Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshine!!

[JoMal]

How many titles did the Lakers win with both Kobe AND the fat slob on the team?

How many since?

I still think the Lakers will move towards another title much sooner without Kobe. All Gasol gives them is possibly a better seeding in the playoffs.

To be even more honest, the Lakers should try to obtain LeBron James at all costs. He is a bigger, better version of Kobe.

The NEW Kobe has impressed me alot, I would not trade him for any other back court player in the league.  The Lakers are title contendors NOW.  They were playoff contendors before Gasol, they are TITLE contendors after Gasol.

LeBron is NOT a better version of Kobe, maybe some day he will be but not TODAY.  That must be a joke!  I would love to see LeBron as a Laker but that will NOT happen at the cost of Kobe, for one Kobe is better and second Kobe still holds his no-trade clause over the Lakers. 

Kobe can score better then LeBron, but that won't always be the case. Otherwise, LeBron is better - right now - offensively, in other areas.

[JoMal]

How many titles did the Lakers win with both Kobe AND the fat slob on the team?

How many since?

I still think the Lakers will move towards another title much sooner without Kobe. All Gasol gives them is possibly a better seeding in the playoffs.

To be even more honest, the Lakers should try to obtain LeBron James at all costs. He is a bigger, better version of Kobe.

The NEW Kobe has impressed me alot, I would not trade him for any other back court player in the league.  The Lakers are title contendors NOW.  They were playoff contendors before Gasol, they are TITLE contendors after Gasol.

LeBron is NOT a better version of Kobe, maybe some day he will be but not TODAY.  That must be a joke!  I would love to see LeBron as a Laker but that will NOT happen at the cost of Kobe, for one Kobe is better and second Kobe still holds his no-trade clause over the Lakers. 

Kobe can score better then LeBron, but that won't always be the case. Otherwise, LeBron is better - right now - offensively, in other areas.

Actually, LeBron even shoots - and scores - better then Kobe, too.

Sorry.

[Laker Fan]

Lebron plays in the pathetic EC, the test would be if he can perform at that level night in and night out in the big bruising WC where double teams and huge front courts change every shot. It's quite a different world in the EC when you you paly weak team every day and can have your way with them.

IMO Kobe is better all around, better defensively and he does what he does in the toughest conference we have ever seen.

Not taking away Lebron's skills just pointing out the dynamics that should be altering perception, but apparently aren't.

[msc]

Sorry.

No need to be sorry, JoMal, that is a very valid take.  One that I don't necessarily disagree with.  Lebron's size and strength make it very difficult to guard him near the basket and as his outside shot has improved, he's even more dangerous on offense.  

We can all debate until we're blue in the face over who's better right now ... it's a toss up, IMO.  I do; however, find it interesting that over the past 6 or 7 years each season the Kobe haters state that Vince Carter/TMac/Wade/Lebron/Insert player de jour here is better than Kobe.  The only thing constant in that argument is Kobe is always in it.  To me, that alone speaks volumes about Kobe.  

[Lurker]

Does that include mortgaging your franchises marketabilty and future success for YEARS to come Lurker? Methinks perhaps you want me to backpeddle but I shan't. I said it before the trade and I will say it yet again, smart move was keeping Kobe and unloading O'neal, now the the Lakers, who mortgaged NOTHING for a shot at a title are now just 2-3 years removed from dumping the Big Slob a serious contender with youth, talent, athleticism, and a bright future, I would say one title shot, which they would NEVER have got had the kept Shaq and dumped Kobe is hardly worth it.

Trading a star for a crippled has-been that had little if anything to do with your ONE title on a celler dwelling team that may well be mired in mediocrity for years to come makes sense to who?

Hmm, title contenders for 5+ years or 1 and done, which would you choose?

Dan...I am sorry that you took that as MY thoughts on the situation.  It is that I have read the mantra so many times that I was trying to get us past the inevitable Reality post.

I agreed at the time that the Lakers made the best move in trading Shaq.  I still believe the Lakers made the best move.


W.O.W/koast - Would I want my team to follow the Miami model?  NO!  NEVER!  One title (which should have never happened - still can't beleive how easy Dallas folded) and less than 2 years later scraping the bottom of the league.

[westkoast]

How many titles did the Lakers win with both Kobe AND the fat slob on the team?

How many since?

I still think the Lakers will move towards another title much sooner without Kobe. All Gasol gives them is possibly a better seeding in the playoffs.

To be even more honest, the Lakers should try to obtain LeBron James at all costs. He is a bigger, better version of Kobe.

The NEW Kobe has impressed me alot, I would not trade him for any other back court player in the league.  The Lakers are title contendors NOW.  They were playoff contendors before Gasol, they are TITLE contendors after Gasol.

LeBron is NOT a better version of Kobe, maybe some day he will be but not TODAY.  That must be a joke!  I would love to see LeBron as a Laker but that will NOT happen at the cost of Kobe, for one Kobe is better and second Kobe still holds his no-trade clause over the Lakers. 

What I should have said is he will be a bigger, better version of Kobe.  You are correct that right now he's not to that level.  Lebron said that himself earlier this year.  He will however come into his own and be a bigger,better version of Kobe IMO.  He can almost do everything Kobe can but he is just missing that killer instinct.  That is coming from Kobe Fan Boy #1 around these parts too.

JoMaL just because Lebron's scoring avg is higher then Kobe's does not mean he's a better scorer.  There is no player in the league that can get as hot as fast as Kobe Bryant.  That is not even debatable at this point in time.

And I have to co-sign Lurker as he did say he thought the trade was smarter for the long term (Shaq/Lakers).  I remember that.

[Laker Fan]

[[/quote]
Dan...I am sorry that you took that as MY thoughts on the situation.  It is that I have read the mantra so many times that I was trying to get us past the inevitable Reality post.
[/quote]


No problem Lurker, although it did sound out of character coming rfom you until I saw your above quoted reason for doing so, the nonsensicleness of it then made perfect sense

[JoMal]

Sorry.

No need to be sorry, JoMal, that is a very valid take.  One that I don't necessarily disagree with.  Lebron's size and strength make it very difficult to guard him near the basket and as his outside shot has improved, he's even more dangerous on offense.  

We can all debate until we're blue in the face over who's better right now ... it's a toss up, IMO.  I do; however, find it interesting that over the past 6 or 7 years each season the Kobe haters state that Vince Carter/TMac/Wade/Lebron/Insert player de jour here is better than Kobe.  The only thing constant in that argument is Kobe is always in it.  To me, that alone speaks volumes about Kobe.  

All too true, msc. If the measuring stick is always the same player, then their must be some validity to his place in NBA history. You are a pretty fart smeller, yourself.

[WayOutWest]

He will however come into his own and be a bigger,better version of Kobe IMO.  He can almost do everything Kobe can but he is just missing that killer instinct.

I will not go as far as that.  Like I posted, LeBron COULD be better than Kobe some day.  It is amazing to see how easily LeBron can score around the basket, you sometimes forget how BIG LeBron really is for a guy playing his position who does what he does on the court.  What is equally amazing is how LeBron will NOT do what he can do in games, I don't put it all on the defense slowing him down, it's more of LeBron slowing himself down.  That leads into the killer instinct you mentioned.  LeBron is definately missing having that each and every night, he shows flashes of that trait but not on a consistent basis.  He has the skills to be a shutdown defender as well but again, not on a consistent basis.

LeBron has a ways to go before he can surpass Kobe, even LeBron knows that, but it is definately very possible and even expected.  We shall see.

[Reality]

I fail to see how pulling this post from TWO YEARS AGO! and pulling only part of it so as to change the context entirely My predictin that Shaq's presense in Miami guarantee's nothing still stands, he had almost NOTHING to do with their title run and when winning time came he disappeared, no easy feat when you're a beached whale, and Mourning took over.

How did it change the context one iota?    Should we get your quotes after Shaq "failed" in 2005 by only making the East Conf Finals?
A center who plays 34 min a game thruout a Finals run has almost "NOTHING" to do with the title?  What lame sour grapes.

As to your "title contending" LA Lakers, you come out of hiding a week after they collude Gasol.
Prior to that they were merely "also rans".
Shaq
1.  EC Finals
2.  Championship
3.  Traded midseason.  So much for "ruining the Heat franchise for 5-10 years" as you Laker b.s.ers claimed.  Deny away.

Kobme
1.  out of playoffs
2.  1st round and gonzo
3.  looking better but took the Gasol collusion to even think about the Finals.

This after you one and all proclaimed "its all about Championships.

[WayOutWest]

Kobme
1.  out of playoffs
2.  1st round and gonzo
3.  looking better but took the Gasol collusion to even think about the Finals.

This after you one and all proclaimed "its all about Championships.

How many times are you going to embarras yourself by displaying your utter lack of b-ball history and knowledge?

[Randy]

I fail to see how pulling this post from TWO YEARS AGO! and pulling only part of it so as to change the context entirely My predictin that Shaq's presense in Miami guarantee's nothing still stands, he had almost NOTHING to do with their title run and when winning time came he disappeared, no easy feat when you're a beached whale, and Mourning took over.

How did it change the context one iota?    Should we get your quotes after Shaq "failed" in 2005 by only making the East Conf Finals?
A center who plays 34 min a game thruout a Finals run has almost "NOTHING" to do with the title?  What lame sour grapes.

As to your "title contending" LA Lakers, you come out of hiding a week after they collude Gasol.
Prior to that they were merely "also rans".
Shaq
1.  EC Finals
2.  Championship
3.  Traded midseason.  So much for "ruining the Heat franchise for 5-10 years" as you Laker b.s.ers claimed.  Deny away.

Kobme
1.  out of playoffs
2.  1st round and gonzo
3.  looking better but took the Gasol collusion to even think about the Finals.

This after you one and all proclaimed "its all about Championships.

Please, this year for Christmas -- ask for a brain!

Nobody ran because of where the Lakers were -- I've been through FAR worse times as a Laker fan (like when Vlade Divac was our best player -- Cedric Ceballos was our best offensive player -- Sedale Threatt was my favorite player -- THOSE were FAR darker days in the history of the Lakers than last year).  I just got tired of your being an idiot all the time -- you suck the fun right out of this board!  It must fill you with a great deal of pride and joy having that distinction!

[westkoast]

Let's get back to what this trade means for PHX....we can save Laker/Kobe talk for the HUNDREDS of threads we have talking about the same crap.

In order for the Suns to be as good as they were then they will need to replace what they subtracted at the very least right?  If they want to be a championship team then they need to improve upon the following numbers/areas as the first step in the right direction.  That means Shaq or the team as a whole need to make up ground.  While some are doable the versatility of Shawn Marion is going to be missed if you think about it.


16 pts per game...Now if the team and sports writers are saying Shaq does not need to score who is going to bring 16 pts each night?  Will Steve Nash, Amare, Grant Hill and Raja Bell all be able to add 2-4 pts to their nightly totals on a consistent basis?  Can the bench bring that?  Can Shaq at least contribute 10-16 a night without getting a number of touches?   Without Marion's 16 a game the Suns go from the best offensive team in the league to one of the worst so obviously the offense is going to have to integrate Shaq pronto.

10 rebounds per game...Something Shaq is very capable of grabbing each night.  One category that should be a wash.

2 assists per game.  Shaq SHOULD get more then 2 assists a game.  Marion is also the guy who makes the pass to the guy who gets the assist.  Something Shaq should be able to do as well.  I'd go as far to say that in the half court Shaq should bring more then Marion did.

2 steals a game...doesn't sound like much but if there were stats for deflections I think this would be more focused in on.  Shaq is not going to steal the ball on a consistent basis.  I don't really see anyone else on the team all the sudden filling that spot of the Suns.  Another area effected by this is the fast break.

1 blocked shot a game...Something Shaq is very capable of doing each night.  Second category that should be a wash if not in Shaq's favor.

Perimeter defense...Worse then it was by far with no answer for this.  Pretty important in a conference that has Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Tony Parker, Baron Davis, Deron Williams, Dirk Nowitski, Chris Paul, etc

3 point shooting...One less threat on the floor.  You trade a threat for a non-threat.  I don't think Shaq creates any more space then Marion can by his ability to break down defenders off the dribble and his own 3 point shooting.  Maybe someone will disagree with me on this one.

Points in the paint...You get a back to the basket guy, someone who can flush dunks but at the same time you miss a player who can finish in the paint on a fast break.  Wash?

Free throw shooting...They will dip into the middle of the pack in FT% after a few weeks with Shaq in there.

Fast break...Not dead but you are trading arguably your best finisher for someone who people are saying shouldn't even bother to run MOST of the time.

Half court..Improved with the additional post threat and having Amare in a more comfortable spot. 

Overall team health...You trade a guy who has missed 82 games in the past few years to a guy who has missed 4 in the same amount of time.


To me it seems like the Suns need to answer how to make up the ground lost by moving Marion first before Shaq starts flashing hardware and pointing at it.

[WayOutWest]

westkoast,

Plain and simple the Spurs, Lakers and Mavs should NOT be able to push the Suns around anymore.  One of the MAJOR down falls of the Suns is how poorly they do on the boards, not from a numbers standpoint but from a size standpoint.  Remember how Kwame actually look good vs the Suns, he looked like the difference maker.  Odom abused Marion inside, Amare is a PF, an athletic one at that, not a center.  The Suns front line does not have the size to keep other teams off the offensive glass.  With Shaq in the middle and Amare at the 4 teams will probably not even TRY half as much, let alone succeed, at trying to hit the offensive boards.

Shaq absolutely was a downgrade for the Suns now but NOT in the playoffs.  While his D will not be a difference maker, his size is going to make it tough for TD, Bynum, Damp, Dirk and others to crash the offensive boards.  IMO we will not TRUELY know how the Shaq deal turns out until the playoffs.

[westkoast]

westkoast,

Plain and simple the Spurs, Lakers and Mavs should NOT be able to push the Suns around anymore.  One of the MAJOR down falls of the Suns is how poorly they do on the boards, not from a numbers standpoint but from a size standpoint.  Remember how Kwame actually look good vs the Suns, he looked like the difference maker.  Odom abused Marion inside, Amare is a PF, an athletic one at that, not a center.  The Suns front line does not have the size to keep other teams off the offensive glass.  With Shaq in the middle and Amare at the 4 teams will probably not even TRY half as much, let alone succeed, at trying to hit the offensive boards.

Shaq absolutely was a downgrade for the Suns now but NOT in the playoffs.  While his D will not be a difference maker, his size is going to make it tough for TD, Bynum, Damp, Dirk and others to crash the offensive boards.  IMO we will not TRUELY know how the Shaq deal turns out until the playoffs.

Why wouldn't they be able to have their way in the post still?  At this point in his career Shaq is not going to be stopping Duncan, Boozer, or Ming.  Then they are decent centers who should have some success against him...Camby, Gasol if he stays at the 5 or a healthy Bynum. 

As far as the Kwame reference...he was a large body that put a hurting on the smaller PHX Suns for one series.  The Spurs, Mavs, and even the Lakers are not going to be attacking them that way.  They don't need to be physical with PHX to get them to slow down a bit.  Shaq does that for them.  Duncan, Ming, and Boozer have the foot work to beat Shaq on the offensive end.  Right now that is not really debatable.  They are rushing his injury just so he can prove he's the man and it's going to be a mistake.  If Odom abused Marion and he's the best defender what will he do to Grant Hill?  When a perimeter player needs to be slowed down who do they stick on them now?  Marion could guard Barion Davis, Kobe Bryant, and Josh Howard.    Aside from Raja Bell there is no decent perimeter defender anymore.  Grant Hill doesn't have the ability to move well enough due to injury.  Boris Diaw doesn't play good defense.  Barbosa plays no defense.  They are essentially trading solid perimeter defense for a small boost in interior defense.  If you think that the perimeter defense is even weaker now there is no reason why you wouldn't assume that there would be more penetration by the opposing teams guards.  Now throw in the fact that Shaq has been a fouling machine almost breaking a record for most games fouled out in a row this year...

When did Amare Stoudamire become a rebounding mad man?  Even if Shaq grabs 12 board a game (above his average for this season) for the remainder of the season they are still horrible on the glass.  Marion averaged 10 a game and I believe they sat dead last in rebounding or were down near the bottom these past 2 years.  That front line is not fearless they still don't play that solid of defense.  Like I said before there is certain things that need to be made up FIRST and then people can start talking about championship/dominating in the playoffs.