Author Topic: Please Don't shoot the messenger!  (Read 5476 times)

Offline rickortreat

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Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« on: August 29, 2007, 03:31:14 AM »
I am sorry to post this here instead of in the appropriate room, but the decline at this juncture in the stock market is very serious.  Yesterday was key, as the Indu's failed to break-out of their downtrend, and today the market fell quite a bit.

If you have money in IRA's and the like, try to move it out of stocks for the time being.  I keep telling you to read jsmineset, since he is far more aware of these problems and issues than a piker like me!

I am now working, and unable to play the markets actively as I would- I owe it to my employer to do my best.  But the truth is one could make a fortune buying puts on the bank stocks- Citi, JPM, Lehmen Bros.  I can't advocate this for any of you since if you don't know what you're doing these things are dangerous to just play with.

One place where you can move your money would be BEARX- a fund that goes up when the market goes down- there are probably better funds to use in this situation, but I do know that one is situation for a downturn.

I am truly sorry to be the bearer of this news, this board is supposed to be about fun and entertainment.  And I apologize for harping so much on these things I see coming, but I would feel worse if I didn't warn you.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2007, 05:28:18 AM »
Booyah!  The boys really pumped the market up today!  But all they did was square the market with the downdraft from the day before.  The trend as yet is STILL DOWN.

I kinda hope they keep the market up.  If they are smart they will push it higher to entice buyers back in.  It would have been far less costly had they done this 2 days ago.

GS was still down for the day, however, Citi was up.  Some think that Citi has more exposure to the bad derivatives than GS.  I don't think even they know how bad it is!

Offline ziggy

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2007, 05:29:05 AM »
Here is a another perspective

We have written repeatedly that the recent turbulence
in financial markets is part of the legacy of an overly
loose monetary policy, a mistake that led to over-leverage
in general with particular excesses in both residential real
estate and the price of financial instruments based on
housing-related cash flows.

Now that the hangover from monetary excess has
settled in, cries for one last drink can be heard up and
down Wall Street: one last drink of the same loose
policies that started the trouble to begin with. Not too
much or for too long, they say; only enough to let them
sober up gradually. That the extra tab for additional
monetary looseness has to be paid by everyone else in our
economy, through higher inflation risk, gives them little
concern.

But instead of giving in by cutting the target federal
funds rate (now 5.25%), Federal Chairman Ben Bernanke
has been orchestrating a protracted intervention, buying
time while firms sober up enough to realize that the Fed is
not coming to their rescue and that the real economy is
doing fine.

Despite all the stories about dysfunctional credit
markets, last week the amount of commercial paper
outstanding issued by domestic non-financial companies
was 38% higher than the same time last year. Meanwhile,
the Baa bond spread over 10-year Treasury Note yields
was 2.1 percentage points versus a ten-year average of
2.3.

In our view, Bernanke’s performance last week is in
the same league as former Fed Chairman Alan
Greenspan’s bold policy gestures to loosen policy in 1987,
1998, and the week after September 11, 2001. Wall Street
just isn’t sober enough yet to know it.

Just what did the Fed do last week? Exactly what it
should have done: almost nothing, except for a shrewd
token gesture.

On Friday the Fed issued two statements. The first
announced that the Fed was cutting the discount rate from
6.25% to 5.75% and extending discount window loans to
as long as 30 days. The discount rate is the interest rate
the Fed charges banks that borrow directly from it.
Meanwhile, the target federal funds rate, the rate banks
charge each other for overnight loans, remains at 5.25%
and the effective funds rate has traded even lower in
recent days.

With the funds rate target still at 5.25%, it is hard to
see any major bank on solid footing going to the Fed
instead of another bank. This despite the Fed convening a
conference call last week to tell major firms that there
should be no embarrassment in accessing credit directly
from the discount window. In this way, the Fed reasserted
its role as the lender of last resort, without having
to take any major action.

The second statement the Fed issued on Friday said
“tighter credit conditions and increased uncertainty have
the potential to restrain economic growth going forward.”
The statement also said “the downside risks to growth
have increased appreciably.”

We draw three conclusions from this latter statement.
First, notice the word “potential” regarding the restraint
on economic growth. In other words, the Fed has yet to
see any actual evidence that growth has slowed.
Second, the Fed will not act due to financial market
pain by itself; it’s focused on whether financial market
pain has a significant negative impact on real economic
growth.

And third, the Fed is ready to shift to a neutral bias at
the September 18 meeting, if a month from now the
markets are still being tossed around.

By that time, we think the markets will have safely
entered rehab, thankful the Fed never gave it that one last
drink.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 05:32:41 AM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline ziggy

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and another perspective
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 05:31:15 AM »
The Fed’s Job

By BRIAN S. WESBURY

Blaming monetary policy for
economic and financial market
turmoil is a time honored tradition.
Maybe the most famous bashing was
in 1896 when William Jennings
Bryan, an original populist, ranted
against hard money and for inflation:
". . . we shall answer their demands
for a gold standard by saying to
them, you shall not press down upon
the brow of labor this crown of
thorns. You shall not crucify
mankind upon a cross of gold."

Monetary policy makes an easy
scapegoat because printing money
(like drinking a cup of coffee) is an
easy way to give an economy a
temporary boost. But if what ails the
economy or markets was not caused
by tight money in the first place, a
temporary boost will not help. It may
cover up the symptoms temporarily,
but in the end it does not solve the
underlying issue (a lack of sleep).
In fact, easy money always leads to
greater problems down the road --
either rising inflation, or a reduced
sensitivity to risk, as markets come
to expect rate cuts to bail them out.

Lately, modern-day William
Jennings Bryans have been loudly
calling on the Fed to cut interest rates
and inject cash into the banking
system. They believe more money
would stop financial markets from
seizing up any further.

This would make sense if money was
already tight -- or to put it another
way, if a lack of liquidity was the
real issue. But trades are clearing,
banks are well capitalized,
commercial and industrial loans are
growing, credit-worthy borrowers are
getting mortgages, and the economy
is still expanding.

This was not the case after 9/11,
when communication lines were cut
to the Bank of New York, a key
clearing house for bond trades. Then,
liquidity injections were clearly
needed. Trades failed and overdrafts
mounted, forcing the Fed to inject
hundreds of billions of dollars into
the banking system.

In contrast, the current turmoil in the
financial markets has nothing to do
with a lack of liquidity. More
importantly, there is little hope that
any liquidity the Fed would inject
into the banking system would
actually get to the sectors of the
market where only sporadic, fire-sale
pricing of securities is taking place.
Some are arguing that a sharp decline
in the three-month Treasury bill
yield, to 3.85% from roughly 5%
during the past few days, shows the
need for a huge infusion of cash that
would force the federal funds rate
down. But the drop in T-bill yields is
a reflection of three issues: a flight to
quality, a guess that the Fed will
lower rates at its next meeting and a
very liquid market.

First, fear and panic has increased
demand for rock-solid Treasury
debt, driving prices up and yields
down. Second, expectations of Fed
rate cuts always push short-term
rates down. But it's a circular
argument to say falling short-term
rates, due to an expectation of Fed
rate cuts, is any reason to cut rates.
Finally, the liquidity already
sloshing around in the banking
system must go somewhere and
right now it is going into the T-bill
market. Low T-bill rates are a
reflection of the liquidity already in
the system, not a clarion call for
more.

The real problem with the financial
markets is that extreme leverage
and extreme uncertainty have met
in the subprime loan market. No
one knows how many loans will go
bad, who owns these mortgages and
what leverage they have applied.
We do know that subprime lending
is just 9% of the $10.4 trillion
dollar mortgage market, and
delinquencies are running at about
18%. The Alt-A market is about 8%
of all mortgages and about 5% of
this debt is delinquent.

As an example, let's take a very low
probability event and assume that
losses triple from here. Let's
assume that 54% of all subprime
loans and 15% of all Alt-A loans
actually move to foreclosure. Then,
assume that lenders are able to
recover 50% of the value of their
loans. In this scenario, total losses
in the subprime market would be
27%, while total losses in Alt-A
would be 7.5%.

From this we can estimate a price for
the securitized pools of these assets.
Without doing any actual adjustment
for yields, or for different tranches of
this debt, the raw value of the
underlying assets would be 73 cents
on the dollar for subprime pools and
92.5 cents for the Alt-A pools.
Getting a bid on this stuff should be
easy, right? After all, the market
prices risky assets every day.

But this is the rub. A hedge fund, or
financial institution, that uses
leverage of 4:1 or more, would be
wiped out if it sold subprime bonds
at those levels. A 27% loss on Main
Street turns into a 100% loss on Wall
Street very easily. But because hedge
funds can slow down redemptions, at
least for awhile, and because they are
trying desperately not to implode,
they hold back from the market. At
the same time, those with cash smell
blood in the water, patiently wait,
and put low-ball bids on risky bonds.
The result: No market clearing price
in the leveraged, asset-backed
marketplace.

Additional Fed liquidity can't fix this
problem. An old phrase from the
1970s comes to mind -- "pushing on
a string." In the 1970s, no matter
how much money the Fed pushed
into the system, it could not create a
sustainable economic recovery that
did not include a surge in inflation
because high tax rates and significant
government interference in the
economy prevented true gains in
productivity.

There is a lesson here. Populism is in
the air these days, and the threat from
tax hikes, trade protectionism and
more government involvement in the
economy, is rising. This reduces the
desire to take risk. Congress is
working on a legislative response to
current mortgage market woes as
well. And as with the savings and
loan industry (forcing S&Ls to sell
junk bonds at fire-sale prices), and
Sarbanes-Oxley, the legislative
response almost always compounds
the problems.

The interaction of an uncertain
regulatory and tax environment with
a highly leveraged, illiquid market
for risky mortgage debt creates
conditions that look just like an
economy-wide liquidity crisis. But
it's not. A few rate cuts will not help.
What can help is more certainty. Tax
cuts, or at least a promise not to raise
taxes, and immunity - or at least a
safe harbor from criminal
prosecution for above-board
institutions in the mortgage business
- could help loosen up a rigid market
in a more permanent way than
sending out the helicopters to dump
cash in the marketplace.

The best the Fed can do is to stand at
the ready to contain the damage. In
this vein, their decision to cut the
discount rate and allow a broad list
of assets to be used as collateral for
loans to banks, was a brilliant
maneuver. It increases confidence
that the Fed has liquidity at the
ready, but does not create more
inflationary pressures. It was a
helping hand, not a bailout.

It also buys some time, which is what
the markets need. Every additional
month of payment information on
mortgage pools, and every mortgage
that is refinanced from an adjustable
rate to a fixed rate, will increase
certainty and provide more clarity on
pricing.

Even though many, including Alan
Greenspan, continue to argue that the
excessively easy monetary policy of
2001-2004 was necessary, it was this
policy stance that caused the
problems we face today. The current
financial market stress is a result of
absurdly low interest rates in the
past, not high interest rates today.
In fact, current interest rates are still
low on both a nominal and real
basis. Cutting them again causes a
further misallocation of resources,
and makes the Fed an enabler of the
highly leveraged.

What William Jennings Bryan was
really complaining about in 1896
was falling commodity prices,
especially falling farm prices. What
he and the other populists ignored
was that these prices were falling
because of productivity, not tight
money. His "Cross of Gold" speech
was a clear stepping stone to the
creation of the Fed in 1913. Since
then, inflation has been much
higher than it would have been
under the gold standard. But all that
inflation never did save the family
farm.

Similarly, even very easy money
today can't put off the day of
reckoning for subprime mortgage
holders who bought homes with no
money down and thought interest
rates would stay low forever. It
can't help overly leveraged
investors who thought they were
getting risk-free 20% annual
returns. Providing enough liquidity
to allow markets to function, while
keeping consumer prices as stable
as possible, is the best the Fed can
do. It should be all we really ask.


Mr. Wesbury is chief economist at
First Trust Advisors L.P. in Lisle, Ill.
Reprinted with permission of the
Wall Street Journal © 2007 Dow
Jones and Company, Inc. All
Rights Reserved.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 05:35:16 AM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline Lurker

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 04:56:18 PM »
A small little exercise to show how bad financial stocks are...

Wachovia   5.25% dividend yield
Citigroup    4.60%
Bank of Amer  5.05%
Chase/JP Morgan  3.45% - this is lower due to the high exposure of investment banking and brokerage

Most pure banking stocks are paying higher yields on dividends than they are for deposits.  And all of these stocks generate free cash flow in excess of the dividend rate.  So if you have excess cash it is better to buy bank stocks than invest in certificates of deposit or T-Bills.  And a price decrease doesn't hurt unless you plan to sell the stocks...but holding them for 2-3 years should realize not only a steady higher return than treasury based investments but provide protection of capital if not a gain.

Then there is the entire tax aspect...dividends are taxed at a maximum rate of 15%.  Interest is taxed at your marginal rate...most likely 25-30%.  If you are below the 25% marginal rate then dividends are taxed at 5%.

       
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2007, 01:56:04 AM »
It's easy to pay a dividend when you are a bank with an unlimited line of credit!

What no-one realizes is, IT IS NOT THE SUBPRIME MORTAGES that are the problem.  The problem is far worse than anyone realizes because it involves unmarketed, untradeable, impossible to properly value derivative instruments based on interest rates.

These instruments are not regulated at all, they are side agreements between lenders and borrowers and third parties selling a type of insurance.  They are only as good as the ability of the writer to pay off!

No amount of liquidity injected by the Fed can save these derivatives from causing severe distress to the Citi's, JPM's GS's etc.  Mind you, while no one questioned them, they contributed greatly to the profits at these entities.  But now, no one knows just how much they are on the hook for, and investors can't tolerate the uncertainty.  GS stock price went from $230 down to below $160 in about 7 weeks.  Citi went from $54 to $45.  Sure you get a nice dividend, but the value of your portfolio has been decimated in the process.

Incidentally, it doesn't look like they're done going down either. Things could go from a minor correction to an all-out crash with a little more bad news.

Nothing the Fed can do can save these institutions from their derivative games, not without destroying the dollar.  These banks are too big to fail, so they are inclined to take excessive risks, relying on the government and the taxpayer to bail them out. Save them, and they will be at it again tomorrow.  Let them fall and the liquidity squeeze kills the economy. Between a rock and hard place, it's easy to blame the Fed, but the Fed doesn't set trade policy and it doesn't tell the banks not to write derivatives.

The Indu's went down again today, when they needed to go up to paint the charts.  The uncertainty in the market can easily be replaced by fear and panic.  Ben Bernake does not inspire great confidence.

Offline Reality

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2007, 02:20:13 AM »
I am truly sorry to be the bearer of this news, this board is supposed to be about fun and entertainment.  And I apologize for harping so much on these things I see coming, but I would feel worse if I didn't warn you
;D You didn't say gold is a can't miss and buy it today so I'm good.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 04:08:35 AM »
Gold is trendless right now.  I guarantee you that if you buy now, 6 months from now you will be exstatic at the price increase,  but it isn't time just yet.  In fact, I am far more concerned about a market decline at this point, which will take gold stocks down to absurdly low levels, which will make for a much more profitable trade and make you very pissed off at me in the short-term!

Read this article from the street.com carefully,  there's a lot of good info in there and a very strange options play going on:  http://tinyurl.com/2moup7


And a couple of gems from: http://www.jsmineset.com/
 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 04:14:51 AM by rickortreat »

Offline Lurker

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2007, 05:37:27 AM »
It's easy to pay a dividend when you are a bank with an unlimited line of credit!


If you honestly believe this then there is no hope to educate you on the real way the world works.  Banks do NOT have unlimited lines of credit.  And all of those dividend yields are FULLY funded by free cash flow.

Here is a solid quote for you, Rick...you should reflect on it deeply.

Paranoia will destroy ya.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2007, 01:25:59 AM »
Lurker,

If you think banks don't have an unlimited supply of credit, and by Banks, I mean the JPM's. BOA. CITI and the others, then tell me where money comes from and how it is created.

I have worked with people in all sorts of Businesses.  Accountants, Lawyers, Doctors, Insurance Company's, Pharmaceutical firms.  And, no one I ever spoke with in any of those places knew anything about how money is created.

So answer me this:

How is money created and who makes it?

Who owns the entity that makes money in the US?

If the US Dollar is the world's currency, who benefits from that and why?

And, historically has money always been this way, or is the way that money is created in the 20th and 21st centuries after 1913, an entirely new thing?

Offline Reality

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2007, 09:10:42 AM »
Rick you should know by now Kareem produces all money.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2007, 08:23:50 PM »
Now is the time to buy Gold.  Soon it will break-out above it's old peak of $730.  It is currently at $682.  This is an evaluation based on Technical Analysis- which is simply the study of price behavior, which is simply the study of the choices of players in the markets.  It is always the same, because people are always the same.

Gold has been in a consolidation pattern ever since it hit $730, and that was May of 2006. Since that time, it hasn't gone any higher on a successive peak than $698.

In a bull market, whenever you see such a pattern, when it completes, the price rises at an extreme rate and it appears that we are now entering such a phase.

The root cause of this is Lurker's beloved banks with their derivatives. The following is copied from jsmineset.com  which any of you who have any money at all should read daily.  He does not spin and does not pull punches.  He calls it the way he sees it, and he sees far more clearly than most.

Dear CIGAs,

It is not just coming - it is already here.

I am convinced that all that has been anticipated since 1968 has now occurred. I see the mountain of over-the-counter derivatives which, when including all types, exceeds USD$30 trillion. The mountain is shaking quite badly.

The situation now resembles the Weimar Republic (the term given to describe the German state from 1919-33) in the sense that the Weimar case study is predicated on planned currency destruction to avoid war reparations that got out of control.

The present situation is based on the ultimate sin of greed called over-the-counter derivatives. This mountain of unfunded special performance contracts is shaking and will, as a product of declining US business activity and profits, fall precipitously.

Before the fall of this unimaginably large mountain of garbage paper, ALL world central banks will in concert prime the pump any way they can. Priming for this purpose has no practical way of being drained. What is going to get out of control now is monetary inflation to offset the shaking mountain of over-the-counter derivatives. The beginning of this fall is in progress and will be history by 2012 or SOONER.

Simply stated this is it, today, now! Think the best but protect yourself under a worst case scenario.

There is no more "if this happens that will happen" scenario. It has already started to happen and the result will be a bull market for all commodities to a level that even the wildest (rational) bull cannot not even imagine. The dollar is headed below the estimates of the biggest (rational) bear.

I take what is said here very seriously. What I have just said, I have never uttered before.

The over-the-counter shaking mountain of derivatives can't be fixed by trying to hide it. The problems cannot be fixed by any interest rate action. The problem will not even be fixed by a monetary inflation of unprecedented scope. The problem is coming home by 2012 or much SOONER.

Keep in mind that the $20 trillion plus over-the-counter credit and default derivatives generally have the following characteristics.

They are:

   1. Without regulation.
   2. Without listing on public exchanges.
   3. Without standards.
   4. Not in the least bit transparent.
   5. Without an open market of the bid/ask type.
   6. Dealt in by private treaty negotiations.
   7. Without a clearing house.
   8. Unfunded without financial guarantee of any kind.
   9. Functioning as contracts of specific performance.
  10. Of a character or ability to perform that is totally dependent on the balance sheet of the loser in the arrangement.
  11. Evaluated by computer assumptions made by geeks, non-market experienced mathematicians who assume religiously that all markets return to their normal relationships regardless of disruptions.
  12. Now in the credit and default category and are considered by accepted authorities as totaling more than USD$20 trillion in notional value.
  13. Notional value becomes real value when the agreement is forced to find a real market for ending the obligation which is how one sells it.


The reason people will run to physical gold is that it is a commodity and an element, which cannot be consumed.  All it does is sit there, looking pretty.  It cannot be manufactured, only mined and refined.  All commodities will also rise, bringing inflation to everything and anything that people need and can pay for.

There is no protection from the derivative meltdown other than in commodities.  Jim's reference to the Weimar Republic shows that this type of nonsense has happened before. The only reason it is happening again is that people fail to learn, and start to take risks that no financially well-grounded person would ever take.

You can speculate in Gold stocks to make money, as they will rise along with the metal.  Silver will go higher on a percentage basis and is also worth holding.  Holding physical is a pain, but it is the ultimate expression of safety.  US Silver coins from before 1965 (do not pay a premium for coins in fine condition, only for the silver content) are going to be an exceptional investment since they contain specific amounts of silver in small enough denominations to be useful in trade and barter.  Gold coins and bars will be too valuable and worth too much to be useful to buy gas or groceries.

If you want to blame someone for what is comming, blame the banks and the Fed.  It was them that undermined money, and made people suckers for accepting paper instead of metal. It was they who invented these derivatives and lobbyed successfully to keep them unregulated.  It's like the farmer who allows the fox to guard the henhouse.

If Jim's reading is correct, we are beyond the point of no-return.  The proverbial Shit has hit the fan.
 

Offline Lurker

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2007, 09:15:14 AM »
Rick,

I'll try one more time but I would bet that I could convince a brick wall that it was cardboard first.

The banks did not create the derivatives.  They were created by the brokerage houses who in turn sold them to hedge funds and investors who were looking for larger returns than the market.  And even though some banks own brokerage arms they are not the culprits.  Here is a quick question: how many banks have reported operating losses since the mortgage meltdown?  Short answer - none.  In fact they are still generating positive cash flow - one of the best indicators of a viable business.

It is the hedge funds (large investment pools for highly qualified investors) and brokerage houses (your precious GS that you hold up as representing all banks; even though it is not a bank) that held derivatives directly that were effected.  Banks by regulation cannot hold these type of investments.

A big part of your problem is that you are hung up on currency as being the medium of exchange.  You can name whatever you want to be the medium of exchange...Sixer tickets, cow chips, or little electronic bytes stored on a mass computer...but the same result will happen if central governments don't work to stabilize the value.  As far as creating more & more "currency" as needed that cannot work.  It will destabilize the "currency" - just look back at the Peso devaluation and the Yaun crisis.  And using gold as the medium of exchange won't solve the problem.  It just changes the medium which still needs to be stabilized by the world governments.

At this point gold is just another commodity.  Like oil, grains, pork bellies, etc.  It only holds as much value as someone is willing to exchange it for.  If the current monetary system were to collapse (then where would your precious gold be - it isn't like you actually have the bullion in your possession) and you actually did have gold what would it buy you?  Do you think the grocery store down the street will take it?  What if the grocer doesn't need gold but wants your car in order for him to give you food?   Now you have gold & food but no car.  And to get a ride back to your house the cab driver won't accept your gold either because he doesn't have a use for it.  He wants you to give him a full gas can.  Now you need to find someone with a full gas can that will accept your gold.  Do you even glimpse the potential problem if governments allow the monewetary system to collapse around the world?
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2007, 10:10:29 AM »
Lurker, the depression era regulations that separtated banks from brokerages and insurance companies has all but been swept away, largly by heavy lobbying by the banks.

You are right that they are separate entities, but they are owned by the same people, and have the same directors on their boards in many instances.  Many banks are counterparties to these derivatives as you well know, which is why banks in Europe who invested in subprime US loans.

I am not hung up on currency as a means of exchange.  I am well aware of the history of money, and gold's role.  Gold solves some problems and creates others, but the thing about Gold is that no one can turn on a printing press and create more- so it is implicitly more honest than fiat currency.

Every major country involved in international trade is inflating their currency right now.  And the expansion of money aggregates is extremely high- on the order of a 10% increase or more in some currencies. A gold standard would prevent that, and would have prevented China from expanding as rapidly as it has, undermining American business in the process.

The reason I am focused on Gold and Silver and the companies that mine these metals, is that they will rise exponentially in price as the inflation comming down the road starts to impact consumers.  We have already experienced seriious inflation in home prices and gasoline, but it is now going to start to impact food prices- wheat is now trading at limit up on the futures exchange- the costs to produce wheat have gone up and the demand is much greater now that China has the money to buy the stuff.

The monetary system is in severe danger of a collapse- you probably understand that the difference between credit and money has been blurred to the point where one can't tell the difference- the fractional reserve system is designed to expand continuously or collapse.  As debt gets paid- the credit dissapears and so does the money, so inflation is inherent in this type of system- which I suspect is rapidly approaching it's limits.

I look at Gold as a vehicle for speculation- not for spending.  People should understand that keeping their savings in Dollars or any other fiat currency at this point is not safe.  Gold or silver would be much better, and now is the time.  They will of course have to reconvert back into dollars at least until no one is willing to take them!

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Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2007, 10:39:34 AM »
I look at Gold as a vehicle for speculation- not for spending.  People should understand that keeping their savings in Dollars or any other fiat currency at this point is not safe.  Gold or silver would be much better, and now is the time.  They will of course have to reconvert back into dollars at least until no one is willing to take them!

The first line contradicts the balance of the paragraph.  Speculating in metals isn't any different than speculating in dollar based instruments like stocks or bonds.  You are just betting that price as measured in dollars will increase faster than inflation.  If you are just going to convert the investment in gold back to dollars then you haven't changed anything.  You buy $200 of gold and sell it in six months for $220 which works out to a 20% gain.  Congrats.  I buy $200 of bank stock and receive $5 of dividends and sell in 6 months for $220.  Who is ahead?
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues