Author Topic: Please Don't shoot the messenger!  (Read 5584 times)

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 05:58:01 PM »
The first line contradicts the balance of the paragraph.  Speculating in metals isn't any different than speculating in dollar based instruments like stocks or bonds.  You are just betting that price as measured in dollars will increase faster than inflation.  If you are just going to convert the investment in gold back to dollars then you haven't changed anything.  You buy $200 of gold and sell it in six months for $220 which works out to a 20% gain.  Congrats.  I buy $200 of bank stock and receive $5 of dividends and sell in 6 months for $220.  Who is ahead?


Under that example you would be ahead Lurker, that's basic math.

However, Gold went up from $682 to $696 today, and that's just for starters.  GG, one of my favorite stocks was up 7.5% today alone.  One could have gained better than a 100% increase on GG stock options today.  GG also pays a dividend, although not yet on the order of your bank stocks.

There are two aspects to this that people need to understand.  The first is that the derivative mess as was posted above, places Central Banks in a dilemma.  Banks are holding loans that may not be paid, and they have insurance in the form of derivatives to protect them from the default.  The problem is, the counterparties to these agreements may end up being able to fulfill their obligation which means the bank is stuck with the loss.  So many banks are becoming so risk averse that the short term Capital Markets are locking up, for fear that if they loan that money they will never get it back!

Defaults on loans destroy money, as fractional reserve depends on expansion of the money supply.  If there are defaults on the level of the notational value of these derivatives, instead of inflation we will have a deflationary collapse.

Without short-term financing many businesses will be unable to meet their obligations and will go under.  The whole basis for the economy is being undermined by the fear over these OTC derivatives.  CB's can lower rates through the discount window, but banks won't even borrow that money for fear of lending it to someone who may actually be insolvent.

If the CB's decide to cover the losses, the inflation from making good on all these loans will create a tsunami of inflation akin to the Weimar days.  If they don't banks and broker firms will implode and so will the businesses that depend on them.

Gold is real money, because it cannot be counterfeited or printed into worthlessness. Every time in history that a country abandoned Gold, their currency failed and became worthless.  We are in uncharted territory since all countries are now fiat based.

Then there is the question of what happens if your brokerage becomes insolvent. Getting your stocks back from them may be quite difficult if they go under.  Having a few pieces of Gold may end up being the only thing one owns that is worth anything.

Ultimately, one has to put their savings into a vehicle which grows faster than inflation or are more secure than other vehicles.  Fear for savings will force people into gold and silver and mining stocks, since they are time-honored hedges against perceived inflation, and even though Americans may be ignorant of financial history, the rest of the world isn't.

This is why China is buying gold from Europe's Central Banks.  In the end, repudiation of fiat will demand alternatives, and the public will demand money that is not based on debt, as fiat is.
 

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2007, 09:05:12 AM »
But Rick who do you think holds the majority of the gold reserves?  Central banks.

It is great that your gold stocks jumped 7-8% yesterday.  When they drop the same amount today will you be any further ahead?   Since all you are doing is speculating that the price of gold as a commodity will rise faster than other dollar based instruments then you are nothing more than a market timer.  And moving in and out of options is the same thing...you are trying to time a jump/drop in the price of an exchanged traded commodity.  You are just using gold as your preferred target.  Others use oil, others stocks, others currency exchange rates and still others pork bellies.  There isn't any fundamental meltdown of the world markets that makes your preferred vehicle any better or worse than another.  You buy gold stocks or even an EFT that holds  bullion...but that in itself is relying on the world currency markets to maintain a stable environment so that you can cash in your bet.  If the system collapses under the weight of the subprime mess who is going to buy those gold stocks that you hold?  Because you are not actually buying gold itself and holding it.  You are buying a piece of paper that is only as solid as the underlying markets on which that paper trades.

As an example...I have moved in & out of telecommunication stocks over the past few months.  Specifically Verizon & ATT.  I have seen 7-8% jumps in as little as 2-4 days.  I also have seen them move sideways for extended periods of time.  But this is still speculating and is as sure of a thing as betting on sporting events.  Your betting on gold isn't any different. 

Disclaimer:  The money I "speculate" with is not serious money but just a small amount set aside for this purpose.  To me this money is any different than the money I would walk into a casino with...or spend on extravagances.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2007, 06:16:45 PM »
Lurker,  I am more than just a small time market player.  When I say gold is going up, I mean any dope can buy and will make money.  The current process that is taking place now is extremely serious.  Gold is going up because the Dollar broke below 80 on it's DX index - which is based on a basket value of our other trading partners.  This is significant, because it has held above 80 for about 20 years, and has now broken though support.

So while you are speculating in stocks that may go up a few percent- they got smashed today, didn't they?  Gold stocks held their own, and some went up.  Gold went from $670 to $700 this week, and it's just getting started.  I would suggest people who don't have the time or inclination to play the markets, but USERX or UNWPX- two mutual funds that invest in gold stocks.

If anyone is interested in seeing my charts, go to cometgold.com and look for posts under my name in the forum section.  There is an entry there called Gold up today, and I posted several charts from 4 years ago to present to show the long-term trend and the coiling consolidation pattern.  The last time gold did this it went from $430 to $730 in 9 months.  The current consolidation has lasted almost 16 months and on the current path will top $1000 before the end of this year.

The dollar will continue to drop and gold will continue to rise.  It is inevitable,thanks to the CB's inflationary policies, and the asinine willingness of banks to finance no-money down mortgages.  Either the CB's save the banks from the derivative defaults and revive the Commercial Paper market, or we fall into a depression like the 30's. I predict inflation, of course.

Before this process is over Gold will eventually reach $1600 or even higher, no later than 2012, and probably sooner.

Check out a chart of the $indu vs. $gold and you will understand why this is the no-brainer trade of this decade!

If it wasn't for central banks holding gold, it wouldn't be worth anything.  They know in the end, that gold will come out on top.  Now you all know it too!

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2007, 09:24:50 AM »
If it wasn't for central banks holding gold, it wouldn't be worth anything.  They know in the end, that gold will come out on top.  Now you all know it too!

And if gold comes out on top AND per your earlier posts the entire banking system is tied to the central banks THEN holding banks stocks are a better bet.  First they will naturally rise with the price of gold (because their asset values rise) and secondly they will profit off all the traders who think they can time and out maneuver the market.  Brokerages love times of market turmoil when traders think they can move quickly in & out of sectors to get the best return.  Every trade carries a commission and the financial institutions are the ones collecting the fees.

Rick, the basic difference is that you are looking at making a short, quick killing.  I am looking for long term results.  In the end history has shown that those positioned for long term prospects eventually come out on top.  Gold may run up this month, oil next month and comsumer staples the month after that.  But in the long run history has proved that researching your investments to buy quality, minimize expenses and diversify wins out over market timing or chasing the hot picks of the day.

And then there is the whole irony of the fact that you are using the system to try to profit off the collapse of that system.  I still would like to know if the system collapses as you so fervently believe then how will you cash in your profits?  Because you will not actually be holding gold.  You will only being holding pieces of paper (actually electronic bytes) that WILL NOT BE REDEEMABLE IF THE ENTIRE WORLDWIDE BANKING SYSTEM COLLAPSES.  If you truly feel the system will collapse then you should be running to your local gun shop...because gold will mean nothing if someone with a bigger gun comes along and takes it from you.  Just check out your comments in the other thread to see where this conclusion comes from.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2007, 06:45:34 PM »
Lurker your post is very valid, and it does concern me very much how to protect myself.  Some physical gold and silver is desirable to hold, and of course, you will have to think very carefully of how to protect it.

I don't think the rule of law will go out the window.  The people at the top are very much tied to having paper currency remain worthwhile- if they had to pay wages in real gold, they would run out and end up out of power.  There will be a concerted effort to maintain liquidity at all costs- which is what makes Gold a no-brainer, and why I recommend it even to people who are concerned about saving for their retirement.

At the same time, it is Central Banks that hold the gold, most of the Investment firms hold short of gold derivatives as do the bullion banks.  Many gold companies hold these derivatives as well, and after this rise, those companies will go bankrupt as their derivatives will adversely affect their bottom line.

The problem with all of the OTC derivatives is that there is no transparency and no clearing house, your bank may hold mortgages and have purchased insurance against their defaults.  You may find that your bank depends on the solvency of counter-parties who will owe your bank.  You may find your bank out of business when the counter-party is unable to meet their obligations.

The entire OTC market is estimated at over 30 Trillion dollars.  Considering the world's GNP is a fraction of that, we are living in an extremely precarious financial situation.

I am diversified, that is, I don't have all my eggs in one basket.  I have funds that go up when the market goes down, and I have mutual funds that invest in Gold mining shares.

Buy and hold investing is for suckers!  The age of investing and depending on regular dividend checks as in the old days is gone. 

The only way to make real money in the market is to trade options on a short-term basis.  I open and close trades on the same day and make well over 20% per trade including commissions.  Options have a time component that works against you and by trading in and out, you avoid being hurt by that.

Most people are not able to trade that way- it took me a great deal of time, effort and thought to develop my strategy.  The problem is where to put the money that I make- I always reserve some of what I make, since there is always the possibility of being on the wrong side of a trade, or being unable to cover quickly enough.

The point is, at this time there are very few "safe" places to keep your money, any brokerage or bank could become insolvent and lock up your funds.  I think certain mining stocks will do very well.  If we actually end up in a Weimar type situation, all stocks will rise very rapidly.  If we have a crash- a distinct possibility at this time, I am concerned that gold stocks will go down with everything else at least at first. 

As I make more, I will end up putting more of my money outside of the US to give myself a better shot at keeping some of it.  It is good to be prepared for the worst, even if it doesn't happen.

Cycle analysis suggests the stock market should go up in the third year of a Presidency. The volatility and price movements in the general market indicate that there are other factors on traders minds.  It won't take much to induce them to panic- Fridays, 250 pt. drop was exactly the type of movement that puts the current bull market in doubt.  Today's minor recovery even at it's highest intraday point still didn't break out of the current downtrend.  If any of you are still in the general market and it goes down from today's level, It would be wise to take profits and cash out.

Offline Lurker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 08:11:37 AM »
Rick, I don't disagree with your facts in regard to how the system works and who ultimately controls it.  However I just don't share your chicken little view of it.  In fact I see the system as a great thing...it allows people like you & me to rise above the financial station that we were born into.  No longer is the only path to wealth being lucky enough to be born into the right family.  By taking the fruits of our labor and being able to use the investment tools available we are able to increase our wealth by more than just the "sweat of our brow".  The system has evolved to allow this.  It will continue to evolve and grow...the "money" in contol has a vested interest in the system remaining viable.

The entire OTC market is estimated at over 30 Trillion dollars.  Considering the world's GNP is a fraction of that, we are living in an extremely precarious financial situation.

The only way to make real money in the market is to trade options on a short-term basis.  I open and close trades on the same day and make well over 20% per trade including commissions.  Options have a time component that works against you and by trading in and out, you avoid being hurt by that.

This again points out the irony of your stand.  The derivative market, in your estimation, is pushing the world economy into precarious position.  Then you claim the only way to get ahead is to use the granddaddy of all derivatives (options) to make your money.  In short you are PART of the problem.  If no one used derivatives then they would go away.

As far as making 20% on trades...more power to you.  Assuming you make 20% a month then simple math would say that if you reinvest just half of those profits you would double your money every 7 months.  Or in just 3 years you could turn $2,500 into $80,000.  However over the years I have seen many sophisticated investors (and even some brokers) think that they can do the same.  In the end they always seem to forget the 10-15 trades that resulted in small % losses that eat away at the 20% success stories.


Buy and hold investing is for suckers!  The age of investing and depending on regular dividend checks as in the old days is gone. 

Well, I agree & disagree with this comment.  I would not advocate buy & hold...but a on going monitoring of one's positions.  A stock may look great today (under whatever parameters that one uses - I have my own system as you obviously do) but things change.  For example, a few years ago I bought Caterpillar when it was hammered down and yielding close to 4% dividend.  Four years later the price caught up with the underlying principles of the company and I cashed out with a over 100% gain + 4 years worth of dividends.

So Rick, I think our difference is not in how the system works but whether it is good or evil.  IMO the system works well and, if one has the inclination, can be studied, analyzed and put to work in one's favor.  We do have different approaches on how to utilize the system to our benefit but we are both using it.  You just rant about how horrible it is and that it will collapse under it's own excess.

BTW for those who are not financially inclined to be more involved than just automatically adding to your retirment savings I would suggest reading some of the articles on this site: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/scottburns/columns/2007/vitindex.html


Scott Burns is a financial writer for a Dallas newspaper.  For anyone who is not interested in being deeply involved in managing their investments daily or weekly he has some sound ideas.  Of course, if you believe that the entire system is poised for collapse in the next 2-3 years then you should be buying guns and gold jewelry because any "investment" that is only traded on a market will lose all value in a collapse.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 06:46:15 PM »
Rick, I don't disagree with your facts in regard to how the system works and who ultimately controls it.  However I just don't share your chicken little view of it.  In fact I see the system as a great thing...it allows people like you & me to rise above the financial station that we were born into.  No longer is the only path to wealth being lucky enough to be born into the right family.  By taking the fruits of our labor and being able to use the investment tools available we are able to increase our wealth by more than just the "sweat of our brow".  The system has evolved to allow this.  It will continue to evolve and grow...the "money" in contol has a vested interest in the system remaining viable.

All you say is true.  The computer age has really given the average joe a much better chance to learn "how  to play the game" and win.

The entire OTC market is estimated at over 30 Trillion dollars.  Considering the world's GNP is a fraction of that, we are living in an extremely precarious financial situation.

The only way to make real money in the market is to trade options on a short-term basis.  I open and close trades on the same day and make well over 20% per trade including commissions.  Options have a time component that works against you and by trading in and out, you avoid being hurt by that.

This again points out the irony of your stand.  The derivative market, in your estimation, is pushing the world economy into precarious position.  Then you claim the only way to get ahead is to use the granddaddy of all derivatives (options) to make your money.  In short you are PART of the problem.  If no one used derivatives then they would go away.

No Irony- remember the derivatives I'm talking about are private party ones, that no-one outside the two parties can bid on or value in the open market.  There is no transparancy, they are highly complex and take a doctorate's degree in finance to have a hope of understanding.  They have no clearing house and no regulation.  By contrast the options I trade are regulated, do have a clearing house and are valued on an open market. They are also easy enough that anyone who takes a bit of time can understand.  Even someone with only a high school education.

As far as making 20% on trades...more power to you.  Assuming you make 20% a month then simple math would say that if you reinvest just half of those profits you would double your money every 7 months.  Or in just 3 years you could turn $2,500 into $80,000.  However over the years I have seen many sophisticated investors (and even some brokers) think that they can do the same.  In the end they always seem to forget the 10-15 trades that resulted in small % losses that eat away at the 20% success stories.

Not 20% a month, more like 20% a day!  Everyday there must be at least 20 different options that will net you at least a 20% gain, after you pay the commission fee and the fee for the options. As an example, I told my sister to buy GG 27.50 calls 3 days ago when they were available on the ask for $40 per contract.  Yesterday at the close, they were $60 for the bid.  That's a little less than 50% with the round-trip commissions, but you get the idea.  If the people who owed me money, paid me, I'd have enough to not have to work.  As it is, I was forced to take a job, but I like the work and it's good to get out of the house every once in a while.  As soon as I build up a war-chest, I won't need to do anything but trade and work on my tan!

Buy and hold investing is for suckers!  The age of investing and depending on regular dividend checks as in the old days is gone. 

Well, I agree & disagree with this comment.  I would not advocate buy & hold...but a on going monitoring of one's positions.  A stock may look great today (under whatever parameters that one uses - I have my own system as you obviously do) but things change.  For example, a few years ago I bought Caterpillar when it was hammered down and yielding close to 4% dividend.  Four years later the price caught up with the underlying principles of the company and I cashed out with a over 100% gain + 4 years worth of dividends.

So Rick, I think our difference is not in how the system works but whether it is good or evil.  IMO the system works well and, if one has the inclination, can be studied, analyzed and put to work in one's favor.  We do have different approaches on how to utilize the system to our benefit but we are both using it.  You just rant about how horrible it is and that it will collapse under it's own excess.

BTW for those who are not financially inclined to be more involved than just automatically adding to your retirment savings I would suggest reading some of the articles on this site: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/scottburns/columns/2007/vitindex.html


Scott Burns is a financial writer for a Dallas newspaper.  For anyone who is not interested in being deeply involved in managing their investments daily or weekly he has some sound ideas.  Of course, if you believe that the entire system is poised for collapse in the next 2-3 years then you should be buying guns and gold jewelry because any "investment" that is only traded on a market will lose all value in a collapse.

[/quote]

I'm very afraid that what is happening will be beyond anyone's control to manage and will ruin the whole game.  The market's depend on liquidity- to help them go up, and without a regular infusion of cash-either by people making extra money that they can put into the market, or money lent by investment banks.  The potential for the derivatives I'm concerned with creating a severe credit squeeze will hurt the stock market, and more importantly the businesses on Main street, who rely on the Commercial paper market to help with cash flow issues.

Currently the Indu's look ok after all, they did manage to make the charts turn up, at least for now.  GS had a great day today as did a few other investment banks.  Still the Dollar falling below 80 on it's index is quite ominous, and Gold over $700 should serve as a warning to everyone that things are not going well.  In fact, the entire world's currencies are now loosing ground to gold, even though it's fallen back a few bucks the last few days.  Expect gold to flirt with $700 for a bit longer, but after a few months, it will head towards and above $850.

Caterpillar was a great play a while back, and you were smart to buy it.  I like the US companies that actually make things that they can sell to the world, Cat, 3M, a couple others.  But the big story will be commodities, as China and India keep building out infrastructure, and spend money on food. Wheat going up limit is reflective of higher demand, and some supply problems. 

Since the average investor doesn't play the short side, they will be at a severe disadvantage in a downturn.  Just watch the housing market and US automakers, if they start faltering watch out.  Economies either expand or contract- there is no steady-state.

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2007, 07:17:01 PM »
Here is a projected chart for Gold from Jim Sinclair's site:

http://www.jsmineset.com/cwsimages/Miscfiles/5159_AngelChart.pdf

It projects the gold price for the next 4 years, based on whatever analysis Jim uses.  He is right more often than not, but the chart will prove itself or fail to, as time progresses.

Gold going up means the value of the dollar is going lower.  To protect your money, Gold is a good bet, but not necessarily the best.  Good gold stocks will move up faster on a percentage basis than the metal, and are safe as long as your broker is solvent. 

I won't guarantee the timing of the prices on Jim's chart, but the should be a good reference point as the Dollar keeps going down.

You can see the current contract for the dollar at http://quotes.ino.com under the quotes section.  On the right you'll see a list of open futures, including the dollar, other currencies, gold and oil.

That helps with determining trends.  You should put your money where these trends will make you a profit. And understand that all trends end sooner or later, so whatever you put money into, you need to learn when to sell for it to work for you.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 07:20:36 PM by rickortreat »

Offline ziggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - ziggythebeagle
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2007, 01:26:21 PM »
This is the best perspective on the Feds decision I have seen.  I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment.  Chairman Bernanke has been put in a difficult spot because of Greenspan's mistakes, but in my opinion he swung and missed on this.  His decision (in my opinion at least) was a major blunder.

This report was prepared by First Trust Advisors L. P., and reflects the current opinion of the authors. It is based upon sources and data believed to be accurate and reliable. Opinions and forward looking statements expressed are subject to change without notice. This information does not constitute a
solicitation or an offer to buy or sell any security.



They Actually Did It – Cut Rates That Is
Well, they actually did it. The Federal Reserve, and
Chairman Bernanke, cut the federal funds rate and the
discount rate by 50 bps. The Fed argued that their action
was meant to “help forestall some of the adverse effects
[from tightening credit conditions] on the broader economy.”
The stock market loved it with the Dow up more than 400
points over two days, and the NASDAQ up more than 80
points. The pundits loved it, too. But cash gold prices have
now moved above $730/oz. If prices stay at this level for a
month, gold will set a new monthly all-time record high.

Oil prices jumped to an all-time high, of $82/bbl., and the
dollar tanked, losing more than 1% of its value versus
foreign currencies. To top it off, the price of the 30-year
Treasury bond has fallen by more than three full points,
pushing the yield to 4.92%, which raises the cost of fixed
rate mortgages.

The rise in stocks was probably welcome by the Fed, but we
can’t imagine the Fed wanted to see inflation sensitive
markets behave this way. The Fed’s number one
responsibility is to protect the purchasing power of the
dollar. But this is not happening.


A Misunderstanding of the Problem
Some analysts thought a Fed rate cut would push the dollar
up and gold down. They argued the Fed was so tight that
markets were being squeezed, and this was causing demand
for the dollar to fall. They also argued that if the Fed cut
rates, and supplied new money, the markets would unlock,
demand for the dollar would rise, gold prices would fall and
the dollar would rise. Oops!

The idea that the Fed is too tight is based on a few different
arguments. First, that trouble in commercial paper markets
does not occur unless liquidity is scarce. Second that
housing is a leading indicator of Fed tightness. And finally,
that real GDP grew just 2% in the past year.
But none of this is proof of tight money. Every single
problem in the economy and credit markets emanates from
housing. And the housing market is clearly suffering
because interest rates were too low between 2001 and 2004,
which led to absurdly loose credit standards. So loose, that
even Alan Greenspan could not imagine how much lending
standards had deteriorated. In some ways we can’t blame
him. Who could imagine mortgages were being made to
people with no money down and no proof of income? And
who could imagine those loans were bought by the smartest
people in the room at major hedge funds?

But they did. And the reason this house of cards is falling
down is because interest rates did not stay absurdly low. But
that does not mean interest rates are too high or that the Fed
is too tight. In fact, interest rates today are significantly
below the levels of the late 1990s when things were so good
it was called a bubble – a false boom. Today’s problems
exist because interest rates were too low, not because they
are too high.


It is the excesses of the past that are causing problems in the
asset backed commercial paper market, not tight money, and
ditto for the housing market. In addition, non-housing real
GDP grew at a 3.1% annual rate in the first half of the year.
No evidence of tight money there.

Pushing on a String
To understand why the Fed’s policy stance is inflationary, it
is important to understand monetary policy. And the first
thing to understand is that the Fed does not control interest
rates directly. It controls the money supply. By injecting
more money in the system, the Fed drives interest rates
lower. If the Fed withdraws money, or slows its growth, it
pushes interest rates up.

Despite this truth, most people mistakenly view Fed policy
through the lens of interest rates and believe lower interest
rates are a catalyst for increased economic activity and
greater profits. But this is only a short-term phenomenon. If
the Fed is holding interest rates below their “neutral rate,” it
must inject more money than the economy actually needs.
This creates inflation.

That’s what commodity prices (including gold and oil) and
the weakening dollar, are telling us – the Fed is adding more
liquidity than the economy really needs. This is the danger
of trying to fight off credit market problems with easy
money. Lower interest rates can make things appear
profitable when they are not. Eventually, the piper must be
paid and that will come in the form of losses to investors and
higher interest rates in the future.


The End Game
The Fed is most likely aware of all these risks and took them
willingly because it is involved in a risk management
project. The Fed believes risks to the economy are greater
than the risks from inflation. It also believes any extra
inflation that results from Tuesday’s rate cuts can be offset at
some future date.

The problem with this thinking is that the Fed cut rates
before inflationary pressures had actually receded. When
Alan Greenspan cut rates (and the Greenspan Put was born)
dis-inflation was the story. This meant that the Fed could
risk easy money for a while without creating a situation it
could not control.

This time, inflation is still in an upward trend. Moreover,
this is the lowest real federal funds in over 40 years at which
the Fed reversed course and started cutting interest rates (see
chart). In other words, the Fed cut rates this time before it
ever got tight, unlike 2000 or 1989.

In its statement describing why it moved, the Fed tipped its
hat toward these risks, acknowledging “some inflation risks
remain.” But obviously it was willing to ignore this risk for
the time being because it foresees problems with the
economy that are not visible with the naked eye.

The Fed cut rates with the stock market still up on the year,
real GDP growth averaging around 3.5% between March
and September, very low initial unemployment claims, and
some clear improvement in commercial paper markets.
If the Fed can cut interest rates in this environment, when it
still sees risks of inflation, then no one can argue that it
won’t cut again. As a result, even though the economy and
equities markets will respond positively to the easy money in
the next six to nine months, inflation risks will remain.
That said, further rate cuts are unlikely if economic activity
remains robust. And that appears highly probable. The
housing market is only 5% of the economy, liquidity is
plentiful and free capital markets are perfectly able to absorb
losses. As a result, it is highly likely that in 2008 the Fed
will be forced to reverse its rate cut and push rates above
5.25%. At that point, just like after the rate cuts in 1987 and
1998, the economy will face its greatest risks.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 02:30:25 PM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2007, 08:11:18 PM »
The liquidity pump is on full blast, all to prevent the whole financial market system from imploding from all the derivatives going boom.  AS long as everyone (for the most part) can pay the system will get by- but there will be a LOT OF INFLATION, as there already has been.

When I started this post,  Gold was already at $685 well of the bottom at $640.  Today it was back over $750 for a while, not too far from the $755 peak made at the beginning of October.  Gold appears to be breaking out to the upside again. 

Almost every stock will go up in this environment as a result of the inflation, But gold should start to take on a life of it's own.  It isn't just the US that's expanding it's money supply ASIA and the old USSR are pumping out their currencies even faster.  That means a lot more people will see gold and silver as a safe haven. 

If inflation gets too out of hand, people will resort to barter to protect themselves and get the value they want.  IMO, Silver will be the ideal token to trade in such and environment.

If you haven't gotten in yet, right now gold is heading down.  The shorts are desperate to see the price lower so they can sell and cover at less of a loss.  It appears as though they cannot.  The best they have been able to do is hold gold below $755, but no lower than $730. I doubt we will get down to $730 at this point.  But wherever the bottom to this little dive occurs, that's where you load up on the good stocks, the ones that have already been going up like GG.

Offline ziggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - ziggythebeagle
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2007, 06:01:41 PM »
Fed cut the discount rate and the OTC rate today both by 1/4 point, at the same time as we got 3rd qtr GDP coming in at better than analysts expected at 3.9%.  In other words "WHAT THE FUCK?"

We have GDP exceeding analysts expectations, and hitting nearly 4%, with housing cutting that by 0.8%, so actually we had just shy of 5% GDP growth in the rest of the economy, and we cut rates??????  This is fricking stupid.

Cutting rates will do nothing for housing, because it is not high rates that is the problem, it is an unwillingness to lend because of a fear of not knowing how much bad debt you already hold, and a huge inventory of homes that are not selling.  The market is awash in cash, and we do not need to add cash to the market, just look at commodities.  Gold approaching $900 an ounce, oil nearly $100 a barrel, and the US$ is now a Banana Republic Currency, not much different than the Costa Rican Colon.  The Canadian $ is heading towards $0.90, the Australian $ is moving towards par, the Euro is at $1.45, and heading to $1.50.

The last thing the Fed should have done is cut rates, because it is driving inflation not seen since Jimmy Carter.  Soon inflation will become to great to ignore, and it will force rates up, at the same time as we begin an economic downturn, and we will officially reenter the Carter era again, of high inflation, high interest rates, and an economic recession that the Fed will not be able to effect with interest rates, because we have an inflation problem.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2007, 07:19:04 PM »
Ziggy,

They cut rates because of the derivative problem that prompted me to start this thread.  If these things implode (and chances are high that they will) some banks will melt down to insolvency.

The first on my hit parade is MER - Merrill Lynch & Co. who just fired their President and Chairman.  They fired him because the company just lost some billions of dollars. What the board doesn't know is that this is just the beggining and the President was trying to bring in some new blood to help keep them solvent.  The blue-bloods on the board- people who have had money for generations, are about to get their heads handed to them. 

Mind you, this problem is not contained to the US. Europe, Japan, even China - the whole frigggin world economy is so screwed up because of the lack of transparency- (who owes what to whom and how bad is it for us really?)  That everyone is afraid to lend money for fear of not getting is back.

The Fed can't make people lend money, all they can do is make it cheaper- and the Fed in this situation can't really do anything else, because all the money people everywhere are in a panic- they've gotten themselves into a mess from which there is no rational escape.  And the problem isn't going to go away- it's going to fester for a while.  This move does help those with adjustible rate mortgages, and helps those who underwrote the insurance on those loans in case of default.

The rate cut was for them.  You, me and everyone else on the board is getting screwed.  This is why I told everyone to buy gold.  We will probably top $800 tonight, thanks to the rate cut.  The Dollar hasn't been this low in since Clinton was in his first term in office trying to overcome Bush 1's recession.

Offline ziggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - ziggythebeagle
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2007, 12:02:46 AM »
Rick,
These rates do not help adjustable rate mortgages, in fact they make them worse.  When they cut rates in September by 50 basis points what happened?  Mortgage rates went up.  Why?  Because the perception was that decision increased the probability of inflation so rates went up to compensate for the inflation risk inherent in lending long term, ie 30 year mortgages.

The best way out of the mortgage crisis are steps like those taken by Country Wide, which was simply "we are prepared to renegotiate your loan to keep from having a foreclosure".  The last thing mortgage lenders need is excessive amounts of foreclosures, as that will cause the liquidity crunch.  The last thing we need the gov't to do is bail a bunch of people out.  What we need is a focus on making as many mortgages work as possible.  Extend loans from 30 years to 50 years.  That cuts peoples payments, and allows them the time necessary to get the finances in order, and then they can get out from underneath without them being foreclosed on, and the mortgage lenders from taking possession of more and more houses they can't sell.

Anyone interested in a good read, I recommend "When Genius Failed".  It is about the collapse of LTCM.  Absolutely fascinating, and the situation is very much like it is today, only the particulars are different.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2007, 07:16:37 PM »
The adjustable rate mortgages are attached to the prime rate, not the availability of new mortgages.  It definitely saves these homeowners from seeing the cost of staying in their home rise ever higher, while the value of the home on the open market collapses.

Country-Wide is terrified of what is happening.  There are 18 million homes that are vacant and are not on the market.  They are non-performing loans and they are burying Wall Street investment banks to the point of insolvency.  Anything they can do to keep people in their homes is a totally defensive move, brought on by the softness in the market.

Jim Sinclair is now advising his followers to close out bank accounts, and brokerage accounts- anywhere that there is a possibility the firm in question will fail as a result of the derivative implosion. If the firm goes bankrupt- good luck getting your money from them!

The Dollar is sick.  The economy is extremely vulnerable. The World is becoming a more dangerous place. America is getting weaker, while other countries are growing very rapidly, like China, India and Brazil.

The LTCM is a good parallel for today, except that every hedge fund out there is just like LTCM, thinking they were smarter than everyone else, and being proven totally wrong by the market. Academicians have no place in the market or the Fed. They are about as clueless as can be when it comes to proper regulation of the economy. The unwillingness to provide oversight to the derivative market is akin to being asleep at the wheel of a car.  The car is about to fall off the road and over the side of a cliff!  This was something that is completely Alan Greenspan's fault.

What isn't his fault is the Trade Policies of the US, and the inability/unwillingness of the government to keep spending restrained.  No matter what the Fed does, they cannot protect the rest of of us from this idiocy.

Offline ziggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - ziggythebeagle
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Please Don't shoot the messenger!
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2007, 07:56:07 PM »
The adjustable rate mortgages are attached to the prime rate, not the availability of new mortgages.  It definitely saves these homeowners from seeing the cost of staying in their home rise ever higher, while the value of the home on the open market collapses.

I mis-spoke, I meant to say that if people were going to move from an adjustable rate to a fixed rate, then these rates cuts won't help them.  While they are in an ARM, you are correct, then when the Fed cuts rates the ARM adjusts down.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil