Author Topic: Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair  (Read 5936 times)

Offline spursfan101

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« on: March 22, 2004, 05:25:16 PM »
Jimmy Carter, the former US president, has strongly criticised George Bush and Tony Blair for waging an unnecessary war to oust Saddam Hussein based on "lies or misinterpretations". The 2002 Nobel peace prize winner said Mr Blair had allowed his better judgement to be swayed by Mr Bush's desire to finish a war that his father had started.

In an interview with The Independent on the first anniversary of the American and British invasion of Iraq, Mr Carter, who was president from 1977 to 1981, said the two leaders probably knew that many of the claims being made about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction were based on imperfect intelligence.

He said: "There was no reason for us to become involved in Iraq recently. That was a war based on lies and misinterpretations from London and from Washington, claiming falsely that Saddam Hussein was responsible for [the] 9/11 attacks, claiming falsely that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And I think that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair probably knew that many of the allegations were based on uncertain intelligence ... a decision was made to go to war [then people said] 'Let's find a reason to do so'."

Before the war Mr Carter made clear his opposition to a unilateral attack and said the US did not have the authority to create a "Pax Americana". During his Nobel prize acceptance speech in December 2002 he warned of the danger of "uncontrollable violence" if countries sought to resolve problems without United Nations input.

His latest comments, made during an interview at the Carter Centre in Atlanta, are notable for their condemnation of the two serving leaders. It is extremely rare for a former US president to criticise an incumbent, or a British prime minister. Mr Carter's comments will add to the mounting pressure on Mr Bush and Mr Blair.

Mr Carter said he believed the momentum for the invasion came from Washington and that many of Mr Bush's senior advisers had long ago signalled their desire to remove Saddam by force. Once a decision had been taken to go to war, every effort was made to find a reason for doing do, he said.

"I think the basic reason was made not in London but in Washington. I think that Bush Jnr was inclined to finish a war that his father had precipitated against Iraq. I think it was that commitment of Bush that prevailed over, I think, the better judgement of Tony Blair and Tony Blair became an enthusiastic supporter of the Bush policy".

Mr Carter's criticisms coincided with damaging claims yesterday from a former White House anti-terrorism co-ordinator. Richard Clarke said that President Bush ignored the threat from al-Qai'da before 11 September but in the immediate aftermath sought to hold Iraq responsible, in defiance of senior intelligence advisers who told him that Saddam had nothing to do with the conspiracy.

With an eye to November's presidential elections, Mr Bush sought on Friday to use the anniversary of the Iraq invasion to say that differences between the US and opponents of the war belonged "to the past".

Speaking at the White House, he told about 80 foreign ambassadors: "There is no neutral ground in the fight between civilisation and terror. There can be no separate peace with the terrorist enemy."

But in the US and Britain, and elsewhere, there is growing anger among people who believe the war in Iraq was at best a deadly distraction and at worst an impediment to the war against al-Qa'ida - diverting resources and energy from countering those groups responsible for attacks such as the train bombings in Madrid.

Over the weekend millions of anti-war protesters poured on to the streets of cities around the world to call for the withdrawal of US-led troops from Iraq. It was estimated that in Rome - which saw the biggest crowds - up to one million turned out.

Mr Carter, 79, has recently published a novel. The Hornet's Nest is centred on America's revolutionary war against the British. That period had many lessons for the present day, Mr Carter said.

 
Paul

Offline Randy

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2004, 05:51:36 PM »
Quote
Jimmy Carter, the former US president, has strongly criticised George Bush and Tony Blair for waging an unnecessary war to oust Saddam Hussein based on "lies or misinterpretations". The 2002 Nobel peace prize winner said Mr Blair had allowed his better judgement to be swayed by Mr Bush's desire to finish a war that his father had started.

In an interview with The Independent on the first anniversary of the American and British invasion of Iraq, Mr Carter, who was president from 1977 to 1981, said the two leaders probably knew that many of the claims being made about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction were based on imperfect intelligence.

He said: "There was no reason for us to become involved in Iraq recently. That was a war based on lies and misinterpretations from London and from Washington, claiming falsely that Saddam Hussein was responsible for [the] 9/11 attacks, claiming falsely that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And I think that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair probably knew that many of the allegations were based on uncertain intelligence ... a decision was made to go to war [then people said] 'Let's find a reason to do so'."

Before the war Mr Carter made clear his opposition to a unilateral attack and said the US did not have the authority to create a "Pax Americana". During his Nobel prize acceptance speech in December 2002 he warned of the danger of "uncontrollable violence" if countries sought to resolve problems without United Nations input.

His latest comments, made during an interview at the Carter Centre in Atlanta, are notable for their condemnation of the two serving leaders. It is extremely rare for a former US president to criticise an incumbent, or a British prime minister. Mr Carter's comments will add to the mounting pressure on Mr Bush and Mr Blair.

Mr Carter said he believed the momentum for the invasion came from Washington and that many of Mr Bush's senior advisers had long ago signalled their desire to remove Saddam by force. Once a decision had been taken to go to war, every effort was made to find a reason for doing do, he said.

"I think the basic reason was made not in London but in Washington. I think that Bush Jnr was inclined to finish a war that his father had precipitated against Iraq. I think it was that commitment of Bush that prevailed over, I think, the better judgement of Tony Blair and Tony Blair became an enthusiastic supporter of the Bush policy".

Mr Carter's criticisms coincided with damaging claims yesterday from a former White House anti-terrorism co-ordinator. Richard Clarke said that President Bush ignored the threat from al-Qai'da before 11 September but in the immediate aftermath sought to hold Iraq responsible, in defiance of senior intelligence advisers who told him that Saddam had nothing to do with the conspiracy.

With an eye to November's presidential elections, Mr Bush sought on Friday to use the anniversary of the Iraq invasion to say that differences between the US and opponents of the war belonged "to the past".

Speaking at the White House, he told about 80 foreign ambassadors: "There is no neutral ground in the fight between civilisation and terror. There can be no separate peace with the terrorist enemy."

But in the US and Britain, and elsewhere, there is growing anger among people who believe the war in Iraq was at best a deadly distraction and at worst an impediment to the war against al-Qa'ida - diverting resources and energy from countering those groups responsible for attacks such as the train bombings in Madrid.

Over the weekend millions of anti-war protesters poured on to the streets of cities around the world to call for the withdrawal of US-led troops from Iraq. It was estimated that in Rome - which saw the biggest crowds - up to one million turned out.

Mr Carter, 79, has recently published a novel. The Hornet's Nest is centred on America's revolutionary war against the British. That period had many lessons for the present day, Mr Carter said.
I don't have a problem with that -- but when is Carter going to criticize himself for his own presidency.  He's the only one left, at this point, who hasn't.

Offline Lurker

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2004, 06:01:13 PM »
And when will Congress demand an investigation or impeachment process into Bush's actions?  Just about everyone has called for it.

Almost as logical as Randy's conclusion.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 06:01:30 PM by Lurker »
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Offline Randy

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2004, 06:06:00 PM »
Quote
And when will Congress demand an investigation or impeachment process into Bush's actions?  Just about everyone has called for it.

Almost as logical as Randy's conclusion.
Please, just wait until the Demos get congress back, they will be calling for an impeachment just like they did for Ole Ronnie, remember?

Carter was a horrible president -- nothing worthy of impeachment, just incompetence.

Offline Lurker

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2004, 06:20:46 PM »
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Carter was a horrible president -- nothing worthy of impeachment, just incompetence.
Actually no, he wasn't that incompetent.  He was just a Washington outsider...kinda why he was elected....and once he was there didn't have the old boy network to call on.

Carter's presidency can best be described as 4 years of political standstill.  In some ways very refreshing when compared to the sewage that flows from the White House these days.
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Offline TheloMonk

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2004, 10:07:30 PM »
I agree Lurker....  I think that IQ-wise Carter is probably the smartest.  Yet, another reason why not much  was accomplished during his tenure.  And his post office activities showed that he's probably one of the few men to hold the office who cared about helping others than promoting his own agenda.  

Offline ziggy

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2004, 01:23:40 AM »
Quote
I agree Lurker....  I think that IQ-wise Carter is probably the smartest.  Yet, another reason why not much  was accomplished during his tenure.  And his post office activities showed that he's probably one of the few men to hold the office who cared about helping others than promoting his own agenda.

 
With all due respect TheloMonk and Lurker, but typical liberal garbage.  "Carter is probably the smartest".  He was a completely ineffective president, and yet he was brilliant, HUH?!?  The reality is it takes some smarts to get things done, which he couldn't do.  So save me the revisionist history lesson.  Carter is a fool, and is generally considered the worst president since Andrew Johnson, and James Buchanan.

The reality in Iraq is we have deposed one of the worst dictators in the history of man kind.  We have captured or killed all but just a few of the 54 leaders of his brutal government.  Iraq has agreed to an interim constitution for a Republican form of government, that was agreed to by ALL the major parties within the government.  They are moving forward with their first FREE elections in their history in June.  The flow of cash to terrorist organizations from the Iraqi government has stopped.  The slaughter of Iraqi innocents by the Iraqi government has stopped.  The world is a safer place.  That is far from an unneccesary war.  That is a JUST WAR, and only and old fool like Carter could characterize it as an unnecessary war.  IT WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ, so save me your moralizing on the rightness of Jimmy Carter.

Carter accuses Bush of lies and misinterpretations, and that Blair allowed his better judgement to be swayed by the Bush.  There is no evidence that Bush lied.  Bush used the same intelligence that Clinton and Gore used to determine that Hussien had WMD.  Britain shared their intelligence with the US, which supported the belief that the same conclusions.  Bush used the same intelligence that was used by John Kerry to make his decision to support going to war, even though Kerry now denies he supported it, even though it is clearly in the public record.  Bush used the same intelligence that was used by every other Democrat who voted for the resolution, which was the majority of the Democrats in the Senate.
So Lurker, did all the Democrats lie as well about WMD?  Did Clinton and Gore?

Mr Carter just finished his latest novel The Hornets Nest.  That is what he does best, FICTION.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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Offline WayOutWest

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2004, 01:44:48 AM »
gawdfloggingdangit ziggy!  When are you going to figure out why the US went into Iraq.  If the US gave a flying floss about the "poor unfortuante people", where the M F where we in G D Rwanda!

ziggy, give me a ring when Saddams breaks the 1 million deaths in a hundred days record!  As in Rwanda, babies and children count as full credit so count away!
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Offline spursfan101

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2004, 09:00:10 AM »
Carter is a compassionate man and has done some truly good deeds post White House. I don't think Carter is an idiot, if you were to put up his IQ straight up against George W, I wonder who would win.  Hmmm....

Was the war just?  In Bush's eyes, it absolutely was. Didn't know Bush had a compassionate streak in him, what a helluva nice guy, trying to save the Iraqi people from their own dictator.

Too bad he let our country go to pot. Trillions in debt, unemployment highest its been in years. Big brother. Wish he was as "concerned" about his own country as he was with avenging his fathers attempted murderer.
Paul

Offline Lurker

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2004, 09:52:31 AM »
First off I never claimed Carter was brilliant.  I just claim that he was not incompetent.  Big difference.  I also said that he was a Washington outsider which led to him being ineffective.  Again big difference between ineffective and incompetent.

As far as Bush goes, he has lied, covered up and distracted everyone who has tried to utter the truth.  He had no reason for going into Iraq and any excuse that he now makes up after the fact is just covering his A##.  There was no justification for the war....and everyone in the world except GW and his sidekick in Britain saw it that way.  Bush doesn't give a damn about the Iraqi people.  He cares a hell of a lot more about Iraqi oil and "finishing the job his Dad started".

It is amazing that as these different stories break that the reaction from Bush & his supporters is not to furnish facts that disprove the various claims.  Instead they attack the messenger with semi-truths and character smears.  For all of you Bush supporters there is one simple easy question:

IF BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION WAS ON THE UP & UP WITH HIS LITTLE WAR ON IRAQ, THEN WHY DO THEY WORK SO HARD TO AVOID LETTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 09:53:27 AM by Lurker »
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Offline spursfan101

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2004, 10:06:33 AM »
And don't forget my biggest pet peeve, when President Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up "free speech zones" or "protest zones," where people opposed to Bush policies are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event.

If the Bush administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind.

Is this even legal???  Only in GW's America.
Paul

Offline WayOutWest

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2004, 10:42:02 AM »
Quote
If the Bush administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind.

Is this even legal???  Only in GW's America.
Like I said, the Space Shuttle Bismark is on the way!  :(  
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Offline ziggy

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2004, 01:08:06 PM »
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gawdfloggingdangit ziggy!  When are you going to figure out why the US went into Iraq.  If the US gave a flying floss about the "poor unfortuante people", where the M F where we in G D Rwanda!

ziggy, give me a ring when Saddams breaks the 1 million deaths in a hundred days record!  As in Rwanda, babies and children count as full credit so count away!
Excuse me WOW.  I guess the treshold for giving a frick has been raised to 1,000,000 dead in 100 days.  If it doesn't get there then who cares, is that what you are saying?
I for one have never denied that we ignored a horrible genocide in Rwanda, Burundi, and Zaire.  Our and the UN's inaction was despicable.  No arguments here.  But the fact that we stood by as more than a million died, should not preclude us from acting on atrocities in the future.
So to put it another way, what happened in Central Africa was horrible, but it has absolutely nothing to do with our action in Iraq.

Does oil have an impact on our decisions about Iraq?  Sure, and I for one have never denied that.  If it was ALL about oil then the easist, cheapest, and quickest way to get the oil would have been to negotiate with Saddam, let him stay in power, and have the quid pro quo of we remove the sanctions, and you give us your oil.  We didn't do it.  
We did it because the only way to defeat terrorism in the Middle East is to get rid of the despotic regimes that expolit the oil wealth and exploit the populations.  Create democracy in the region and they will be much less likely to export terror.  No terror organizations are supported by free democracies.  The terror organizations are supported by the likes of Iran, Lybia, Syria, the Taliban in Afganistan, Saddam's Iraq, North Korea, Haiti, Rwanda, Sudan, Nigeria, and lastly Suadi Arabia.  Thats the fact Jack.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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Offline ziggy

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2004, 01:16:27 PM »
Quote
It is amazing that as these different stories break that the reaction from Bush & his supporters is not to furnish facts that disprove the various claims.  Instead they attack the messenger with semi-truths and character smears.
I can now officially give up my title of Saint Ziggy, it now belongs to Lurker.  The left is always on the right side, and they NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, resort to lies, innuendo, smear campaigns, semi-truths, and character smears.  This is all partisan politics, and sometimes it gets down and dirty.  You know as Kerry says the Republicans are all lies and crooks.  Save me the platitudes.  If Carter wants to get into partisan name calling, and that is EXACTLY WHAT HE DID, then he can't then take the moral high ground.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline WayOutWest

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Fmr Pres Carter cricizes Bush and Blair
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2004, 01:18:55 PM »
I think your biggest problem ziggy is you fail to see the difference between terrorists and the rest.  You can deal with countries like Iraq because they actually fear what you could do to them in more ways than one.  Terrorist don't, the only thing you can do to deal with a terrorist is kill him/her/it.  Iraq was a TOTAL BS war.  If the US is going to stand idly by and let MILLIONS of people get LITTERALLY hacked to pieces and do NOTHING, then why the flock did we go into Iraq?
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"