Kobes cheapshot earns suspension

[Joe Vancil]

I don't think he had enough time to think about 'sending a message' because quite frankly he was focused in on making the shot.  There was a split second to make a decision as the ball got blocked, I find it very hard to believe he was able to think 'hay I need to try to get a call' then think 'I need to send a message to Manu to not try to ever block me'  Think up that last part yourself and tell me how long it takes just to have it pop up.  Certainly much longer then getting blocked, trying to get a foul, then to continue to grab the ball and toss up another shot.

This is the argument I have the most trouble with - that "Kobe didn't have time to think to try to pop Manu."

If he had time to realize his shot was blocked, he had time to flail his arms, which is the conditioned reaction.  It's not a conditioned reaction to draw the foul - it's a conditioned reaction to pop the guy who blocked you.

This same, focused, Kobe Bryant who tried to get up another shot - because the previous one had been blocked - knew GOOD AND WELL that his shot had been blocked.  His arm swung SIDEWAYS rather than in the direction where the foul would have taken him.

WayOut is dead on the money - this is a guy trying to pop someone who has just blocked his shot.  It has nothing to do with "trying to draw a foul."

Would you say that when the other two do this, Wade most often of the two, they are too trying to send a message to the player and not the ref?  I don't think Wade is trying to send a message to the player.  I think he is trying to get the refs attention.

Actually, I reject that the idea that the other two do this.  Typically, Wade's entire body goes flying sideways when he's trying to draw attention to a supposed foul.  I can't say that I've ever seen McGrady's arms go flailing, either, although I'll be honest in that I've not watched McGrady much.

What you're doing here is saying that other folks do the same thing, while not offering any evidence to back it.  This is now the third time Bryant has popped a player in the face "inadvertently."  I excused him on the Bibby one, although the more I look back at it, the more I'm convinced that Skander may be right in that it was intentional.  The Nowitzki pop from last year was BLATANT.  And yet, supposedly, Wade and McGrady do this same thing, yet have never had a big scene from anyone being popped in the face.

The last person who I saw frequently had his arms fly to the side when he was blocked was Karl Malone, and before that, Charles Barkley.  Hardly saintly types who were just trying to elicit a foul call.

[Laker Fan]

I have watched this play a hundred times and all one hundred times several things are very clear to me

1) Kobe clearly was trying to draw contact, LIKE VIRTUALLY EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA DOES IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS! Except I think it might have been more like he knew it was blocked, and ala' Karl Malone was clearing space for the rebound, come to think of it not ala' Karl Malone, more like VIRTUALLY EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS!

2) No way, no how, did he know who was COMPLETELY BEHIND him, not in his periphery, not in his field of vision whatsoever, so take your " he was aiming for Ginobili's head with his elbows" nonsense Rick and go roll it up and smoke it, he never took his eyes of the ball, Kobe's talented but he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head so as to know exactly where Ginobili was and exactly where he needed to land his elbow, (except it was his forearm, NOT his elbow), AND play for the rebound and a desperation shot ALL IN A NANO SECOND of time, what complete rubbish.

3) Ginobili did try to draw undue attention by overreacting like he had just gotten shot, LIKE VIRTUALLY EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA DOES IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS! It didn't matter that the refs had walked away; he had a couple of minutes while lying there to reason:
"Hmm, bloody nose, refs didn't make a call, let me milk this because I know the league will review this and maybe Kobe will get in trouble".
Or maybe he just isn't bright enough to take couple of minutes to think that far ahead. Perhaps only only Kobe is quick enough to reason:
"Hmm, I just got blocked; I'm going to send a message to Manu that he will pay the next time he tries that".
Except Kobe had to complete that thought process in a split second, while multi tasking, to wit: while flying through the air, while trying to win a game, while trying to box out, while trying to get a second chance shot off, while looking out the back of his head, wow! Talk about talented!

I will go out on a limb here and point out that there is usually only one person on this board who lives to insult, call names, and assign bad motives, usually directed to just one team and one player in particular, and you wonder why people like me, show up so infrequently.

[msc]

msc  

We just plain disagree on this.

That is so much better then some "Anybody who saw it differently is an unobjective Kobe Hater."
Also, please stop saying GNob came behind Kobe.  He came from the side, 90 degrees.  Probably more like 75 or 80.  Kobe certainly could have seen GNob in his peripheal.  Behind Kobe was the Spurs bench, not GNob.  GNob actually brushed and bumped Bowen as GNob cut in front of Bowen to get close to Kobme for the block.

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point. 

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses.

[Reality]

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point. 

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses. 

Pops take is the suspension is warranted so glad you to hear you'll go with his take.
Feel free to cut n paste any of my takes.  I'll stand by whatever i wrote.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an overhead camera to further implode the "completely behind him" production? 

[westkoast]

I don't think he had enough time to think about 'sending a message' because quite frankly he was focused in on making the shot.  There was a split second to make a decision as the ball got blocked, I find it very hard to believe he was able to think 'hay I need to try to get a call' then think 'I need to send a message to Manu to not try to ever block me'  Think up that last part yourself and tell me how long it takes just to have it pop up.  Certainly much longer then getting blocked, trying to get a foul, then to continue to grab the ball and toss up another shot.

This is the argument I have the most trouble with - that "Kobe didn't have time to think to try to pop Manu."

If he had time to realize his shot was blocked, he had time to flail his arms, which is the conditioned reaction.  It's not a conditioned reaction to draw the foul - it's a conditioned reaction to pop the guy who blocked you.

Not when you are a superstar basketball player who uses this move to get fouls called in your favor time and again.  If this was Dwayne Wade, who also does this same move for calls, would people be signing the same tune?  One would assume so.    I truly believe he tried to get a call knowing he was blocked.  It is an offensive flop.

And maybe you are right to assume it was an ego thing.  He wanted to prove he was the man....but don't you think the game winning heroics against the Spurs would better pump up an inflated ego then showing Manu who is boss?  It is not like he knew how much damage he would do or if he would even hit him in a spot to really teach him who the boss on the court is.

This same, focused, Kobe Bryant who tried to get up another shot - because the previous one had been blocked - knew GOOD AND WELL that his shot had been blocked.  His arm swung SIDEWAYS rather than in the direction where the foul would have taken him.

WayOut is dead on the money - this is a guy trying to pop someone who has just blocked his shot.  It has nothing to do with "trying to draw a foul."

WoW is talking from a street basketball situation.  These teams are trying to win for a different reason other then machoness and bragging rights (althoughs come from the ego maniacs also).  These games mean alot more then when WOW is playing street basketball in his neighborhood.

Actually, I reject that the idea that the other two do this.  Typically, Wade's entire body goes flying sideways when he's trying to draw attention to a supposed foul.  I can't say that I've ever seen McGrady's arms go flailing, either, although I'll be honest in that I've not watched McGrady much.

I've seen his hands/arms do the same against multiple teams.  It is a super star way of getting a call.  If Wade fell into a player and injured him, the way you describe he does it, is that not the same thing though?

What you're doing here is saying that other folks do the same thing, while not offering any evidence to back it.  This is now the third time Bryant has popped a player in the face "inadvertently."  I excused him on the Bibby one, although the more I look back at it, the more I'm convinced that Skander may be right in that it was intentional.  The Nowitzki pop from last year was BLATANT.  And yet, supposedly, Wade and McGrady do this same thing, yet have never had a big scene from anyone being popped in the face.

Third time?  I disagree about the Bibby one.  Dirk I would agree with.  This Manu one I do not at all.

Wade has never had players gripe about how the refs treat him?!  As far as popping people, like smacking a guys face when trying to keep them from putting the ball in the hole (That is the Dirk situation you are talking about right)  I believe they both have popped people in the face before but they are not as closely watched as Kobe Bryant for mistakes.  I understand he brought some of that on himself.  If we disected everything Wade does in the same fashion we do with Kobe I guarentee you would find some "things" to talk about.  In fact if we could recruit a Reality-esque poster who hates Dwayne Wade with a passion (maybe a Dallas fan?!?!  Mark Cuban?!)  it would be interesting to see some threads.

Let me ask you this, do you feel Bruce Bowen is trying to purposely hurt jump shooters when they come down on his foot?  Plenty of individuals have said that he is trying to hurt them.  There have been more then a few instances.   I personally do not think he is trying to hurt them at all.  Just try to get as close as possible to make a good defensive play.  Point being for bringing this up is that certain people rile people up.  Others don't.  Sometimes people are more focused in on playing basketball then teaching shooters who's boss or trying to send a message if you know what I mean.

The last person who I saw frequently had his arms fly to the side when he was blocked was Karl Malone, and before that, Charles Barkley.  Hardly saintly types who were just trying to elicit a foul call.

But trying to get a foul call nonetheless right?

Like I said, if it comes down to an ego thing.  You are going to pump your ego by hitting a game winning shot over an elite team then you are to smack a player across the head.  As if Kobe knew how much damage he was going to do and where he was going to hit him.  He could not aim let alone see exactly where Manu was.  Watch the dvr/Tivo box again and pay close attention to his eyes.

[msc]

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point. 

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses. 

Pops take is the suspension is warranted so glad you to hear you'll go with his take.
Feel free to cut n paste any of my takes.  I'll stand by whatever i wrote.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an overhead camera to further implode the "completely behind him" production? 

I just heard Pop and Manu after the game say they didn't think it was intentional ... that's what I'm going off of.  

I'm over it, Reality, I don't want to chase my tail or yours any longer.  I have no idea what angle it was, all I know is that Kobe didn't see him coming.  He didn't block his shot from in front of Kobe, he came from a BEHIND ANGLE and swiped it was behind Kobes head.  If you can't see that in the tape, then I don't know where to go from there.  

[westkoast]

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point. 

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses. 

Pops take is the suspension is warranted so glad you to hear you'll go with his take.
Feel free to cut n paste any of my takes.  I'll stand by whatever i wrote.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an overhead camera to further implode the "completely behind him" production? 

I just heard Pop and Manu after the game say they didn't think it was intentional ... that's what I'm going off of.  

I'm over it, Reality, I don't want to chase my tail or yours any longer.  I have no idea what angle it was, all I know is that Kobe didn't see him coming.  He didn't block his shot from in front of Kobe, he came from a BEHIND ANGLE and swiped it was behind Kobes head.  If you can't see that in the tape, then I don't know where to go from there.  

Um, Pop did say the suspension was UNWARRANTED.  Also Manu said he thought it was unintentional.  Reality its down right pathetic you have to make up lies as if you are not going to be called on it.  This is retarded even by your standards.

"This is somewhat surprising as the Spurs downplayed the elbow on Monday. "It's probably just a natural movement for a shooter coming down," coach Gregg Popovich said. "I doubt Kobe would do that. That's not his style." Maurice Evans will probably have a big night in place of Kobe."

[Reality]

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point. 

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses. 

Pops take is the suspension is warranted so glad you to hear you'll go with his take.
Feel free to cut n paste any of my takes.  I'll stand by whatever i wrote.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an overhead camera to further implode the "completely behind him" production? 

I just heard Pop and Manu after the game say they didn't think it was intentional ... that's what I'm going off of.  

I'm over it, Reality, I don't want to chase my tail or yours any longer.  I have no idea what angle it was, all I know is that Kobe didn't see him coming.  He didn't block his shot from in front of Kobe, he came from a BEHIND ANGLE and swiped it was behind Kobes head.  If you can't see that in the tape, then I don't know where to go from there.  

Side.  He came from and to Kobes side.  In fact he has to angle his right arm and hand towoards the Spurs bench to make the block.  As to the exact angle, the ABC gametime has two very slowed down shots, tons better then the youtube version, which is virtually useless for discussion purposes.
And to me "over it" means respecting others views who saw it differently.
As to tailing one another to see it differently i agree at X point let it go.
As to intent, did Kobe know he was going to connect his elbow to GNobs nose and eye?  No I can't read his heart and mind and I have been most careful to omit saying he intended to hit exactly where he did.  Just the same as you and others cannot say you "know" he did not intend to hit GNob (in cheap fashion per WOW and Joes description) ala Karl Malone style and you "know" he did not see GNob at all.

[westkoast]

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point. 

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses. 

Pops take is the suspension is warranted so glad you to hear you'll go with his take.
Feel free to cut n paste any of my takes.  I'll stand by whatever i wrote.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an overhead camera to further implode the "completely behind him" production? 

I just heard Pop and Manu after the game say they didn't think it was intentional ... that's what I'm going off of.  

I'm over it, Reality, I don't want to chase my tail or yours any longer.  I have no idea what angle it was, all I know is that Kobe didn't see him coming.  He didn't block his shot from in front of Kobe, he came from a BEHIND ANGLE and swiped it was behind Kobes head.  If you can't see that in the tape, then I don't know where to go from there.  

Side.  He came from and to Kobes side.  In fact he has to angle his right arm and hand towoards the Spurs bench to make the block.  As to the exact angle, the ABC gametime has two very slowed down shots, tons better then the youtube version, which is virtually useless for discussion purposes.
And to me "over it" means respecting others views who saw it differently.
As to tailing one another to see it differently i agree at X point let it go.
As to intent, did Kobe know he was going to connect his elbow to GNobs nose and eye?  No I can't read his heart and mind and I have been most careful to omit saying he intended to hit exactly where he did.  Just the same as you and others cannot say you "know" he did not intend to hit GNob (in cheap fashion per WOW and Joes description) ala Karl Malone style and you "know" he did not see GNob at all.

Care to address why you lied?  Or do you want to pretend like you didn't see the post?

[rickortreat]

I don't know what degree angle it was, but Kobe sure didn't see him, and that was my point.

It seems to me no one can be objective when it comes to Kobe these days.  If I see that change, I'll be the first to acknowledge it.  I'm sorry to say, Reality, but unfortunately you don't have the market cornered on unobjectivity when it comes to Kobe on this board.

Manu and Pop sure saw it objectively and they were there so I'll go with their take before yours or anyone elses.


Kobe didn't need to See where Manu was he felt him when Manu blocked the shot.  Kobe actualy extended his arm out to the side in what appeared to be a deliberate attempt to hit Manu, who was too far away to be hit by Kobe's elbow, but close enough for Kobe to make contact and Manu bleed.

Intentional or not, he initiated the contact and he did draw blood.  That is a foul.  The league reviewed it and thought it was a suspension.  You know very well that league reviewed it from as many angles as there were available before handing out the suspension.

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it looks to me like that on the video.  I have criticized Kobe in the past, but lately he's been a very good player, working hard on a team with lesser talents and being a leader.  I try to be objective about these things, and this time I honestly think he did something wrong.

Who's more objective about Kobe, outsiders or people with "Purple and Yellow Haze" vision?

[msc]

This is perfect.  I can't wait to see LeBron get suspended for one game for his clotheline to the head of Wade last night. 

Regarding objectivity with Kobe, IMO, the only one in this thread who's proven to be objective is Lurker.  Here's a die hard Spurs fan, who probably doesn't like Kobe, but went back and reviewed the play a couple of times and changed his original opinion.  Us purple and golders aren't objective and the Kobe haters aren't either. 

Peace. 

[westkoast]

This is perfect.  I can't wait to see LeBron get suspended for one game for his clotheline to the head of Wade last night. 

Regarding objectivity with Kobe, IMO, the only one in this thread who's proven to be objective is Lurker.  Here's a die hard Spurs fan, who probably doesn't like Kobe, but went back and reviewed the play a couple of times and changed his original opinion.  Us purple and golders aren't objective and the Kobe haters aren't either. 

Peace. 

He is not getting suspended because it was not intentional.  He intentionally put his arms out there like that  but did not aim to hit him above the shoulders.

Should Kobe's shot to Manu been a flagrant foul instead of a suspension?  One FT for Manu plus the ball with 1 second on the board?  And before someone says they don't want a call to effect an outcome of a game.  Esentially their non-call effected the following game as the Lakers had 3 of their 5 starters out.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

[Lurker]

This is perfect.  I can't wait to see LeBron get suspended for one game for his clotheline to the head of Wade last night. 

Regarding objectivity with Kobe, IMO, the only one in this thread who's proven to be objective is Lurker.  Here's a die hard Spurs fan, who probably doesn't like Kobe, but went back and reviewed the play a couple of times and changed his original opinion.  Us purple and golders aren't objective and the Kobe haters aren't either. 

Peace. 

He is not getting suspended because it was not intentional.  He intentionally put his arms out there like that  but did not aim to hit him above the shoulders.

Should Kobe's shot to Manu been a flagrant foul instead of a suspension?  One FT for Manu plus the ball with 1 second on the board?  And before someone says they don't want a call to effect an outcome of a game.  Esentially their non-call effected the following game as the Lakers had 3 of their 5 starters out.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

I thought about that.  Even if no flagrant should the refs have called a loose ball foul?  Who knows. 

But then IMO it goes back to the discussion about game 3 or 4 in last year's playoffs with Dallas when Knick Mavetta called a ticky tacky foul on incidental contact with less than 30 seconds to go.  The physicalness (if this is a word) allowed in the game made that one call in the final seconds stand out like a sore thumb.  It is a bad way to either win or lose a game.

[westkoast]

This is perfect.  I can't wait to see LeBron get suspended for one game for his clotheline to the head of Wade last night. 

Regarding objectivity with Kobe, IMO, the only one in this thread who's proven to be objective is Lurker.  Here's a die hard Spurs fan, who probably doesn't like Kobe, but went back and reviewed the play a couple of times and changed his original opinion.  Us purple and golders aren't objective and the Kobe haters aren't either. 

Peace. 

He is not getting suspended because it was not intentional.  He intentionally put his arms out there like that  but did not aim to hit him above the shoulders.

Should Kobe's shot to Manu been a flagrant foul instead of a suspension?  One FT for Manu plus the ball with 1 second on the board?  And before someone says they don't want a call to effect an outcome of a game.  Esentially their non-call effected the following game as the Lakers had 3 of their 5 starters out.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

I thought about that.  Even if no flagrant should the refs have called a loose ball foul?  Who knows. 

But then IMO it goes back to the discussion about game 3 or 4 in last year's playoffs with Dallas when Knick Mavetta called a ticky tacky foul on incidental contact with less than 30 seconds to go.  The physicalness (if this is a word) allowed in the game made that one call in the final seconds stand out like a sore thumb.  It is a bad way to either win or lose a game.

If anything they would have to have called a flagrant because he did hit Manu in the head.  Same reason why they called it on Lebron.  The difference that seperates a flagrant and a suspension is if it was intentional by one player to hurt the other player.  That is why I thought maybe a flagrant, FT + ball would have been the correct call.  Kobe deserved to have something called on him.

I don't know if this is the same thing though.  Knick Mavetta (LOL @ always so funny dunno why) did that in the important part of a playoff series.  Both game 3 and 4 usually determine, more times then not, how the series is going to go.  If the team with home court wins any of those games, bad bad news for the other team.   A flagrant on Kobe would have sealed the game but he would have no one to blame but himself.   He was 100% in the wrong for trying to fake a foul.

[Reality]

westkoast 

Um, Pop did say the suspension was UNWARRANTED.  Also Manu said he thought it was unintentional.  Reality its down right pathetic you have to make up lies as if you are not going to be called on it.  This is retarded even by your standards.

Here is a word for word recording of Pop on Ticket760 radio:
Q.  Coach, your reaction to the Kobe one game suspension?
Pop:  "I think it's appropriate, it was a pretty good whack and you know it is to the head and that's what the league is trying to protect.  You know anytime you have any contact above the neck, the league is going to look at it very closely...they are on top of that stuff."
Source link:  http://www.ticket760.com/cc-common/podcast.html
Pop Show 1-30-07 Part 1
Pop-Cast Pod-Cast the "listen" icon.
Interviewer asks him at 1:45 in and Pops answer starts at the 2 minute mark.

Would you like to respond to the board, since you are going to "call me out for my lies"?

westkoast

Care to address why you lied?  Or do you want to pretend like you didn't see the post?

While you are at it, please provide the board a link to your quotes of Pop.  It appears you could use a retard to help you with your made up quotations marks.   

westkoast wrote:  "This is somewhat surprising as the Spurs downplayed the elbow on Monday. "It's probably just a natural movement for a shooter coming down," coach Gregg Popovich said. "I doubt Kobe would do that. That's not his style." Maurice Evans will probably have a big night in place of Kobe."