Disgusted again.

[Skandery]

Two or three criminal trials for the pope, and the Catholic church will get it's act cleaned up QUICK.

This about the most hilarious thing I've ever seen you write, Joe....I mean I agree....but geez: "the Pope is aiding and abedding, throw his arse in jail", such simple logic on a such a grandiose enterprise, its refreshing actually.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning this debate I agree with Derek and Rick.  There is something unnatural about asking a person to go their entire lives without ever having a release.  It seems to me that a lot of the good catholic Priests were characters with the rich colorful backgrounds (..and released all they'll ever need to) who decided to put their lives in God's hands at an advanced age and went on from there.  But you're telling me a kid in his 20s or earlier entering a seminary and being expected to have no sexual release in any way, shape, or form, period, until he dies.  That is a joke.  I wouldn't be surprised if, as Randy put it, this ran from the priest to the bishop to the seminary teacher to those poor little boys that sit in the back with the white robes (what're they called again).  With the infrastructure to cover the whole thing up being just as sophisticated as the institutionalized molestation itself.  This is all disgusting, shameful and has absolutely no place in teaching people how to worship God.  

I take for granted the fact that in my spiritual life, I've never had to go "I'm glad I got out."  I'm sorry for that Westkoast...              

 

[Guest_Randy]

Joe, the US isn't going to arrest the Pope -- for several reasons:

1)  Political fall out would basically be political suicide (you might was well just paint a bullseye on yourself, give people loaded guns and make yourself an easy target).

2)  The Vatican is a close ally with the US.

3)  The Pope doesn't live in the US and he isn't going to be extradicted.

What they need to do to address this is go after the HIGHEST official they can find who knew about the situation.  This would be a REAL wake-up call for the Catholic power structure (and that's exactly what it is -- there is tremendous power, money and influence in the Catholic system).  You send him to a couple of years in jail and everything would vastly change, IMO.


Now, as for why it's happening -- I wanted to draw out what wk said:

sexual restraints put on members by the church doesnt all the sudden turn a straight male into a homosexual pedophile. There was something about those people that make them at least partially messed up i the head prior to any church involvement.

This is EXACTLY right -- and I'll disagree with Joe here -- while rape is a crime of power, I'm not sure that I would agree that pedophilia is.  This seems to, most often, be a crime of training.  I have actually worked with a few children who were sexually abused -- and in each case the abuser was abused as a child.  It's a VERY vicious cycle -- I'm not saying it makes it right but I believe it is probably true of the majority of abusers.  Now, when you have THIS kind of numbers and severity in the priesthood -- this causes me to stop and say "hmmm."  There seems to be a rampant problem with homosexual pedophilia in the Catholic church -- and I would proffer that when it's THIS bad, it's being taught (or at least someone or someones are abusing priests and TEACHING them to abuse children -- not saying that they are saying "this is what you need to do" but simply teaching them that it's "okay").  And when they "higher ups" simply move them from place to place rather than deal with the sin -- it makes me believe even further that this is the case.

Granted -- this is my hypothesis but I would love for an EXTERNAL organization to be tasked with getting to the bottom of this -- because I don't think you get this many abusers without having a LOT of abused priests.  And IMO, not all of the abused are becoming abuser priests -- making the problem even BIGGER than we see.


As for the Catholic Church as a corporation -- go back and look at the power they exerted during the middle ages.  Before this time, priests would say "God absolves you of your sin" -- during this time they changed it to "I absolve you of your sin."  That's a BIG difference, IMO.  They took the power of forgiving sins away from God and took it upon themselves (well, at least in the eyes of the people).  Not to mention, salvation (as a Catholic) comes from attending mass and receiving the sacraments.  They believe in what is called "transubstantiation" -- which means that they believe the wafer and wine actually become the literally flesh and blood of Jesus Christ -- which is what takes away their sin.  Without the sacraments they are doomed to hell.  

Now, for added twists -- during the Medieval Ages, priests (but esp. Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, etc.) rose to GREAT power -- many times even greater power than Kings.  Because the priests, etc. had the power of SALVATION (through the sacraments) -- and if the King, Lord, etc. didn't give them what they wanted or do what they wanted, it was not at all uncommon for priests to refuse sacraments.  Not saying that ever priest, Bishop, etc. acted in this fashion but it definately wasn't uncommon (see the story of the Three Musketeers -- which is of course fiction but based on the common thread of the day in which many Cardinals, etc. were often power hungry and greedy).  There are many of the great churches built during the Middle Ages that were built as a result of the power of salvation that the priests wielded far greater than a knight wielding an iron mace.

[Reality]

.

This is EXACTLY right -- and I'll disagree with Joe here -- while rape is a crime of power, I'm not sure that I would agree that pedophilia is.  This seems to, most often, be a crime of training.  I have actually worked with a few children who were sexually abused -- and in each case the abuser was abused as a child.  It's a VERY vicious cycle -- I'm not saying it makes it right but I believe it is probably true of the majority of abusers. [/quote]
 Randy,

I have worked with people who have worked with thousands of abuse victims.

Here are the stats:

Less then 2% of child abuse victims go on to become abusers themselves.

However, of serial molesters, 80% of them were abused.

Book "Victims no more" is a beauty.

So, you need to erase the stigma put on abused children that they are an abuse risk.  Very low.  They have enough going against them to have this added false stigma.  I realize you were not saying it dogmatically and indeed you were referring to the serials, no?

Also, how God and the teaching of no marriage and sex for apriest can even be remotely related to God.  It's a false man made teaching inspired by Satan.

As Skandery posted, while a minority may be able to handle the repression well, most cannot.  Gods arrangement of marriage is a beautiful outlet for this 100% normal urge.

The True God created sex.  Even the evolutionist need merely look at the makeup of a man and a women.  Its a perfect, natural fit.

[Guest_Randy]

.

This is EXACTLY right -- and I'll disagree with Joe here -- while rape is a crime of power, I'm not sure that I would agree that pedophilia is.  This seems to, most often, be a crime of training.  I have actually worked with a few children who were sexually abused -- and in each case the abuser was abused as a child.  It's a VERY vicious cycle -- I'm not saying it makes it right but I believe it is probably true of the majority of abusers.

Randy,

I have worked with people who have worked with thousands of abuse victims.

Here are the stats:

Less then 2% of child abuse victims go on to become abusers themselves.

However, of serial molesters, 80% of them were abused.

Book "Victims no more" is a beauty.

So, you need to erase the stigma put on abused children that they are an abuse risk.  Very low.  They have enough going against them to have this added false stigma.  I realize you were not saying it dogmatically and indeed you were referring to the serials, no?

Also, how God and the teaching of no marriage and sex for apriest can even be remotely related to God.  It's a false man made teaching inspired by Satan.

As Skandery posted, while a minority may be able to handle the repression well, most cannot.  Gods arrangement of marriage is a beautiful outlet for this 100% normal urge.

The True God created sex.  Even the evolutionist need merely look at the makeup of a man and a women.  Its a perfect, natural fit. [/quote]
 

I have worked with people who have worked with thousands of abuse victims.

Here are the stats:

Less then 2% of child abuse victims go on to become abusers themselves.

However, of serial molesters, 80% of them were abused.

Umm, Reality -- you need to go back and read my post.  You are looking at my post in reverse.  My question is -- how many of the priests (and these are priests that HAVE been serial molesters) were abused themselves.  If there are 63 priests who have become serial abusers -- then how big MIGHT the problem REALLY be in the Catholic Organization?

And there are some tremendous mitigating factors that your stats don't include:  like counseling, therapy, the extent (length) to which the abuse happens, the environment the abused was placed in after the abuse, etc.  Some of these factors will taint the stats you just quoted (just go ask the people you've worked with -- they can tell you that).

[westkoast]

Two or three criminal trials for the pope, and the Catholic church will get it's act cleaned up QUICK.

This about the most hilarious thing I've ever seen you write, Joe....I mean I agree....but geez: "the Pope is aiding and abedding, throw his arse in jail", such simple logic on a such a grandiose enterprise, its refreshing actually.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning this debate I agree with Derek and Rick.  There is something unnatural about asking a person to go their entire lives without ever having a release.  It seems to me that a lot of the good catholic Priests were characters with the rich colorful backgrounds (..and released all they'll ever need to) who decided to put their lives in God's hands at an advanced age and went on from there.  But you're telling me a kid in his 20s or earlier entering a seminary and being expected to have no sexual release in any way, shape, or form, period, until he dies.  That is a joke.  I wouldn't be surprised if, as Randy put it, this ran from the priest to the bishop to the seminary teacher to those poor little boys that sit in the back with the white robes (what're they called again).  With the infrastructure to cover the whole thing up being just as sophisticated as the institutionalized molestation itself.  This is all disgusting, shameful and has absolutely no place in teaching people how to worship God.  

I take for granted the fact that in my spiritual life, I've never had to go "I'm glad I got out."  I'm sorry for that Westkoast...

The thing is there is no release.  Masterbaition is a big sin in the catholic church.  Even doing that is looked down upon and could be a simple solution to a problem alot of them have.  Which is the need for a release.

Skandery as you can tell I am a bit bitter.  Its very hard to un-learn some of the things that the church drills into your head at a young age.  I am so glad to get out from under a church that uses fear and guilt to control their members.  They are the very best at doing it.
 

[Ted]

The thing is there is no release.  Masterbaition is a big sin in the catholic church.  Even doing that is looked down upon and could be a simple solution to a problem alot of them have.  Which is the need for a release.

Skandery as you can tell I am a bit bitter.  Its very hard to un-learn some of the things that the church drills into your head at a young age.  I am so glad to get out from under a church that uses fear and guilt to control their members.  They are the very best at doing it.

I read somewhere that masturbation was extremely common among the Catholic priests who became molesters. I mean, you've got to get sick of your own hand sometime, right? WoW? Is this true?

[westkoast]

The thing is there is no release.  Masterbaition is a big sin in the catholic church.  Even doing that is looked down upon and could be a simple solution to a problem alot of them have.  Which is the need for a release.

Skandery as you can tell I am a bit bitter.  Its very hard to un-learn some of the things that the church drills into your head at a young age.  I am so glad to get out from under a church that uses fear and guilt to control their members.  They are the very best at doing it.

I read somewhere that masturbation was extremely common among the Catholic priests who became molesters. I mean, you've got to get sick of your own hand sometime, right? WoW? Is this true?

Isnt it common among all males?  Especially married ones?

 

[WayOutWest]

I mean, you've got to get sick of your own hand sometime, right? WoW? Is this true?

That's why ahem...<QUOTE> G to the O to the D <END QUOTE> gave you two!  :moon:  

[jn]

"I mean, you've got to get sick of your own hand sometime, right?"

Depends on how many sock puppets you own.  

[Guest_Randy]

You know, between this conversation and WOW's sheep and cows, I'm feeling a bit nauseous right now!

[SPURSX3]

The thing is there is no release.  Masterbaition is a big sin in the catholic church.  Even doing that is looked down upon and could be a simple solution to a problem alot of them have.  Which is the need for a release.

Skandery as you can tell I am a bit bitter.  Its very hard to un-learn some of the things that the church drills into your head at a young age.  I am so glad to get out from under a church that uses fear and guilt to control their members.  They are the very best at doing it.

I read somewhere that masturbation was extremely common among the Catholic priests who became molesters. I mean, you've got to get sick of your own hand sometime, right? WoW? Is this true?

Isnt it common among all males?  Especially married ones?

LMFAO!

You always run back to your first time WK...

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  

[rickortreat]

God has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.  What the Church says it is, and what it really is are two different things.

The Church was the original political power to dominate the world after the collapse of the Roman Empire.

The Church controlled reading and writing, learning, technology and money.  They supported some at the expense of others. (that after all is what power is about for the small-minded) And have dominated politics in every area until they were thrown out.

Martin Luther and Henry the 8th both jettisoned the Catholic church.  Between them and the scottish enlightenment the Church was chased out of political power all over Europe.
The US was free from the Chuch from the beggining, and there was a big distrust of Catholic immigrants when they came to America.

The way to deal with this is to take away the Church's status as a religion.  Tax them as a business- they run private schools and own a lot of property.  This way you could place some governmental oversight on the Church and force them to report pedophelia, and prosecute higher ups for aiding and abetting.

This of course would piss of the hierarchy, but I can't think of a more appropriate way to deal with them.  I really don't know, but I would imagine enough Catholics are so distraught over this abuse of power, that they recognize that something needs to be done.

What WOW wrote really made me more upset than anything.  Mind control is the opposite of what a religion should be about.  A false belief system and handing yourself over to a God that isn't there and places the onus on you to exercise your free will to develop is a very serious mistake, and can only result in a perpetuation of  suffering for all involved.    

[WayOutWest]

What WOW wrote really made me more upset than anything.

WTF are you talking about?

[SPURSX3]

What WOW wrote really made me more upset than anything.

WTF are you talking about?

Maybe God didnt give him two WOW!  Did you ever think of that?!  you're so insensitive.... :rolleyes:  

[Joe Vancil]

This about the most hilarious thing I've ever seen you write, Joe....I mean I agree....but geez: "the Pope is aiding and abedding, throw his arse in jail", such simple logic on a such a grandiose enterprise, its refreshing actually.

And if simple logic were used on more grandiose enterprises, more people would agree with the outcomes.

Most people get considerably more responsible and receptive when society steps up to the plate and draws a line in the sand, and then enforces that line.  People talk about the "political impact" of such things.  The heck with that.  Anyone who cares about "political impact" cares less about DOING his job and more about KEEPING his job.  And that's the kind of person you need to "fire" from any sort of public service.

We are disgusted by the Church's inaction;  why aren't we disgusted by the inaction of PROSECUTORS?  At the minimum, this is INCOMPETENCE, and at worst, THEY'RE AS GUILTY AS THE HIGHER UPS IN THE CHURCH IN HELPING TO COVER THIS ALL UP.

I hate to think about what would happen if the current generation were alive in 1776.  "Well, the taxes are awful, and we don't get anything for them, and Britain is SO far away, but you know, it's not like we can do anything about it here in Boston.  Care for some more tea?"