Author Topic: Disgusted again.  (Read 5528 times)

rickortreat

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Disgusted again.
« on: September 21, 2005, 10:20:08 PM »
No offense to anyone here, but I'm very thankfull I was not a Catholic growing up.  I imagine you may have heard something about the priests in Boston abusing the children- pedophile sexual abuse, which was covered up by the Boston diocese Archbishop.  This of course allowed the priests to continue to assault young boys, scaring them psychologically.

Well, this just in, it happened in Philadelphia too, and according to a grand jusry investigation not just one, but two Archbishops covered up the abuse by the priests here.

This is a prime reason why I am distrustfull of religion.  The astounding hypocracy and abuse by religious people is so disgusting and so wrong that it is hard to comprehend.

Not only are the priests doing something heinous, but their superiors within the Church, actually help them and cover up the scandals, allowing them to abuse even more Children.  I'm not sure if I belive in Hell, eternity is a high price to pay for anything done in the world, but if anyone deserves to suffer for a long time, it's these types of people.

  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:

What kind of a religion can produce people like this, child abusers, liars and hypocrites.  It's certainly not a religion I would want to be involved in!

This is what happens when people are sexually repressed, all forms of psychic disease besets them.  The Church is sick, and the disease is self-induced.  Sex is the basis for life, it's not evil, but it demands respect.  The buddha taught that it was essential to gain control over one's sex life.  Somehow, I don't think what the Church does is in harmony with that ideal!

 

Offline SPURSX3

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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2005, 12:33:31 AM »
Quote
No offense to anyone here, but I'm very thankfull I was not a Catholic growing up.  I imagine you may have heard something about the priests in Boston abusing the children- pedophile sexual abuse, which was covered up by the Boston diocese Archbishop.  This of course allowed the priests to continue to assault young boys, scaring them psychologically.

Well, this just in, it happened in Philadelphia too, and according to a grand jusry investigation not just one, but two Archbishops covered up the abuse by the priests here.

This is a prime reason why I am distrustfull of religion.  The astounding hypocracy and abuse by religious people is so disgusting and so wrong that it is hard to comprehend.

Not only are the priests doing something heinous, but their superiors within the Church, actually help them and cover up the scandals, allowing them to abuse even more Children.  I'm not sure if I belive in Hell, eternity is a high price to pay for anything done in the world, but if anyone deserves to suffer for a long time, it's these types of people.

  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:  :nonono:

What kind of a religion can produce people like this, child abusers, liars and hypocrites.  It's certainly not a religion I would want to be involved in!

This is what happens when people are sexually repressed, all forms of psychic disease besets them.  The Church is sick, and the disease is self-induced.  Sex is the basis for life, it's not evil, but it demands respect.  The buddha taught that it was essential to gain control over one's sex life.  Somehow, I don't think what the Church does is in harmony with that ideal!
Rick, religion does not produce people like that, those people were sick to begin with.  I am not Catholic, and cannot stand what has become of the Catholic Church.  I have seen Catholic priests take advantage of women, mostly because these women feel they are "good men" just because they wear the the cloth.  They are just men, period, the pope is just a man, etc.  Why these sick bastards do this to children is beyond me, WHY DOES THE CHURCH COVER UP FOR THEM??? - The Vatican knows that they need followers to give them money so they cover it up as any other government body would to keep the public ignorant.  It's sick, it's wrong.  I would not blame "religion" as the cause for this.  It's like saying Islam is a terrible religion because of all the extremists out there.  You have bad PEOPLE out there rick, thats what it comes down to, those bad people draw the attention and then it's assumed that the entire denomination is foul, in this case Catholics make it look as if EVERY Christian based faith is foul.  I for one hope there are more good people out there than the bad, and that a lot of people want to follow their faith the way they think it is supposed to be followed.  "Religion" is merely the structure, the do's and don't's, the shake hands with and say "God bless you." to strangers during mass, etc.  It's the routine Rick, like someone goes to to certain store religiously, etc.  I never trusted the Structure, I put my belief in that It is what is inside the person that counts - after all, if God exists - and IMO He DOES exist - than why would anyone be foolish enough to try and fool Him??  Just because you go to mass, do your bit and then go home and be an ass all week until next mass does NOT make you a good person.  I am not saying I am a saint or anything like that, but I believe in God, and I believe that my personal faith is set in that i have a connection with God because of what and who I am INSIDE, not becuase I follow the routine of any Church.  All I am saying is don't generalize an entire faith based on these dirty bastards, it's like saying all blacks are bad because of a few thugs, or that all white peope are racist nazi's because of groups like the KKK.  Sick people, need to be dealt with legally, and not given leniency just because they are leaders of the Church, if anything they should be dealt even tougher punishment to set the example that it is NOT ok to hide behind the Church, nor is it ok for people like this to be left in charge of influence over MANY MANY believers.  
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Guest_Randy

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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2005, 08:30:15 AM »
Rick,

Just a couple of comments:

Quote
This is what happens when people are sexually repressed, all forms of psychic disease besets them.

Actually, I know several people who are not married and they are quite in control of their sexual behavior -- it hasn't stunted their personality, their life, etc.  However, there are many who strive to teach students these days that they can't HANDLE their sexual emotions rather than teaching them how to handle it.  But to say that just because people aren't having sex that they are sexually repressed just isn't correct.

Quote
The Church is sick, and the disease is self-induced.

Which church are we talking about?  Again, don't judge everyone just because of the sins of a few.  The bishops, etc. who have covered it up, IMO, are just as cupable -- perhaps MORE so than the actual priests who did it.  Because in covering it up, they refused to  not only address it but almost gave license to that particular priest by taking away the consequences (and showing him that they weren't going to deal with it no matter what he did).  

But "the church" is a pretty broad statement -- there are many in the Catholic church who are even more outraged than you are.

Quote
Sex is the basis for life, it's not evil, but it demands respect. The buddha taught that it was essential to gain control over one's sex life. Somehow, I don't think what the Church does is in harmony with that ideal!

Sex is the basis for life?  Well, I'm not sure that I'd necessarily agree with that statement but sex is a gift -- and I agree, it should be treated with respect.  However, I don't believe that is the message that young people get today -- whether it's from the church (that you are mentioning), the media, the NSA, planned parenthood, etc., etc., etc.  I don't believe they are teaching a message of respecting sex -- I think there message seems to be "go for it" -- regardless of the consequences.


One last note:

Quote
it was essential to gain control over one's sex life

for me, since I'm married, it means that my wife has control over my sex life!!!
 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  

Offline Derek Bodner

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Disgusted again.
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2005, 08:50:19 AM »
There were reportedly 63 priests who's molestations/rapes were covered up since 1967.  That's different priests, over less than 40 years.  That's nearly 2 different priests per year who began molesting kids.

these people may have been sick, but this is a much higher ratio than the general populace.  I think clearly the rules governing the way sex is handled in the church needs to be further investigated.  I can't say for certain that repressing sexual instincts doesn't have something to do with this much higher crime rate.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2005, 08:53:18 AM »
Quote
All I am saying is don't generalize an entire faith based on these dirty bastards, it's like saying all blacks are bad because of a few thugs, or that all white peope are racist nazi's because of groups like the KKK.
What?

You mean that's NOT true?
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jn

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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2005, 08:57:16 AM »
Just a quick note Rick.  I'm a bit surprised you weren't aware this was going on all over. Boston probably got unfair attention because it is known as such an Irish Catholic bastion and is a major media center.   In fact the ****head you call a Senator, Rick Santorum, blamed Massachusetts style liberalism in Boston for the abuse, ignoring the fact that the worst diocese, according to victim's advocates groups, was in good ol' conservative Kentucky.   Please, rick and dabods, do me a favor and vote that rat bastard out!

Ooopss,  got side tracked a bit there.  The abuse and cover up was indeed widespread.  Randy makes an excellent point that as horrible as it seems, when the topic of abuse comes up it is only about priests abusing boys and ignores abuse of women by priests and even the abuse among nuns.   That's not even mentioning the B.S.  schaudenfreude that came from members of other religions who like to pretend that sort of thing would never happen in THEIR church.

As an example a story came out recently that a priest in Seattle had impregnated a member of his church.  The woman asked for child support as a result.  The church's attorneys claim was that she was solely responsible because she had failed to use birth control.  So we're talking about a woman who, being a Catholic, had been told that using birth control meant she would go Hell and that the church and it's priests are infallable.  Suddenly when faced with legal responsibility for a child the church tells the woman she should have committed a mortal sin to make up for the priest's failings.  

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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2005, 08:57:54 AM »
Quote
I can't say for certain that repressing sexual instincts doesn't have something to do with this much higher crime rate.

I understand that -- but can you say that it does?  Is repressing sexual instincts really the reason?  

This kind of abuse is VERY high -- it leads me to believe that it also runs VERY deep.  I don't think the Catholic church wants to do an investigation but I think it would be worth it.  I guess when I see this many priests involved -- I begin to wonder if some of these priests weren't abused or led down this path by bishops, etc.  

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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2005, 09:08:18 AM »
One side note, in MANY states (Nevade is one) -- it is AGAINST the law to not report an incident of child abuse.  I would LOVE to see a bishop/archbishop who knew about repeated incidents and simply moved the priest from one place to another -- I would LOVE to see them held responsible for their actions.  To be placed in prison for not properly dealing with the situation and simply giving the priest(s) another chance to repeat his sins.  So far, the Catholic church is continuing it's old ways -- now, instead of moving priests around to make it go away they are simply paying money to make it go away.  I'd love for a Bishop/Archbishop who are as guilty as the priests to recieve jail time -- that would be the way to make sure this doesn't happen again.  

Quote
As an example a story came out recently that a priest in Seattle had impregnated a member of his church. The woman asked for child support as a result. The church's attorneys claim was that she was solely responsible because she had failed to use birth control. So we're talking about a woman who, being a Catholic, had been told that using birth control meant she would go Hell and that the church and it's priests are infallable. Suddenly when faced with legal responsibility for a child the church tells the woman she should have committed a mortal sin to make up for the priest's failings.

Isn't this amazing -- the church's attorneys basically have said "we really don't believe everything we teach our parishioners to believe."  I know of two separate events in Seattle that led to a mass exodus of the catholic church -- and caused several congregations to move to an "independent" catholic status (which is quite unheard of).  This kind of defense is so astounding that it makes you wonder how the Pope can even tolerate it!

rickortreat

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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2005, 09:22:20 AM »
Randy it's a simple as this:  The Catholic Church demands that it's priests and nuns take a vow of chastity.  Some people are capable of this and suffer no ill effects, but for most of us the desire/need is too strong to be surpressed.  So you have an institution which as one of its tenents says that you must abstain from sex to be pure, and therefore sex is a sin, and should only be done within the institution of marriage and only to have children.

It is a sick religion, and the sickness is caused by believing in false tennents about one's existance!

I never voted for Santorum, JN.  I was very unhappy when he was elected and nothing he has done has changed my opinion of him.  In fact, he's even more of a weasel than I thought, and has become one of Bush's lapdogs.  I would love to see him voted out of office.

I didn't know this about Kentucky!  From the few posts here, it seems this problem and other related sexual misconduct is rife within the Catholic church.  Makes it very hard to belive in Religion, and by some through extension to believe in God.

IMO, you're got it Randy, as far as your beliefs go.

That case in Seattle is a riot.  The women isn't allowed to use birth control by the Church, has sex with a priest and becomes pregnant.  Can't get an abortion because that is also a sin, and the attorney for the Church says it's her fault!  Talk about getting f@$%ed by the Church!

Good thing the belivers in Seattle have jettisoned the Catholic authority over this.  I wonder if this type of thing is what inspired Martin Luther.

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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2005, 09:29:58 AM »
It absolutely could have happened to them.  I'm sure there are reasons why they've done what they've done.  Either way, it had to have started somewhere, and you have to ask yourself why.

BTW, Randy, you're up for draft selection

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 10:20:47 AM »
I'll chime in here as I grew up going to catholic church.  While I was able to get myself out from under the church and the people inside the church before I got too old I can say the way its ran does have an effect on people.  Now whether the way they handle sex is directly related to molestation, I really cant tell you.  Is it possible? Yes but  the sexual restraints put on members by the church doesnt all the sudden turn a straight male into a homosexual pedophile.  There was something about those people that make them at least partially messed up i the head prior to any church involvement.

I can tell you that the guilt and way you are taught to feel if you do anything remotely "sinfull" does take its toll on alot of people.  Some people have been known to take it so far they go a little crazy.  Its hard for me to explain in text as youd actually have to grow up with that embedded in your head for you to fully understand.  Its similar to a huge anxiety attack for some people.  I remember being very young and some older kids in the neighborhood ended up popping in a porno when we were playing Nintendo and I was terified that I watched a whopping 30 seconds of it...like satan was going to rise up and burn my flesh right on the spot.  For DAYS after that you have this almost overwhelming guilt that youve 'sinned' and need to clean your soul.  I guess it works to keep people in line as it makes you feel so horrible inside but really its not healthy IMO.  Im glad I got out.
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Offline SPURSX3

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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 10:25:30 AM »
Quote
There were reportedly 63 priests who's molestations/rapes were covered up since 1967.  That's different priests, over less than 40 years.  That's nearly 2 different priests per year who began molesting kids.

these people may have been sick, but this is a much higher ratio than the general populace.  I think clearly the rules governing the way sex is handled in the church needs to be further investigated.  I can't say for certain that repressing sexual instincts doesn't have something to do with this much higher crime rate.
much higher ratio than the general populace?  how do you come bby that, it was news here that they let 1500 sexual offenders slip through in the evacuees that we got here in SA?  I am just curious how that ratio comes out to be higher than normal and how it reflects upon "religion" as Rick put it.  I am not defensing the Catholic Church or it's leadership, I think they should all be charged for aiding known sex offenders.  
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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 10:28:40 AM »
Randy really hit on the point that I wanted to hit on - the fact that when these incidents are brought to the attention of the higher-ups of the Catholic church, and those higher-ups do nothing, I see this as akin to a corporate structure shredding its documents to hide to hide the proof of misconduct.

Go to the source.  Charge the pope as if he's the head of a criminal organization.  By adopting a structure, the Catholic church has made it easy to get the hands around the throat of the person in charge.  Two or three criminal trials for the pope, and the Catholic church will get it's act cleaned up QUICK.  Either the child molesters will be excommunicated quickly, or the church will open up about incidents of abuse...SOMETHING will happen.  It always does when you can get your hands around the neck of the person in charge.

The fact that there's a problem doesn't surprise me.  The reason I say that isn't because of "repressed sexual urges of the clergy," but because of the elevated status enjoyed by priests - essentially turning them into religious "rock stars."  The difference is that their "groupies" are taught a different message about sex than the masses.  Conduct that we'd accept from our traditional rock stars is COMPLETELY unacceptable from a priest.

Keep in mind this:  most sexual abuse isn't about sex;  it's about power and control.  Any person placed in a position of authority has to maintain a difficult balance.  Enjoy power and control a little too much, and you find out it's as addictive as any drug.

And that's why I think the Catholic church's hierarchy contributes to this problem.  Catholics are taught to look up to priests, look up more to their bishops, more to their archbishops, more to the cardinals, and more to the pope.  This could easily become an attractive live to a person who wants to accumulate power and influence.

I've watched people throw their friends away just to spend time playing on MUDs, all because they want to advance up in the hierarchy and need their time in order to make that happen.  These are the kinds of people who attach themselves to the leaders of any group - wanting to "move up the ladder" - and willing to throw away anything or anyone once they are no longer useful...willing to discard one set of friends just to "trade up."

The only people who should ever be given power and control are those who can look at it the way a mechanic looks at a wrench...as a tool.  Anyone who ignores it shouldn't be given it, because they waste it.  Anyone who is willing to misuse it shouldn't be given it, because they abuse it.  Anyone who yearns for it shouldn't be given it, because they will only use it for accumulating more of it.  Only the person who looks at it realistically, and values it for what it is and nothing more.

The priesthood conveys with it power and control, as well as an advancement hierarchy.  Follow the path of power and control - the trappings of man - rather than God, and small wonder you'll find some of the worst sinners on the planet.  Christianity - in the way I was taught about it - is about SURRENDERING yourself to God...GIVING UP power and control...letting God direct your life instead of doing it yourself.  And, to this day, that's *STILL* my biggest struggle as a Christian...that desire to say, "Hey, don't worry about this thing, God...I've got it under control.  I can handle this one."  And that's why I have trouble with Catholicism.  It puts a chain-of-command - a FLAWED, HUMAN chain of command - between me and God.  If God is everywhere, and knows everything, and is all-powerful, then I know for sure that he's not "too busy" for me.  As his child, as his creation, I can go to him directly, like a son to his father.  I don't have to go through the folks he's set up as my guides, my advisors, my teachers.

Get just a little out of focus, and you're pursing advancement rather than the higher calling of God.  And that's what I think happens in the Catholic hierarchy.
 
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2005, 10:59:03 AM »
"The only people who should ever be given power and control are those who can look at it the way a mechanic looks at a wrench...as a tool. Anyone who ignores it shouldn't be given it, because they waste it. Anyone who is willing to misuse it shouldn't be given it, because they abuse it. Anyone who yearns for it shouldn't be given it, because they will only use it for accumulating more of it. Only the person who looks at it realistically, and values it for what it is and nothing more."

Easier said than done Joe.  Being a corporate slave myself ive watched people completely morph into a different person after being given a higher position.  This one person was a perfect choice in all of our minds prior to getting the promotion.  Now well......not very liked around here.  At all.

The catholic church is nothing more than a coporation with god/jesus as the Chair.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2005, 11:10:15 AM by westkoast »
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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2005, 11:10:19 AM »
Quote
Easier said than done Joe. Being a corporate slave myself ive watched people completely morph into a different person after being given a higher position. This person was a perfect choice in all of our minds prior to getting the promotion. Now well......not very liked around here. At all.

Been there, done that, too.  Happens quite a bit, actually.  And it's usually because the person wasn't properly given sufficient authority at his earlier position.

Quote
The catholic church is nothing more than a coporation with god/jesus as the Chair.

Don't know I'd quite agree.  I'd call God/Jesus the major stockholder, rather than the Chairman Of The Board.  The pope would be the Chairman of The Board.  Ultimately, you answer to the stockholders, but day-to-day, they don't issue that many commands to even the upper echelon.  And the Chairman doesn't really get involved in the day-to-day operation, but ultimately, the company follows his vision of what the shareholders want.

 
Joe

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