New Orleans refugeees

[WayOutWest]

Philosophical question for you . . . What is it about MAN that makes it the sole inhabitant of earth that is capable of evil? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Plain and simple, it's our intelligence that makes us evil.  Other species are capable of cruelty, seen Orca's being cruel to seals in some cases to teach their young, in other cases to just play with their food for a while.

We're just too good at thinking things thru for our good.

[JoMal]

Talk about spiraling completely out of control, how does a guy jump into a conversation like this one...

 

By wearing reeeeally big waders.

In all this talk about Japan and WWII, people are forgetting one minor little fact.  Right now, Japan is the second most powerful economic country in the world and their people enjoy one of the highest qualities of life in the world.  Eerily harkens back to my "greater good" philosophy.   

Oh, we aren't forgetting that; we just are not talking about it in reference to how WWII went.

We've spend a great deal of time talking about the innocents and the despicable power-hungry EVIL military leaders that put them in harms way in the first place.  Why don't we take a second and look at the motivation behind their actions.  The director of my group at work is a guy from China; his hometown was in the WWII occupied province of Manchuria.  Just this week, he gave me a great insight into the Japanese way of thinking.  He said "They always feel like they are in crisis!"  Which looking at the small size of their island and their limited natural resources, it is easily understandable how they fostered a militaristic regime to grab as much land (and with it resources to survive) as they could.  Once again it goes to my original point, are those military leaders truly evil to the core or did they believe they were doing what was right for their country and their people. 

Yes, Skandery, that is the reason the Japanese politicians and military leaders of the time gave for doing what they did, and the people living in those invaded areas...well....they just were in the way. What could they do?

Soon after signing the Declaration, we ourselves spent the next 150 years on the warpath driven by the idea of "Manifest Destiny" to expand and keep expanding, no matter who got in the way, until we had two oceans bordering a humongous, resource-filled country.  How is our bloody grab for land and resources any different from what those evil Japanese military leaders tried to do?  One has to have perspective. 

The difference is that the U.S. invasion worked and our government can now write the history books and refer to it as "Manifest Destiny".

Are all the Germans, as a people, evil and disgusting?

Honestly, I sometimes think they are.

Did they enjoy knowing they were under a regime that was committing genocide, did they even know about it.

Let's just assume they did, because I really do not like the Germans and they had a huge motivation to lie that they did not know anything after the war, didn't they.

Or was it the work of some truly deranged maniac.  <I can't really defend Hitler's actions as they pertain to the Holocaust, but his aspiration for power are not unlike many political leaders of the past AND present. > 

If every despot since were not at one time or another referred to as the next Hitler, it would make it easily to buy into that.

Have the Jews, themselves learned the terrible price of injustice and slaughter when they themselves have an entire nation under occupation and under fire.

From the Israeli's actions since they came to Palestine in 1947 to reclaim the lands from which they were forced to leave centuries ago, yes I would say they have learned EXACTLY how injustice and slaughter works. They are mostly the survivors and descendents of an attempt to completely annihilate them as a people. I would have to assume they are not very interested in letting anyone think they can do that again, and if it means to keep others in occupied states and under fire, it certainly appears they are willing to do that, regardless of world opinion.

This is a prime example of how the actions of one people against another turns to an unending stretch of similar actions for years.

JoMaL, when you make an assumption like this, do you not realize that you perpetuate the prejudice that is omnipresent in human nature.  You don't know for a fact the Japanese would have done that, you just opine that YOU are more sympathetic and responsible than THEM.  And I'm not playing the "Holier than thou" card, because I'm just as prejudiced, with my own socialized pre-conceptions as the next human being.

The Japanese of that time were not humanitarians. The United States of that time were not invading Japan, but trying to stem their expansionist's actions in the Pacific Rim. So excuse me for assuming that the Japanese would NOT have halted their militaristic interests once they had such a powerful weapon since they clearly needed to clear the conquered lands of the native inhabitants so they could move in for its resources. I doubt they would have considered that there could be long-term health problems with using nuclear weapons in the first place. Considering what they did in the conquered lands just using conventional weapons, it is not such a leap in logic to think that they would prefer a simpler way to achieve the same goal.

[WayOutWest]

JoMal,

I don't question the decision to drop the bomb, I completely agree with it.  We just can't play the "we're better than them" card.  Everyone is a baby killer, it just sucks that anyone was a baby killer.

[JoMal]

JoMal,

I don't question the decision to drop the bomb, I completely agree with it.  We just can't play the "we're better than them" card.  Everyone is a baby killer, it just sucks that anyone was a baby killer.

I think you mean we as a country "shouldn't" play the "we're better than them" card, because we seem to spin-doctor around that we feel we are just fine lately.

[rickortreat]

Some great posts here, guys.

But let's put this all in perspective.  If you read the prison planet article I printed a link to, on another thread, you'd realize that most wars are deliberate and planned by governments, NOT for the people but for themselves!  And the governments themselves are puppets of the real people with power, those with the money.  They use wars and times of economic distress to take over key industries, control over water, energy, chemical manufacturing, pharmaceuticals.  They are the souce of evil on the planet!  We are simply pawns in their game.

It is not unreasonable to think that Bush allowed 9-11 to happen.  It gave him justification to start two wars, and incidentally through our CIA we used to support both Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein!  How is it that three domestic flights can leave their flight path, and jets aren't screambled to intercept them and find out what's up?  That's standard operating procedure, and our boys were napping.  I can't belive that was an accident!

Ultimately, there's no reason to attack or destroy one another.  We are all essentially the same and have the same needs, wants and desires.  We can cooperate and trade with each other to get what we want.  That's the right way.  But sometimes people don't want to sacrifice anything to get what they want,  they lie, cheat and steal to get what they want.  That's the evil way.  The money people are from elite famillies that essentially run the world.  We are mere cattle to them, with little more significance.

The one thing they have over the rest of us, is that it's hard to belive the world is run by only a few people who have the power to pull the strings.  But money can get people to do anything, and if you can print it up for free like our central banks, you can control all the people you need to.  If you have the power to influence the media, influence what's taught in institutions of higher learning, influence legistlation, there's no limit to what you can accomplish.

If that's what you're grandparents did, you start to feel special, priveledged and different from the rest of us. The Bush familly has been in power in the US for generations, starting with Bush's granfather who was a Senator from Connecticut, who's familly made their money selling opium to the Chinese.  They own one of the founding banks of our Federal Reserve.  

We the people aren't intrinsically evil, we're easilly fooled when the truth can be obscured.  And all they have to do is pull on our strings... tell us the terrorists are out to get us, and ouilla, we're at war, we pass the Patriot Acts I and II, violate our constitution, give up our freedoms and watch our standard of living decline in the process, as we go into an endless war against an enemy with no home, no real weapons, just a hatred for the evil empire we have become.

It doesn't have to be this way.  But I see no way to change it, when the general population keeps voting for a doofus like Bush.

By the way Ted, that is the best definition of true evil possible.  Good job!

 

[Skandery]

JoMaL,

From the Israeli's actions since they came to Palestine in 1947 to reclaim the lands from which they were forced to leave centuries ago, yes I would say they have learned EXACTLY how injustice and slaughter works. They are mostly the survivors and descendents of an attempt to completely annihilate them as a people. I would have to assume they are not very interested in letting anyone think they can do that again, and if it means to keep others in occupied states and under fire, it certainly appears they are willing to do that, regardless of world opinion.

This is a prime example of how the actions of one people against another turns to an unending stretch of similar actions for years.

And its this never-ending cycle that truly is a shame.  I wonder if humanity ever 'evolves' past fear and vengeance.  

The Japanese of that time were not humanitarians.

Never accused them of being such.  Interestingly enough, a friend of mine lived in Japan a short while because of his love for all things far eastern.  He gave me this tidbit, "the Japanese are the most racist people in the world, but you'd never know from their manners."

So excuse me for assuming that the Japanese would NOT have halted their militaristic interests once they had such a powerful weapon since they clearly needed to clear the conquered lands of the native inhabitants so they could move in for its resources.

Excused...

But you assumed to the point that they would bring their own people and the entire planet to the brink of destruction.  Let's call them expansionist and militaristic, not planet destroyers.  

I doubt they would have considered that there could be long-term health problems with using nuclear weapons in the first place.

What makes you think they are a one-track society without an understanding of cause and effect.  We americans are allowed to use the BOMB because we understand the implications of that power and hold ourselves to moral standards others can't possibly achieve.  I'm never going to buy that one.

Rick,

We the people aren't intrinsically evil, we're easilly fooled when the truth can be obscured. And all they have to do is pull on our strings... tell us the terrorists are out to get us, and ouilla, we're at war, we pass the Patriot Acts I and II, violate our constitution, give up our freedoms and watch our standard of living decline in the process, as we go into an endless war against an enemy with no home, no real weapons, just a hatred for the evil empire we have become.

It doesn't have to be this way. But I see no way to change it, when the general population keeps voting for a doofus like Bush.

First JoMaL, and now you're depressing the crap out of me...

Sadly, this is very true.

 

[JoMal]

And its this never-ending cycle that truly is a shame.  I wonder if humanity ever 'evolves' past fear and vengeance.  

 

As Rick would argue, no. There is no money to be made by evolving above it.

Never accused them of being such.  Interestingly enough, a friend of mine lived in Japan a short while because of his love for all things far eastern.  He gave me this tidbit, "the Japanese are the most racist people in the world, but you'd never know from their manners."

Yes, the Japanese I have met, including my just recently concluded trip out of the country where I met a guy from Japan, are very polite, but I do not believe they are necessarily completely sincere.

Excused...

But you assumed to the point that they would bring their own people and the entire planet to the brink of destruction.  Let's call them expansionist and militaristic, not planet destroyers.

Ever hear of the old adage, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......."? Let's just agree that we all should be relieved that an expansionist and militaristic country of the 1930's and 40's, like either Japan or Germany, did not get the bomb first and leave it at that.
 

What makes you think they are a one-track society without an understanding of cause and effect.  We americans are allowed to use the BOMB because we understand the implications of that power and hold ourselves to moral standards others can't possibly achieve.  I'm never going to buy that one.

The Japanese "are" a one-track society without an understanding of cause and effect?

A Freudian slip??

I suggest not applying today's societal mores to a country like Japan was back in the 1930's. And I would certainly argue that the United States was still testing its newfound status as a world power back then as well, so it was not a question of being allowed to use the bomb - there was no one else to tell us not to.

We came to the brink of annihilation with the Russians just seventeen years after the end of World War II, but reason stopped us both just in time. We've been 'tested', so to speak, and after the way the war against Japan ended, we certainly were aware of the implications of that power. Plus, the generation that halted the expansionist powers of that era were still in charge and they all were keenly aware of those moral standards.

For others to possibly achieve the same level of awareness...and for an example of "others" who we can compare to the Japanese leadership of that historic era, let's use the leaders of certain radical countries like Iran and North Korea in THIS generation... they also must be tested. The United States stopped their test after two bombs and when the world saw the results. That clearly was a moral standard that could have seen a drastic alternative.

Now compare my examples of the countries mentioned in today's world to the world of expansionist Japan and ask yourself, if Western countries did not have the bomb, (and more of them), and both Iran and North Korea did, how well would you be sleeping at night?

Is that a high enough moral standard for you?
 

[Ted]

So how old are you, little fella?

30 and to show you how mature I am for my years . . .
 :moon:
 

[JoMal]

So how old are you, little fella?

30 and to show you how mature I am for my years . . .
 :moon:

...and I hope for your sake that one day you will grow into that nose.

[rickortreat]

Plain and simple, it's our intelligence that makes us evil. Other species are capable of cruelty, seen Orca's being cruel to seals in some cases to teach their young, in other cases to just play with their food for a while.

We're just too good at thinking things thru for our good.

Not that we're too good at thinking things through, not GOOD enough to avoid error and mistakes.

If we were really intelligent and had adequate forsight, we wouldn't make mistakes.

Not that the evil we sometimes do is necessarily a mistake.  For example, if we didn't use the bomb on Japan, many more American soldiers would have died, marching accross the Tokyo plain.

But on the other hand, we have Hitler, who unleashed an evil upon the world, and destroyed his own country in the process.  Many Germans have a guilt complex over the whole thing, even converting to Judaism as a means to make up for it.

There's a truth in here too.  Some people belive the end justifies the means, but in reality it is quite the opposite.  The means determine the end!

And another thing, our minds and our ability to think things through is a double-edged sword.  Use it the right way, and you can slice through your obstructions.  Use it the wrong way, and you cut yourself!

That's fair, isn't it?  Sort of like an invisible hand of God.....

 

[WayOutWest]

Use it the wrong way, ..............

That's my point Rick.

We are the ONLY species on earth that has that luxury.  Any other species that does NOT use their intelligence/cunning the RIGHT way ends up DEAD.  We have the luxury of using our brains in many different ways, unfortunately that opens the door to the wrong rooms.

[rickortreat]

Right you are WOW, but remember that sometimes consequences are long-term.  For quite a while Hitler felt like he was on top of the world,  taking over all of Europe from the Atlantic to the Russian border (Excepting England)

He made a critical error in not taking out England prior to invading Russia.  He may have been defeated anyway, but he had some new technologies like jets and those V2 missiles and a few months more would have made a big difference.

Why was Hitler so stupid to not secure the Atlantic side before attacking Russia?  Could it have been his lack of hubris?  Did the God's turn his head?  No one really knows, but we do know from history that Hitler lost the war and so did Germany.  The consequnces  of evil actions allways come back, eventually.  
 

[JoMal]

Right you are WOW, but remember that sometimes consequences are long-term.  For quite a while Hitler felt like he was on top of the world,  taking over all of Europe from the Atlantic to the Russian border (Excepting England)

He made a critical error in not taking out England prior to invading Russia.  He may have been defeated anyway, but he had some new technologies like jets and those V2 missiles and a few months more would have made a big difference.

Why was Hitler so stupid to not secure the Atlantic side before attacking Russia?  Could it have been his lack of hubris?  Did the God's turn his head?  No one really knows, but we do know from history that Hitler lost the war and so did Germany.  The consequnces  of evil actions allways come back, eventually.

If you insist on using Hitler as an example of genius gone bad, you might add the little caveat that the man was a seriously ill megalomaniac.

I am also not into spinning the idea that the German people felt THAT much guilt after the war. Where was the guilt during it? Or before they let Hitler's small Nazi party take over their country?

More likely, many Germans, conniving and selfserving people that they are, saw the writing on the wall and quickly covered their tracks to appear confused and shocked by what their country had tried to do to the Jews. There very well may have been a few Germans who disliked Hitler and what he was doing. But ole' Adoph cleverly had most of them executed long before they could make a stink about it.  

[Skandery]

Besides being a military genius (which I very much doubt) and megalomaniacally ill (which I have no doubt about), one also has to remember that Adolph Hitler was perhaps the most charismatic public speaker of the 20th century.  No one could whip up a people into a state of nationalistic fervor quite like he could.  It still wasn't enough to elect him as Premier (don't quite remember the term).  He was given a bureaucratic seat (something like Vice President), lot's of ceremony, no real power.  He then used his thugs (the Nazi party's violent arm) to burn down the state house and assume control of what he called the Third Reich as the Furer-something that's similar to Emperor.  So no JoMaL, it wasn't as if the Germans happily elected good ole Adolph to lead us to a better tomorrow.  Secondly, the Nazi Party was a minority in Germany, they were just the loudest and most violent.  Which brings me to propoganda on perhaps the grandest scale the world had ever seen at the time (present day Western Powers have far surpassed it, now).  Hitler's right hand man Gubbles, was all to happy to serve his duty in telling the German people through many different forms of media the reasons for the German "states" actions and policies, these ranged from misleading to unabashed lying.  So I'm going to hold off on crucifying the whole lot of WWII era German citizens.    

 

No one really knows, but we do know from history that Hitler lost the war and so did Germany. 

Yes the German did lose the war and ended up being split in 4 different regions each controlled by a different power (Russia, US, Britain, and France).  The US, Britain, and France regions quickly formed to make what was called West Germany and Russia controlled what became East Germany.  West Germany through the Marshall plan succeeded in regaining a powerful economic infrastructure,  East Germans worked hard and earned money but there wasn't quite the selection of a capitalistic market, so people just saved.  The union of East and West Germany brought the savings of the East with the infrastructure of the West and what do you know.  Germany is the third most powerful economic country.  Eerily harkens back to my greater good philosophy.  

 

Ever hear of the old adage, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......."? Let's just agree that we all should be relieved that an expansionist and militaristic country of the 1930's and 40's, like either Japan or Germany, did not get the bomb first and leave it at that.

Yeah JoMaL, I'm not quite ready to jump to, "If it looks like a planet destroyer, walks like a planet destroyer, and quacks like a planet destroyer..."

Now compare my examples of the countries mentioned in today's world to the world of expansionist Japan and ask yourself, if Western countries did not have the bomb, (and more of them), and both Iran and North Korea did, how well would you be sleeping at night?

About as well as if I were an Iranian or North Korean resident knowing that Western Powers have the bomb (and more them) than my people do.
   

[rickortreat]

Wait a minute there Jomal!  If you were a german around that time, and saw all the dissenters being rounded up and executed,  what would you do?  The easiest thing to do would have been to shut up and stay low, emigrate to South America if you could.

Even after the war, the US employed a lot of Nazi's to keep Germany going afterwards.  Only the leaders and the ones involved in the concentration camps and the SS were prosecuted.  Our whole rocket program was based on the work of Germans.

Some Germans tried to do stories, asking the people who lived around the concentration camps what they thought was going on.  A lot of them kept their mouths shut.  Maybe they were sympathizers and maybe they just wanted to forget about that evil.  Or they just didn't want to admit they were too scared to stand up to Hitler and be put away themselves.

There are some in Germany who feel very guilty about what they're country did, and most of them weren't even around when it happened.  On the other hand there are still skin-heads who belive Hitler was right and want to start it up again.

I try to stay away from generalizing when it comes to people and countries.  There are a lot of good people here in the US, and there are a lot of assholes too.  Are Germans really so different?  Isn't the US in it's own way almost as evil?  

As for Hitler, the man only had one ball!  He had to have been a whack-job from the beggining.  For a good portion of his life, he was a looser, until he found his special skill for speaking.  He was in the right place (an economically distressed country) at the right time, and he made Germans feel better about themselves.  They followed him down the path to their own destruction.

Sort of like the majority of US citizens who kept voting for Bush.  The Patriot acts stuff was copied right out of Nazi laws used to repress their own citizens.