Shaq - Duncan

[Reality]

Okay i don't want to rain on the 60s 70s 80s vs today topic.

But since we are speculating.....

Randy had Shaq and Tim Duncan over last night.  He baked them a cake.  However he had his Lakers glasses on and instead of cinamin he added cyanide.
Timmy Dunker and Shaq will live, but both are semi paralyzed and will never play again.

Who leaves with the better legacy?
Who was better?

Tim Dunker with 3 in 7 and all the trimmings?
Shaq when under 400 pounds and having 3* straight?

[SPURSX3]

Okay i don't want to rain on the 60s 70s 80s vs today topic.

But since we are speculating.....

Randy had Shaq and Tim Duncan over last night.  He baked them a cake.  However he had his Lakers glasses on and instead of cinamin he added cyanide.
Timmy Dunker and Shaq will live, but both are semi paralyzed and will never play again.

Who leaves with the better legacy?
Who was better?

Tim Dunker with 3 in 7 and all the trimmings?
Shaq when under 400 pounds and having 3* straight?

If you are going with what each has accomplished so far - Shaq leaves the bigger legacy.

If at the end of his career Duncan has racked up a few more titles, he will have a very good chance of leaving the better legacy.  thats not counting shaq out though.  Shaq has a team that can win a title, if he gets a few more rings he will become as immortal as MJ, IMO.

[Reality]

Who leaves with the better legacy?
Who was better?

Tim Dunker with 3 in 7 and all the trimmings?
Shaq when under 400 pounds and having 3* straight?

If you are going with what each has accomplished so far - Shaq leaves the bigger legacy.

If at the end of his career Duncan has racked up a few more titles, he will have a very good chance of leaving the better legacy.  thats not counting shaq out though.  Shaq has a team that can win a title, if he gets a few more rings he will become as immortal as MJ, IMO. [/quote]
 Clarification.

You are saying if Dunker gets a couple more, goes up 5 to 3* "he will have a very good chance of leaving the better legacy"?

Yet if Shaq goes up 5*-3 on Duncan "he will become as immortal as MJ, IMO".

[WayOutWest]

If it ends today, Shaq takes it.

3 titles to Duncans 2 1/2 is not the only determining factor.

[Joe Vancil]

If both guys die right now, there's no doubt that Shaq leaves the greater legacy.  About all Duncan has on him are MVPs and Defensive Team appearances.  

Shaq's got bigger numbers, a scoring title, and a longer career - plus an Olympic Gold Medal and a World Championship of Basketball Gold.

 

[westkoast]

No knock to Duncan but when he leaves the game he will be "one of the greatest power forwards ever"

When Shaq leaves he will get the title "the most dominating player in the last 4 decades"  (whether earned or not, depends who you ask...you ask reality you get a no :lol: )

Also, Shaq has taken 2 different teams to the finals and almost took his 3rd last year.  Duncan has not moved around and had the same success, cuz he hasnt moved around :lol:  

[SPURSX3]

Who leaves with the better legacy?
Who was better?

Tim Dunker with 3 in 7 and all the trimmings?
Shaq when under 400 pounds and having 3* straight?

If you are going with what each has accomplished so far - Shaq leaves the bigger legacy.

If at the end of his career Duncan has racked up a few more titles, he will have a very good chance of leaving the better legacy.  thats not counting shaq out though.  Shaq has a team that can win a title, if he gets a few more rings he will become as immortal as MJ, IMO.

Clarification.

You are saying if Dunker gets a couple more, goes up 5 to 3* "he will have a very good chance of leaving the better legacy"?

Yet if Shaq goes up 5*-3 on Duncan "he will become as immortal as MJ, IMO". [/quote]
 YES, the reason is Shaq has made more media for himself than Duncan ever will, even when he retires i am willing to bet he will still be pooping off about how good he was etc.  Tim is quiet and humble, Shaq isn't.  WK, got it right as in when TD retires even with a few more titles, he will "the greatest PF ever, etc."  Shaq is ALREADY considered a living legend.  Don't think so?  when everyone calls him the most DOMINATING player EVER - I consider that a legendary statement. Shaq only has three titles so far, maybe he will get more.  All I am saying is Shaq is already one notch shy of being on the same pedestal as MJ is as far as egos and popularity goes.  it would be interesting to see if they could do a global poll to see who is more famous: MJ, Shaq, TD.  MJ would still come in first IMO, Shaq a cloase second, TD wouldnt even come into the same ball park as far as popularity goes.  Shaq is almost there Reality, that's not saying that he really deserves it, but he has done well for himself as far as putting his name in the fans and players minds.

[Reality]

Clarification,

The question was not "who will the media and other people percieve as" having the larger legacy.  I couldn't give a crap about that.

The questions were who do YOU, fellow board member

1Who leaves with the better legacy?
2Who was better?
2 addendum.  Better to YOU.  I dont care what media types think.  Better basketball player.  Period.  Based soley on basketball playing.  Not rap records, crowd response, endorkments, TV appearances.

[westkoast]

Shaq is better and will leave with the better legacy because of it there ya go Reality.

Like I said:

Shaq "The most dominating player in the last 4 decades"

Duncan "One of the best PFs ever"

There is a big difference between the two.  Like I said no knock to Duncan because he will go down as one of the best PFs ever it just that Shaq is in a different class.

Shaq has everything Duncan has plus things like a scoring title, the greatest playoff run to date, and a complete domination of the league for 3 straight years.  I can only imagine what he could have accomplished (or still can) if he really puts 100% behind it.

[Joe Vancil]

Let me argue the "most dominating player in the last 3 decades."

Through the 90's, it was Jordan.

Through the late 70's and early 80's, it was Abdul-Jabbar.

Through the 60's, it was Chamberlain.

Shaq simply has the late 90's and early '00's.

That said, Shaq has simply put up the big numbers, won pretty much everything there is to win.  By the numbers, Shaq's more impressive.  By the accomplishments, Shaq's more impressive.

Is Shaq the better player?  YES.  It isn't "marketing" or "ego" or "publicity," Reality - it's pure and simple skill.  Duncan can do MORE things - but O'Neal does his fewer things *BETTER*.  And it's not like O'Neal is incredibly limited, either.  O'Neal isn't the defender that Duncan is, but he's a better scorer, an equal rebounder, and far better passer.  He's got superior post footwork to Duncan.

The downside is that O'Neal doesn't have Duncan's range or mobility.  Then again - when was the last time you saw O'Neal FORCED to pull up with a 10 foot jumper?  He simply doesn't get himself caught in that situation.  And in that regard, I think O'Neal is more aware of his own weaknesses than Duncan is of his.

Shaq's legacy is better, and that's because Shaq was the better player.

If you want a REAL argument, stack O'Neal up against Abdul-Jabbar.  Then again - to me, that isn't much of an argument, either...Kareem wins that in a cakewalk.

 

[WayOutWest]

If you want a REAL argument, stack O'Neal up against Abdul-Jabbar.  Then again - to me, that isn't much of an argument, either...Kareem wins that in a cakewalk.

Replace Shaq's name with any other center and the result is the same, Kareem was better.

Shaq is clearly the better player, Duncan may some day overshadow Shaq but if this years title run is any indication, Shaq has nothing to worry about from TD.

[SPURSX3]

Clarification,

The question was not "who will the media and other people percieve as" having the larger legacy.  I couldn't give a crap about that.

The questions were who do YOU, fellow board member

1Who leaves with the better legacy?
2Who was better?
2 addendum.  Better to YOU.  I dont care what media types think.  Better basketball player.  Period.  Based soley on basketball playing.  Not rap records, crowd response, endorkments, TV appearances.

OMFG - Reality I gave you my answer.  SHAQ leaves the best legacy.  I think it has to do with him getting so much media attention - that IS a factor in making a legacy in sports.   I think because IN MY OPINION Shaq would be more recognized world wide than Duncan.  not only is Duncan from small market san antonio, but Shaq is was in entertainment mecca Hollywood, making rap albums, movies, getting on sports canter recaps in english AND foriegn language afiliates, he won three titles in a ROW, he played under PHIL JACKSON - which helped because Phill was fresh off of his 6 titles with chicago legacy of his own.  Not to mention the media hype that Kobe vs Shaq created for him.  Media IS a factor Reality, the media put Shaq in the spotlight night after night practically, Shaqs numbers put him in the spotlight, Shaq's verbal spats put him in the spotlight, you dont remember shaq bringing down backboards in his early days?  didn't he slap a milwaukee buck during one game?  Didnt he get media for be a cop for a day, or two or three?  All of this sticks in peoples minds Reality, all of this is what helps build his legendary status, and all of this is what will help give him a legacy.  comapre that to what Duncan has done.  Tim does not come close to Shaq - YET.

which players is better, well despite that I am pro-Tim Duncan, Shaq has been the better player - he has been the most dominating player in the league - he took a expansion team to the finals with penny hardaway, and made them a power house in the east for a short while, he took a mediocre LA squad to the finals and wone three titles in a row - IMO the LA squad WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT WITH KOBE BY HIMSELF - sorry LA folks, he also almost got his third team - MIAMI - to the finals, and may very well do that this year.  Shaq has been fortunate to have a good sidekick on each team - Penny, Kobe and now Dwayne - that still does not Change the fact that he has been a force of nature on the basketball court.  All of which has added up to incredible numbers on the court - Do YOU think Tims career numbers look better than Shaqs numbers?  I dont.  Shaq was a tank in his youth, he is still powerful as an aging player, Shaq says he only has 3 years left in him - no way with his size and power even as an old man he could still be a better center in this league than most of the centers in the league right now.  Shaq has been around longer, been deep in the playoffs several times, won two scoring titles, was on a WINNING olympic squad...what else???  oh yeah here are SOME of the facts that add to his legacy for you:

Was named as a reserve to the Western Conference All-Star team and was named the 2004 All-Star Game MVP

Selected in 1996 as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History

Three-time NBA Finals MVP after leading the Lakers to back-to-back-to-back NBA Finals victories (2000, 2001, 2002)

Voted the 1999-2000 Most Valuable Player (regular season) by media
Four-time All-NBA First Team selection (1997-98, 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2001-02), two-time All-NBA Second Team selection (1994-95, 1998-99) and three-time All-NBA Third Team selection (1993-94, 1995-96, 1996-97)

Two-time NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection (1999-2000, 2000-01)
Nine-time All-Star selection (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002)

Co-MVP of the 2000 NBA All-Star Game after tallying 22 points and nine rebounds
Two-time regular season scoring champion after posting 29.3 ppg (1994-95) and 29.7 ppg (1999-2000)

Led the league in field-goal percentage five times (1993-94, 1997-98, 1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01)

Won the 1999-2000 IBM Award, determined by a computerized rating that measures a player's overall contribution to a team

Named 1992-93 NBA Rookie of the Year, and to the NBA All-Rookie First Team, after averaging 23.4 ppg, 13.9 rpg and 3.53 bpg

Member of gold-medal winning U.S. Olympic team in Atlanta (1996) and World Championship team in Toronto (1994)


 

but to answer your questions so there is no further "clarification"...

1Who leaves with the better legacy?  Shaq.

2Who was better?  for now, Shaq.

2 addendum.  Better to YOU.  I dont care what media types think.  Better basketball player.  Period.  Based soley on basketball playing.  Not rap records, crowd response, endorkments, TV appearances.

so far, Shaq.



Again, I am pro-Duncan, so picking Shaq isn't exactly something that makes me happy, but the truth is there is no comparison between the two right now.


thats like saying who has a better legacy?  Tim Duncan or Amare Stoudamire?


Tim leaves the better legacy - even though right now in this point in time, Amare is a bad @ss mo fo on the court who looks better than Tim and KG - but STILL YOU KNOW THE BETTER PLAYER BETWEEN THEM IS TIM DUNCAN.  Amare has a lot of growing to do before he could be at Tims level, Tim still has a way to go to be at Shaqs level Reality.  That's the way I see it.

[SPURSX3]

If you want a REAL argument, stack O'Neal up against Abdul-Jabbar.  Then again - to me, that isn't much of an argument, either...Kareem wins that in a cakewalk.

Replace Shaq's name with any other center and the result is the same, Kareem was better.

Shaq is clearly the better player, Duncan may some day overshadow Shaq but if this years title run is any indication, Shaq has nothing to worry about from TD.

WOW, in Tim's defense this finals, his wife was expecting to give birth to thier first child, the last game of the finals there were rumors that Tim would not be there because his wife had gone into labor.  despite the fact it is a big game, i wouldnt have blamed him for missing it for the birth of his first child - some things are just more important in life than work - or in this case, basketball.  I am not saying THAT is the reason, but I think if it was me, it would be a factor.

OF COURSE, it could also be an indication of Tim's BIG problem of beating himself up mentally and shutting down at the worst moments, so you very well could be right.  Tim has the ability to rack up as many titles as MJ and make a name for himself as not only "the best PF ever" but also put him on a level as MJ.  Time will tell.  But yes, Tim has a huge problem of breakdown mentally on himself that infuriates me as a Spurs fan.

[Reality]

Clarification.

Randy accidently gave the cyanide to Duncan and Shaq, not you who have posted.

back later this eve....

[JoMal]

Okay i don't want to rain on the 60s 70s 80s vs today topic.

But since we are speculating.....

Randy had Shaq and Tim Duncan over last night.  He baked them a cake.  However he had his Lakers glasses on and instead of cinamin he added cyanide.
Timmy Dunker and Shaq will live, but both are semi paralyzed and will never play again.

Who leaves with the better legacy?
Who was better?

Tim Dunker with 3 in 7 and all the trimmings?
Shaq when under 400 pounds and having 3* straight?

If Shaq were semi-paralyzed, how would we know it? :bash:

Can you say, "This is like comparing apples to applejack"? :drunk:

Both have legacies that you could classify as being above average for your typical NBA superstar. Someone said that Shaq has done better because he led two different teams deep into the playoffs. I would say, so has Duncan. His Spurs squad from his first championship has changed a bit compared to his last one.

But Duncan can never be the physical presence of Shaq. Because of that, unsurprisingly, Tim actually went out and developed more creative offensive moves, put better use to his natural quickness, and learned to dominate games in his own style.

The question that should be asked is, which one of these players took better advantage of the natural abilities given to each to begin with? My personal feeling is that Shaq is naturally dominant and clearly has terrific coordination for someone his size, but his free throw shooting and the absence of any decent shot outside six feet tells me he is lazy and clearly underdeveloped those talents. And why does he disappear from collecting more rebounds so often?

Can you ever say the same thing about Tim Duncan? I would have to say that Duncan has had the harder road to success because he never was gifted with the body that O'Neal was given, so his legacy can be looked upon as requiring more work to achieve.

And I certainly would consider that in any comparison between the two.