A.I. and Webber to reduce salaries

[Joe Vancil]

Magic Johnson came to the Lakers via the draft pick which Utah sent Los Angeles in exchange for Gail Goodrich.

I thought Mychal Thompson came from Portland.  I don't think he ever played in San An.  I don't know the exact deal.

Kareem came to Los Angeles for Brian Winters, Dave Meyers, Junior Bridgeman, and one other guy, I think, but I'm not sure who.  I'm pretty sure it was for 4 players.  All I know is it was like the entire Milwaukee team that I knew.

[rickotreat]

Anyone who thinks that the champions of the late 90's would be competitive with the best teams of earlier years doesn't know what they're taliking about.

Most of those teams that your comparing your Spurs and Lakers and Pistons to had 5 or 6 Allstars at least.  There was no salary cap, no free agency and fewer teams.

The teams in the late 80's, the Lakers and Celtics were all clearly inferior to the '83 Sixers, which SWEPT the Lakers after cushing the Celtics.  After Philly fell out of it, those teams moved to the forefront, and they were also better prior to '83 but Moses put them way over the top of any other team.

By the time the Pistons won, the talent level had dropped dramatically.  The Jordan years were characterized by some of the weakest teams ever.

We may have seen some improvement since then, but the rule changes have altered the game.  The allow zone defense now because most players can't play defense.  They can't score either.  The average game put up by the Sixer in 67 was around 120.  You really think Kareem or Parish could have handled Wilt in his prime?  I don't think Shaq could handle him.

Just how well do you think the Lakers or Spurs would do against a Celtics or Lakers team from the 60's or the Sixers squad that won 68 games.  IMO, they wouldn't have even made it to the finals in those years to play those teams!  

[Guest]

Thompson did come from the Spurs (although I don't know for who or what):

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the league's premier big man, made it known that he would not return to Milwaukee after the 1974-75 season, demanding instead to be traded to either New York (where he had grown up) or Los Angeles (where he had attended college). He ended up going to the Lakers for Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, Junior Bridgeman, and Dave Meyers.

When the Lakers had let Gail Goodrich go to free agency prior to the 1976-77 season, they had no idea how significant Goodrich's departure would be for the team's future. Because Goodrich signed with the New Orleans Jazz as a veteran free agent, the Jazz had to compensate the Lakers. New Orleans did so by giving Los Angeles three draft picks, including its first-round pick in 1979. When the Jazz (who moved to Utah in 1979) finished with the league's worst record in 1978-79, the Lakers found themselves holding the No. 1 overall pick in the 1979 NBA Draft.

 
Once again the Lakers made a couple of key offseason moves, letting go of Maurice Lucas, moving A. C. Green into the starting lineup, and picking up Mychal Thompson from San Antonio.

[Reality]

According to your logic TD should not have waited that long.  He should have gone to the Lakers in 02.  G-Nob or not, he wasn't the difference in their first title run, not to mention he was unproven, so TD, by YOUR logic, should have been on the Lakers already.



 

Where is it written that "my logic" Duncan should not have waited one more year for a title?

"My logic" results in great matchups, not one team winning vs wimpy competition.  Never has "my logic" said Duncan had to become a Flamer.  Quite the opposite.  "My logic" would have had DRob taking a pay cut and lesser role far far before he finally did 1/2 of that in '03.  I needed Dunker to be surrounded by a complimentary cast.  Sean Elliots health woes took a few years to build again.  That is what happened.  GNob was drafted in 1999.  It was not written in stone that he could not become a Spur until 2003 playoffs.  Duncan/Spurs had hoped he could become a Spur for the 2002 playoffs.  Alas it didnt happen.  GNob most certainly did make a valuable contribution to the 2003 champs.

"My logic" would have Joe Johnson staying on Phx.  Did you not enjoy a few of the Suns/Spurs playoff games this year?  Sure SA won 4-2 but a few of those games were barnburners, very good matchups.  

The drama nonsense that is L.A. is exactly why Duncan wouldn't have and shouldn't have ever gone to the Lakers.  Down to Earth GNob is a much better fit for Timmy Dunker then Kobe Mediafest.

The '87 Spurs didn't get squat for Mychael Thomson.  Plus whatever happened to "you dont trade in your own Conf", esp when it was exactly what the Lakers needed at the time.  It was a complete ass kissing by the Spurs mgmnt to Lakers.

As you know and have known, i have no problem rating the '01 Lakers as an ass kicking good team.  Not just their literal play but their attitude.  While Shaq has access to more refined/better steroids and Human Growth Hormone then the 87 Celts did, I'm confident the 1-2 punch of Bob Parish and healthy Billy W. could have matched up with Slim Shaq.  McHale would have a field day with Grant.  Who is gonna guard Bird? :up:   While Kobe would give DJ all he could handle, DJ contained Magic Marketer in '84.  Ainge would have a field day on O vs De'Reek Swisher.  But Tex would pull Fisher and put Brian Shaw in.  Yes it might  go 7.  Celts in 6 more likely.

It would be a good matchup.  What my logic wants.

[Joe Vancil]

Philadelphia's '83 championship team didn't face Boston, because Boston was crushed by Milwaukee.  Milwaukee was the only team to take a game from that 76er team in the playoffs - losing 4-1.  That was all that prevented Malone from being accurate with "Fo', fo', fo'."

I just got over a battle on FanHome where I said that I felt the '04 Pistons were a better DEFENSIVE team than the '89 Pistons.

The idea that "today's teams couldn't compete" is rubbish.  Those teams that can control tempo can always take games from those teams who don't like to play at that particular tempo.  The depth from the earlier years would have to be contended with, but the proper set of players from any era could, under the proper conditions, take it to a set of players from any other era.

 

[rickortreat]

I'd agree with you that the more recent Piston team played better defense, but the earlier team was even more intimidating.

But your not considering just how much watered down the league is now.  The teams back in the 80's were loaded.  Everyone of the starters on these teams was an all star or defensive or offensive team player.  Neither the Spurs or the Lakers could have controlled tempo or matched a team like the 83 Sixers basket for basket.

And as good as that 83 team was, the 66-67 Team would have crushed them.  You think Mo Cheeks could have held down Hal Greer?  Or Mark Iavaroni could handle Luke Jackson?  Even Dr. J would have had his hands full with Chet Walker.  And as good as Moses was, Chamberlain would have dominated him like he did everyone else.  Andrew  Toney was a better player than Wally Jones,  but that was it.  

At one point in his career Chamberlain was as big as Shaq- weighing over 300 lbs.  And Wilt led the league in assists one year.  I remember a young Shaq getting schooled by Akeem Olajuwon.  Chamberlain could have stopped Shaq, but on the other end of the floor, Shaq wouldn't even have slowed Wilt down.

Those Celtics teams with Russell and Havlicek were phenoemenal.  There isn't a team in the NBA today that could have won a seven game series against them.  

We think Shaq has a great game when he pulls down over 10 rebounds.  Wilt used to pull down 30 some games.

It's not even close Joe.  The players weren't as athletic on the whole, but they were much more fundamentally sound.  They knew how to dribble, pass, shoot and run plays with precision.  I was just a kid when I watched the Sixers and Celtics in the EC finals.  It was a war.  I'm still waiting to see a better game or a better series.
   

[WayOutWest]

There is no way in hell Wilt could contain Shaq.  There is no player that can handle Shaq.  Same goes for Wilt, he could not be handled when he was on offense.  Some players get to a certain level were there is not much you can do to contain let alone stop them.

Wilt was a great center but I have a hard time putting my money on a heartless player like Wilt.

I'd take the 86 Celts and 87 Lakers over any team in the 80's.  I'd take the 01 Lakers over anybody.  Shaq could just cream any 80's team and that would result in the same scenario as the 01 run.  Shaq getting the focus of attention on defense and freeing up the other Lakers for wide open jumpers and cuts to the basket.  It would be murder.

[rickortreat]

Westkoast did you ever see Wilt play?  There's no comparison in terms of cordination ability, sound fundamentals, shot variety, passing and court awareness.

Wilt could shut anyone down on both ends of the floor.  He had faded by the time Kareem entered the league thanks to age, but he dominated the NBA's big men for years.

And he didn't need any gimmme calls from the ref.  

Shaq ever score 100 pts. in a game?  Ever lead the league in Assists?

Both of them could have used attitude adjustments at one time or another, but that and their size is about the only thing they had in common.

Shaq is very competitive in today's NBA, but back then he'd have been a stiff.  Too fat and slow to run the floor, and to stay with a player like Wilt.  

[Joe Vancil]

For the best team I've ever seen, my money is on the '83 Sixers.  I think that team beats the '01 Lakers.  In fact, I think the '00 Lakers team beats the '01 Lakers.

I agree with WayOutWest's assessment that neither Wilt nor Shaq could contain the other one, because players can advance to the level where they cannot ever be truly contained.  I'd also put Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Hakeem Olajuwon in his glory days in that list.

As for putting money on a "heartless" player like Wilt, I could say the exact same thing about Shaquille O'Neal.  Seems kind of strange, but  two of the most dominant post forces in basketball history seem to have made a reputation for themselves as being difficult to motivate.

 

[Guest_Randy]

Westkoast did you ever see Wilt play?  There's no comparison in terms of cordination ability, sound fundamentals, shot variety, passing and court awareness.

Wilt could shut anyone down on both ends of the floor.  He had faded by the time Kareem entered the league thanks to age, but he dominated the NBA's big men for years.

And he didn't need any gimmme calls from the ref.  

Shaq ever score 100 pts. in a game?  Ever lead the league in Assists?

Both of them could have used attitude adjustments at one time or another, but that and their size is about the only thing they had in common.

Shaq is very competitive in today's NBA, but back then he'd have been a stiff.  Too fat and slow to run the floor, and to stay with a player like Wilt.

Just clarifying -- is this Rick or Writerman?

Sorry, Rick but you are VERY wrong!  The idea that the best centers played years ago is a myth.  The best centers have been spread out over the years -- Wilt, Russell (although I think he's better as a PF), Kareem, Hakeem, DRob, and now Shaq.  These guys COULD play in ANY century!  There is no way that Shaq could have stopped Wilt -- but there is no way that Wilt could have stopped Shaq either.  Sure, you saw Wilt stop MUCH smaller players -- but Wilt NEVER played with ANYONE who was even close to being as tall as he was until the end of his career (see Kareem).  Most of the guys Wilt played against (esp. in the beginning years when he set all the records) were 6'9" and the tallest was 6'10" (and he was as thin as a beanpole).  

Wilt WAS very conditioned -- and it's the reason he was able to have a long career but he had the benefit of not having to play against tall players every night.  Today, we have 7'0" small forwards -- go back and check rosters back then -- small forwards were shorter than most of today's shooting guards.  If a team was lucky enough to have a 6'9" or 6'10" center -- their PF was 6'7" or 6'8".  That's a HUGE difference when you are double-teamed (or triple-teamed).  Today when Shaq is double-teamed -- it's usually by a couple of players close to the 7'0" mark -- and sometimes a team like Detroit can put 3 big guys on a guy like Shaq (Prince's arms make him the equivalent of a 7'0").  

Shaq has had to play against players who were taller and some who were almost as big as he did.  Wilt never played against anyone close to as big (or strong) as he was -- and Wilt NEVER played against anyone taller than he was.  

You've falled prey to the "good old days" syndrome (that and an incredible dislike for Shaq).  I'm not a Shaq fan but while Wilt was a center WAYYYY ahead of his time -- he certainly wouldn't be putting up 100 point games today.  I do think he could have dropped a 60 point game (like Shaq did when he was in his prime, motivated and in shape) but he wouldn't dominate Shaq -- they would battle, much like Shaq and Zo did when they first came into the league.  

[rickortreat]

One of the interesting things about this discussion is how integral a good big man is to winning an NBA chamionship.

The thing is, when the game is on the line at the end, the refs let a lot of things go, to allow the outcome to be determined by the player.

IMO, the reason a big man is such a critical piece is the he's the go to player in those final minutes.  They are harder to stop, and they are shooting from a high percentage location on the floor.

Kareem had his unstoppable Sky-hook.  Olajuwan had the dream shake.  O'Neil has moves, but how many times did he have to execute against a player of comparable size and strength?  Wilt had so many moves, there was no one signature one that defined him.

The stats on blocks aren't available from back then, but Wilt was an amazing shot-blocker as well. He couldn't stop Kareem's Sky-hook though.  If Shaq had a move like that, or a move where he didn't simply push a defender out of the way, I would give him more credit.  But his unstoppablity seems to be more related to his size and strength.  In the old days the NBA didn't allow that kind of contact. If a player got knocked down there was a foul called.

The 83' Sixers were phenominal, but note that you didn't put Moses on your list as being unstoppable.  



 

[Guest_Randy]

Kareem had his unstoppable Sky-hook. Olajuwan had the dream shake. O'Neil has moves, but how many times did he have to execute against a player of comparable size and strength? Wilt had so many moves, there was no one signature one that defined him.

How many times did O'Neal have to execute against a player of comparable size and strength?  PLEASE!!!  Let's start the list (over the course of Shaq's career):  Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Zo, BMiller, Ostertag, Ilgauskas, Ming (taller than Shaq), Oliver Miller, Nesterovic, Duncan, Polynice, Bradley (also taller than Shaq) -- I COULD go on, couldn't I?  The league has a TON of 7 footers today! I didn't say that all of these players were good -- simply answering your question -- how many times has O'Neal had to execute against a player of comparable size and/or strength?

Now, let's start the list on Wilt -- when was it that he had to execute against a player of comparable size and strength?  It wasn't until VERY late in his career!  There were a few 6'10"/6'11" guys that came into the league a couple of years after Wilt did -- but that was after Wilt had already set his records, wasn't it?
Again, even those teams that had a 6'10" or 6'11" guy -- what was the rest of the roster like?  SA has two starting 7'0" players -- Wilt NEVER played against ANYTHING like that, did he?

Go back and check roster size because Wilt didn't play against ANYONE remotely of comparable size and strength until Kareem came into the league very late in Wilt's career.  Also, remember that Wilt came into the league after playing pretty much professional ball with the globetrotters -- he was ready for the NBA and he set his records at that point before the league had any other big men.

 

[Joe Vancil]

I didn't put Moses Malone on the list for being unstoppable because Malone wasn't unstoppable.  Malone's quality was his relentlessness.  Miss the 2-footer, grab the rebound....miss it again, grab the rebound...miss it again, grab the rebound...and draw the foul.  Moses didn't have the "finish" ability that Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, Shaq, or Olajuwon had.

Consider this situation:  you're down by 1, with 3 seconds on the clock.  The above players get the ball, and you know the ref isn't going to call a foul.  Who is the least likely to score?

No contest.  Malone.  Shaq dunks.  Abdul-Jabbar sky-hooks.  Chamberlain finger-rolls.  Olajuwon shoots a turn-around.  And Malone misses the shot short, but grabs the rebound...as time expires.

 

[JoMal]

Neither Shaq or Wilt had 'heart'?

Maybe they just did not have a Shaq or Wilt to challenge them enough every night to LOOK motivated.

As for debating whether teams from different eras could compete with one another, I never thought it ever made much sense, because each era contains its own level playing field, so to speak, as to conditioning, size of players, quality and talent of the bench players, backgrounds, whatever. For that reason, I seriously doubt teams from the sixties or seventies could compete with the teams of the eighties or nineties.

George Mikan was a monster talent in his day, but with everyone having at least one player bigger and more conditioned then him on today's squads, he can consider himself lucky he played in an era where he was a novelty.

[westkoast]

I just got over a battle on FanHome where I said that I felt the '04 Pistons were a better DEFENSIVE team than the '89 Pistons.

The idea that "today's teams couldn't compete" is rubbish.  Those teams that can control tempo can always take games from those teams who don't like to play at that particular tempo.  The depth from the earlier years would have to be contended with, but the proper set of players from any era could, under the proper conditions, take it to a set of players from any other era.

I guess Fanhome posters are mistaking beating players up as great defense.  IMO its harder to play tough defense in this league now than it was then.