Malik says goodbye

[Reality]

 

>Look at the "PER GAME" stats and you can just how productive he has been >throughout the year.  

If you look at Horry and Maliks "PER GAME" stats you can "just how" see that they are about the same.  Next.

>But hey, I guess if a player has a sporadic 20+ point game everyonce in a blue >moon I guess that makes them untouchable.  WRONG.

I don't think so but let me interupt the argument you are having with yourself.

>Look, real Spurs fans can see it was good for the team, hell even Laker fans can see it was good for the team - AND for Malik.  

That explains why no one posted any info on Mohammed.  As to Randy liking the trade, I have no desire to snuggle with you, Randy and whatever other Lakers want to watch tape of the Lakers eliminating the Spurs while eating popcorn and swishing pom poms around.  Of course he loved all the Big Shots that Rob hit vs the Spurs last year.  The Most Overated Team of All Time was facing a 2nd Round and out.  You apparantly loved it right along with him.    Tell what Horry has done the past two years that is soo much better then Malik.  Leave 2002 and back out of it.  Horry was great then, but it's no absolute guarantee he will keep it up.  He hasn't that last two playoff years.  Randy that you loved Horry for 2002 and back is great.  I hope he returns to form and hits the big shots/makes the big pass again.  

>The REALITY is you probably dont watch enough games to REALLY know what having a back up center would do for us, and what little use we had out of Malik because PER GAME he was not used very often.


Changing the subject or misquoting posters has become a lame far too often used tactic on this board.
I watched the entire Spurs-Lakers playoff series last year.  Without changing the subject, why don't you and Randolph fill in the following:  Horry was so much better then Malik vs the Lakers because _____ _______.....

That the Spurs need a backup center being realized by you is....whats the point?  
That's been known for 2+ years.  I've wanted a better center for the Spurs since 2000.  At issue is what they would give up to get the backup center.  You claim Malik was the Spur to be traded.  Its all good trading Malik.  I say the trade may work out, lets wait and see.  Which is why i posted lets see what Mohammed can do in a Spurs uniform.  I raise the point that perhaps it should not have been Malik who was shipped for Mohammed, due to the heart and teamwork all those who Really watch the Spurs games with basketball intelligence have seen.    Rose was not and is not the ballhog you paint him to be nor is Horry this year or last years playoffs assist machine you make him up to be.  Do tell again how Horry did passingwise vs the Lakers in the elimination playoffs.
Far far better then Malik?  Have another cup.

[Guest_Randy]

Reality, you are SOOO twisted it's hard to even know where to start.

First, you actually state that statwise, Malik and Horry are about even.
Here are the actual stats:  
            FG%   3pt%   FT%   Stl    Blk   TO    Reb   Ass     Pts
Horry    .428    .323   .80     2.14  2.3   2.5    8.8    3.5    14.5
Rose     .46      .00     .68     1.8     .5   3.0   12.8    2.2   17.3

Rose shoots a better FG% but Horry spreads the floor, obviously, with better outside shooting.  You have to HATE Rose's FT% and Horry is better in steals and MUCH better in block shots.  Rose is a better rebounder and in assists -- Rose scores more points per minute.

However, you aren't even including the intangibles that Horry brings to the floor that Rose doesn't.  Horry is a GREAT team defender -- he has a great feel for the game and is a better weak side defender than anyone on the Spurs outside of TD and Manu (Manu does a great job of filling passing lanes).  These intangibles are the reason he has gotten more minutes than Rose has.  If the Spurs needed post defense, rebounding and an inside scorer they would utilize Rose more -- but they already have the best in that (the best outside of Shaq in that category) in TD so they really need someone who spreads the floor more than someone who just brings his defender back down into the lane with him.  Horry is better suited for the Spurs offense and defense -- he runs the floor better than Malik does and moves without the basketball better than Malik does.  

Unless I had a huge deficit in rebounding and post scoring, I would choose Horry over Malik every time -- and it's not because I don't like Malik -- I do, the guy is one of the best post defenders that I have ever seen (pound for pound -- I'd say the best is Cliff Robinson) but he doesn't move without the basketball, he doesn't like to pass the ball and he isn't much of a weak side defender.  

Here's the difference:  What you see is the stat lines is what Malik gives to your team (with the exception of the chemistry but you aren't losing with Horry and Malik are a wash in that category) -- but you won't see everything that Horry gives you in the stat line.  

[SPURSX3]

He does not get it Randy.  He probably fingures that the reason Malik is gone is because of tension with Pop, or maybe thats why Horry was first off the bench before Malik.  The thing is Pop builds his team on success and plays the better players first.  Horry is doing more all around stuff on the court than Malik did.  Malik better than Horry, not on the court - and look Malik has a lot of heart - but Horry is like a Manu Ginobili king of player - he does more than the stat sheets reflect.  

The point of looking at the "per game" stats is to point out to you that Malik did not supply a lot for our team offensivele.   As for the other players, i pointed out that Horry and Rasho dont perfrom that well stats wise - BUT what they do now is what matters, the pressue off of Tim, and large presence in the post...REALITY, make note that I AM talking about this season - I dont care if you watched every playoff game and Tivo'd them - THIS SEASON, Horry does not have to do as much, for example when we needed a 3 pointer in a game LAST YEAR - Horry was an OPTION.  THIS YEAR - Pop would look to Manu, Devon, Brent, Tony, Beno...

So were does Horry fall in on all of this?  do we need him to shoot this season? not as much as prior seasons.  so why would pop keep him over Malik??  because he does MORE than ANY OF YOUR STATS suggests, he is taller, better reach, can rebound well, can shoot, pass, and is quicker than Malik.  

I dont like that Malik was traded, he is one of my favorite Spurs.  always will be.  But I am pointing out to you that it is business and there is a good reason why he is gone, Horry on our team is THE BIGGEST REASON, had they not resigned horry, I bet Malik would still be here despite the high contract.  Pop is not an Idiot, he has proven himself to be a very good coach, Tim Duncan or not, his coaching record stilll speaks volumes for his defense first mentalty.  He made the right call, Horry is the better player between the two - so he kept him.  and got us a backup center that we needed.  

I look forward to your bold print ramblings of nonsense in response to this....shmuck.   :cheers:  

[Reality]

not a word from either one of you on Horry when it counted in last years playoff vs Spurs.
And to you X3:  Wimp.  

Intangibles that Malik brought are none?  Fertilizer.
 
At any rate this post needs to end with props to Malik.

[SPURSX3]

not a word from either one of you on Horry when it counted in last years playoff vs Spurs.
And to you X3:  Wimp.  

Intangibles that Malik brought are none?  Fertilizer.
 
At any rate this post needs to end with props to Malik.

Reality, Horry didnt LOSE the series for the Spurs.  The whole TEAM lost.  As for talking about last years performance, he did what Brent barry did against HIS old team the Sonics...which was Nil.  does what he did mean we have to base our current team on the plays from the PAST?  I have YET to hear a word of THAT FROM YOU.  you are so stuck on trying to prove your point on what Horry did, and frankly it doesnt matter what horry did last year in the playoffs, he still comes through time in time out, and for one bad series I should agree with your assesment??  I dont think so.  Manu IS the Spur who will always be remembered as allowing a shot to fall in .4 seconds.  Does that answer your "drrrr, well what about last years playoffs??  drrrrrrrr..." question???

shmuck....you have just been voted off the band wagon.  we needed the room for Tim Duncans pet rock that has more knowlegde in his rocky core than REALITY will ever have...for the record Tim's pet rock is named Merlin.  :nonono:  

[westkoast]

Horry is far from a scrub.  I dont think its fair to judge what he brings to the Spurs by what he did (or didnt) do last year against the Lakeshow in the playoffs.  Horry could have played like he did in Houston and the Spurs could have had the same results.  He was not the reason why the Spurs lost....the Spurs just couldnt adjust to the counter punch thrown by the Laker defense on Timmy and Parker.  Besides, Horry lost ALOT of gas by the amount Pop was playing him during the regular season.  We all could see how tired he was by the time they got to the playoffs.  Obviously he helped the Spurs out alot last year during the regular season and has been pulling his fair share when he comes in this year.

With all that rambling above......id keep Malik over Horry right now.  Horry is done after this season.  His energy level come playoff time has been iffy the last 3 years also.  Having him play more minutes again isnt going to help that.

[SPURSX3]

Horry is far from a scrub.  I dont think its fair to judge what he brings to the Spurs by what he did (or didnt) do last year against the Lakeshow in the playoffs.  Horry could have played like he did in Houston and the Spurs could have had the same results.  He was not the reason why the Spurs lost....the Spurs just couldnt adjust to the counter punch thrown by the Laker defense on Timmy and Parker.  Besides, Horry lost ALOT of gas by the amount Pop was playing him during the regular season.  We all could see how tired he was by the time they got to the playoffs.  Obviously he helped the Spurs out alot last year during the regular season and has been pulling his fair share when he comes in this year.

With all that rambling above......id keep Malik over Horry right now.  Horry is done after this season.  His energy level come playoff time has been iffy the last 3 years also.  Having him play more minutes again isnt going to help that.

West - if we did not have Luis Scola coming to the spurs next season, i would keep malik also.  but with malik and scola on the same team, no way wuold it be a good move to keep him.  horry is here to do what malik could do and then some on a smaller, shorter contract.  

[Reality]

[/QUOTE]
>Reality, Horry didnt LOSE the series for the Spurs.  The whole TEAM lost.

2 + 2 is 4.  The Earth is round.  Donuts go well with coffee.   Whats your point?  I never questioned or even inferred Horry was the sole reason they lost.

Lets see Brent Barry missed shots vs Seattle therefore the Spurs should make no adjustments. :crazy:

>frankly it doesnt matter what horry did last year in the playoffs,

This sums it all up for me.  That Horry did not make a shot in games 3, 4 and 5 means nothing to you.  Don't play the assist card because he only had a few.  Would not have helped the Spurs one iota if he would have drilled some of his Big Shot Robs?  Oh yes it would have helped tremendously.  It was a huge indicator that perhaps Horrys gas in the tank is waning.  Should we base everything of last year?  No.  (Besides its the last TWO years playoffs that Horry has been off.)  Should we base SOMETHING off that?  A smart coach who is actually trying to win would take much note.  Popavitch was on the verge of blowing the 2003 playoffs.  Steve Kerr in large part bailed his butt out.  An observer who wants to see them win might grasp this.  I don't need westkoasts view to validate, however there is another poster, and a Laker at that, who agrees perhaps Horry tank is getting low and maybe (not dogmatically but maybe) Malik should not have been the one to go.

Thruout I've said i don't know enough about Mohammed.  You dont either.  No one else did, not even a post on him other then quoting his stats.

Malik is gone.  Mega props to what he did for the Spurs in 1999-2004.  Yes I do base what a player might do in the future as to what he did in past , both old and recent past.  Entirely?  No.  But i dont entirely ignore it either.  Horrys shooting role can be diminished due to the players you mentioned, Barry Manu etc.  But he will still need to hit a shot.  He can't do another 0 for 3 straight games playoff vs a title contender.

At any rate we agree that with Mohammad now perhaps Duncan can get relief from the Rasho-Monhammed combo.

[Guest_Randy]

This sums it all up for me. That Horry did not make a shot in games 3, 4 and 5 means nothing to you. Don't play the assist card because he only had a few. Would not have helped the Spurs one iota if he would have drilled some of his Big Shot Robs? Oh yes it would have helped tremendously. It was a huge indicator that perhaps Horrys gas in the tank is waning. Should we base everything of last year? No. (Besides its the last TWO years playoffs that Horry has been off.) Should we base SOMETHING off that? A smart coach who is actually trying to win would take much note. Popavitch was on the verge of blowing the 2003 playoffs. Steve Kerr in large part bailed his butt out. An observer who wants to see them win might grasp this. I don't need westkoasts view to validate, however there is another poster, and a Laker at that, who agrees perhaps Horry tank is getting low and maybe (not dogmatically but maybe) Malik should not have been the one to go.

Okay, your gums are flapping but very little substance is coming out of it.  Horry didn't have a good playoff series against the Lakers -- but he isn't the only Spur to fall into that category -- Rose didn't play well in the ENTIRE playoffs -- here is something to help you come back to reality.

Against Memphis: Game 1
           Min    FG    3pt    FT    Reb    Ass    Stl    TO    Blk    Pts
Horry   16     5-6    0-1   --       5       1      ---      1      1     10
Rose    15     2-3    ---    --       0       3        1      2     --       4

Game 2:
Horry   28      6-9   2-3   --       10     1        3      2       1     14
Rose     2       0-1   --     --       --      --       --     --      --     --

Game 3:
Horry   27      1-4    0-1   --       12    2        0      1       0     6
Rose     8       0-2    --     --        5     --      --      3       2     --

Game 4:
Horry    29     4-7    4-5    2-2     6     1       --     --       --    14
Rose      6      0-1     --       --     --    --        2     --       --    --

Against the Lakers:
Game 1:
           Min    FG    3pt    FT    Reb    Ass    Stl    TO    Blk    Pts
Horry    23    0-2    --     --       5       --      --      2      --     --
Rose    ----------------------------------------------------------------

Game 2:
Horry   17     1-3   --      --       4       --       --     1       --      3
Rose   -----------------------------------------------------------------

Game 3:
Horry    12    0-0   0-0     2-2    2       1       1       --     --      2
Rose     15    1-6   0-2     2-4    7       2       1       1      --      4

Game 4:  
Horry      7    0-1   0-1     0-1    6       1       --      1       --     --
Rose      11   1-2    --        --     1       1       --      --      --      2

Game 5:
Horry     27    0-4   0-3     --      6       --      1        1       --     --
Rose  ------------------------------------------------------------------

Game 6:  
Horry     25  3-7    1-5     5-6    7      2       3       1       --      12
Rose        1  0-1    ---      ---     4     --      --       --      --       --

So the REAL facts are as following:
1)  Horry had a better series in round 1 of the playoffs than Rose did -- beating Rose out for time -- here are your averages for round 1:
           MPG     FG    3pt    FT     Reb    Stl   TO  Blk  PPG
Horry     25   16-26  6-10  2-2    7.7    .77    1   .5    11
Rose       8     2-6     --      --       1      .77  1.2  .5     1

As for the Lakers, the results aren't pretty for EITHER player.  I still wonder how Rose managed to get 4 rebounds in one minutes -- otherwise, he didn't do anything (although he didn't play many minutes either).

Horry played very well for SA -- a solid role player for not only a great part of the season but the first round of the playoffs -- Rose didn't fare as well in either the first round or second round.

[Reality]

-- Rose didn't play well in the ENTIRE playoffs -- here is something to help you come back to reality.


 

The "ENTIRE" playoffs.  You mean all 27 minutes he played in Round 2 vs Lakers?
Compared to Bob Horrys 109 minutes?  Talk about twisting stats.

As for the Memphis sweep, Rose with 8 minutes per game.  

Yes Malik did not play well either vs Lakers.  That makes Horrys 3 Game drought justified.  :crazy:

I hope Horry has a great playoffs this year.
I hope Nazr Mohammed makes Malik proud and the Spurs do what they should have done last year.

Since this thread was started and intended as a send off prop to Malik, if you can't end without somekind of a prop to Malik, could you refrain?  Or make it on a new thread.

[Guest_Randy]

You NEVER cease to be an idiot, Reality!  Let's stop and look at who brought Robert Horry into this thead, shall we?

Here ARE the facts Rose and Horry got IDENTICAL minutes in several games in the playoffs -- each time Horry outplayed Rose:

Against Memphis: Game 1
Min FG 3pt FT Reb Ass Stl TO Blk Pts
Horry 16 5-6 0-1 -- 5 1 --- 1 1 10
Rose 15 2-3 --- -- 0 3 1 2 -- 4

Game 3:
Horry 12 0-0 0-0 2-2 2 1 1 -- -- 2
Rose 15 1-6 0-2 2-4 7 2 1 1 -- 4

Game 4:
Horry 7 0-1 0-1 0-1 6 1 -- 1 -- --
Rose 11 1-2 -- -- 1 1 -- -- -- 2

It's not like Pop didn't give Rose a chance -- it's just that Rose didn't DO anything with that chance!  

I already stated that I like Malik and I certainly hope that he gets a chance to play ball somewhere -- the guy is not only a solid player but a good citizen (something that the NBA needs more of) but Horry outplayed him in the playoffs last year and you keep harping on how Horry played -- unfortunately, Malik played WORSE than Horry -- the 2004 playoffs were not good for Malik Rose!

[Guest_Randy]

This is my biggest beef and biggest disagreement with you. Horry can not (well did not) do what Malik did. Horry shot 23% vs the Lakers and did not make a 3 pter in the 6 game playoff series. Malik was benched for 4 of those games vs the Flamers. That aint right!  In the 74-73 miracle game, for all intents and purposes the elimination game, a tight defensive low scoring game is exactly where Malik excells on both ends.

Just wanted to quote you, Reality!  Horry can't do (or didn't do) what Malik did?  Malik shot 2 for 9 -- forget how many minutes he played, he shot 2 for 9!  That 22% in the playoffs against the Lakers!  You are trying to punk Horry for shooting 23% and exalting Rose for shooting 22%?  Oh, why don't you try their rebounding for 48 minutes a game in the playoffs -- who got more rebounds?  

This thread started OFF as a tribute to Malik -- but YOU are the one who changed it -- if you don't like it, look in the mirror!

[Reality]

This is my biggest beef and biggest disagreement with you. Horry can not (well did not) do what Malik did. Horry shot 23% vs the Lakers and did not make a 3 pter in the 6 game playoff series. Malik was benched for 4 of those games vs the Flamers. That aint right!  In the 74-73 miracle game, for all intents and purposes the elimination game, a tight defensive low scoring game is exactly where Malik excells on both ends.

Just wanted to quote you, Reality!  Horry can't do (or didn't do) what Malik did?  Malik shot 2 for 9 -- forget how many minutes he played, he shot 2 for 9!  That 22% in the playoffs against the Lakers!  You are trying to punk Horry for shooting 23% and exalting Rose for shooting 22%?  Oh, why don't you try their rebounding for 48 minutes a game in the playoffs -- who got more rebounds?  

This thread started OFF as a tribute to Malik -- but YOU are the one who changed it -- if you don't like it, look in the mirror!

Malik did not play in the 74-73 game.
Don't let that stop you.

22% as it was is a bad % for Malik.
Comparing the 1/5th of the minutes Malik compared to what Horry played is..well, you.  
Game 3 and 4 vs Mem, ya Horry sure did "outplay" Rose.

Props to Malik, thanks for punking the Lakers in the playoffs when you were getting big minutes in the Legit Championship year.  

    Try twisting that one around, Flamer.

[Guest_Randy]

How about twisting this around, lack-of-reality:

What did Malik do in the games where he and Horry played equal minutes?  Huh, answer that!  

22% as it was is a bad % for Malik.

If you aren't going to chastise Malik for shooting 22%, then I think you have to give Horry a break on the 23% -- doesn't that make sense?

Oh, and why didn't you respond to the rebounding issue (one of Malik' stronger points compared to Horry).  Why don't you do the math on RP48 minutes played during this playoff run?  

Oh, and why you are at it -- why didn't you notice what Horry did in the Memphis game?  Did you fail to note that?  It's the reason WHY he played more minutes in the Lakers series -- and then when he wasn't performing, Pop brought in Malik and gave him a few more minutes than he was giving Horry and what did Malik do?  Nothing -- how many rebounds did he get in game four against the Lakers in 11 minutes?  One!  One rebound!  Guess you want to overlook those stats, huh?  

Face it, Pop DID give Malik some minutes in the playoffs -- but Malik failed to produce in those minutes!

Props to Malik, thanks for punking the Lakers in the playoffs when you were getting big minutes.

Oh, you mean "punking the Lakers" to the Lakers three NBA Championships?  I agree -- thanks Malik for making that happen!  

[westkoast]

Ok so what ive got from this thread....

Horry is the sole reason why the Spurs lost to the Lakers last year in the playoffs.

Malik Rose is the sole reason why the Spurs have beat the Lakers once in the last 5 years during the playoffs.