Author Topic: Question on keepers  (Read 18988 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Question on keepers
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2005, 01:38:44 PM »
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What is the incentive to trade FOR KG if he's just going to be in the draft after this year anyway.

It's obvious why someone would do this.  If they have the dept to give up two 2nd/3rd tier players for one 1st tier player with ONE less season of eligibility to win the leauge then good for them.

Quote
The incentive to trade KG would be to get someone to give you more value to acquire a stud keeper, thus increasing your chance at winning a championship and their chance of doing good in future years.  Would they do this knowing KG is going to be back in the draft?

OF COURSE NOT!

Says who?  Some might do it to give them a shot at winning the league, don't make it seem like it's out of the relm of possibity.  You're only giving up an extra playings season or at the most two.

I think it works out pretty well, you go into trades knowing when you are forced to give up players and you can determine what your ROI will be in the end.

I'm completely against your scenario of trading KG for AI/Okafur and only getting one season out of them.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Question on keepers
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2005, 01:40:52 PM »
An easy minor change would be that players can only be keepers for two consequtive offseasons, regardless of who "kept" him.  After that they have to be put back into the draft pool.  In that case a player like AI had his keeper status "reset" when he was redrafted.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2005, 01:41:20 PM by WayOutWest »
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Offline Lurker

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Question on keepers
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2005, 02:03:57 PM »
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An easy minor change would be that players can only be keepers for two consequtive offseasons, regardless of who "kept" him.  After that they have to be put back into the draft pool.  In that case a player like AI had his keeper status "reset" when he was redrafted.
That basically is Joe's proposal....with the caveat that the two trades of keepers that have already occurred are grandfathered.

So the 24 keepers from last season have 1 off season of keeper eligibilty left unless they re-enter the draft.  Anyone drafted this past season has 2 years.
 
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Offline Lurker

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Question on keepers
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2005, 05:30:30 PM »
IMO we need to bring this issue to a vote or some other resolution.....and quickly.  The reason I raised the question was because it came up in trade discussions with another manager.

I see it as two alternatives at this point.

1) Each player can be held by a manger for two offseasons.  Then the manager must either trade the player before the trade deadline in year 3 or allow them to become a free agent.  A player who is new to a manager (either via trade or draft) has the two year period start over.

2) All players have a maximum of two off seasons prior to becoming free agents regardless of who exercises their "keeper" status.  At the end of their 3rd season they automatically become free agents and enter the draft.

I can live with either alternative....but just want to know what the rules are as it could effect trades this season.  As far as my team....I will have two new keepers this season as I have already traded one nad the other isn't as good as some I drafted this year.  Also I feel I have been competitive with arguably the weakest set of keepers from last season.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2005, 05:36:04 PM by Lurker »
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Offline WayOutWest

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Question on keepers
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2005, 09:47:41 AM »
Quote
IMO we need to bring this issue to a vote or some other resolution.....and quickly.  The reason I raised the question was because it came up in trade discussions with another manager.

I see it as two alternatives at this point.

1) Each player can be held by a manger for two offseasons.  Then the manager must either trade the player before the trade deadline in year 3 or allow them to become a free agent.  A player who is new to a manager (either via trade or draft) has the two year period start over.

2) All players have a maximum of two off seasons prior to becoming free agents regardless of who exercises their "keeper" status.  At the end of their 3rd season they automatically become free agents and enter the draft.

I can live with either alternative....but just want to know what the rules are as it could effect trades this season.  As far as my team....I will have two new keepers this season as I have already traded one nad the other isn't as good as some I drafted this year.  Also I feel I have been competitive with arguably the weakest set of keepers from last season.
I think number 2 was the implied agreement from the start.  A keeper can go two CONSEQUTIVE offseason before entering the draft, in the case AI/Wade, thier status was RESET because they were in the draft this year.
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Guest_Randy

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Question on keepers
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2005, 10:02:09 AM »
I, too, would like to see us put this to a vote and move on.  I'm concerned of the effects on #1 on the managers at the bottom of the league but a vote would allow them to vote their own opinion and that would be quite fair.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Question on keepers
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2005, 11:14:43 AM »
No, 1 was the agreement from the start.  It was clearly said that a player cannot be declared by the same manager for more than 2 years.

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The 2 years is determined by the number of consecutive offseasons that you have declared the player as one of your two keepers

This is the first time this issue has come up.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Question on keepers
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2005, 11:18:42 AM »
My votes (in order of what would be the best):

1) Keeping it the way it is (this problem is not as big as people are making it to be.  This is NOT a solution, there are loopholes, and this limits other trades, and causes problems).

2) Completely re-drafting after 3 years (IMO these proposed changes take away from the intention of a keeper league.  The best way to have both worlds, IMO, is not to completely change the meaning of a keeper league but to re-start it every so often and get a fresh start.

3) My proposed variation of the new proposal

4) Joe's proposal.

-----------------------------

If we are going to vote on a change, we need 2 things;
1) to get EVERYONE to vote
2) to decide on what % is needed for change.

Offline WayOutWest

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Question on keepers
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2005, 11:31:46 AM »
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My votes (in order of what would be the best):

1) Keeping it the way it is (this problem is not as big as people are making it to be.  This is NOT a solution, there are loopholes, and this limits other trades, and causes problems).

2) Completely re-drafting after 3 years (IMO these proposed changes take away from the intention of a keeper league.  The best way to have both worlds, IMO, is not to completely change the meaning of a keeper league but to re-start it every so often and get a fresh start.

3) My proposed variation of the new proposal

4) Joe's proposal.

-----------------------------

If we are going to vote on a change, we need 2 things;
1) to get EVERYONE to vote
2) to decide on what % is needed for change.
My vote is to more clearly define the two offseason max to mean two CONSEQUTIVE offseasons regardless of who kept them (AI and Wade are the examples).  Had I traded AI to Randy last season then he could only keep AI one more offseason but since I dropped him and Randy drafted him he's got two more offseason of keeper eligibility.  Should I trade Shaq or Yao to anyone then they only have one more offseason of keeper eligibility.

I think we should take the congress veto rule of 2/3 majority to change the rules.
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Offline Ted

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Question on keepers
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2005, 05:34:49 PM »
I vote for the proposal that will allow me to keep LeBron and Shawn Marion forever.

No seriously. I thought our original agreement was pretty clear. I vote for that.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Question on keepers
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2005, 05:48:11 PM »
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No seriously. I thought our original agreement was pretty clear. I vote for that.
So you vote for the managers of KG, TD and Dirk to trade those guys to each other for as long as the league exists?

Brilliant!
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Question on keepers
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2005, 12:28:18 PM »
First of all, I can't believe anyone would trade 2 top-level keepers with 2 seasons of eligibility left for Tim Duncan for no seasons of eligibility.  At best, you might get 2 second-tier keepers, 1 with two seasons of eligibility.

I'd like to see anyone pry Nowitzki out of Ziggy's hands with an offer of multiple players...or Garnett out of DaBods's hands with an offer of multiple players.  I know my position:  unless I'm getting Nowitzki or Garnett PLUS more players, Duncan isn't going anywhere.  Unless I'm absolutely robbing the other manager *AND* getting one of the three folks I see as being the true elite (Duncan, Nowitzki, Garnett), Duncan isn't going anywhere.

Don't know how Ziggy and Dabods feel about their super-elites.

When Duncan's got no more elibigility, though?  Well, then I'll just trade him for one of the other super-elites.  After all - why not?  Why trade for a lesser keeper when the big guns are in the same situation I'm in?

And why would I trade Duncan for 2 lesser keepers if they are only going to have the same eligibility that he is?  I'm better off keeping Duncan.

Dabods correctly points out the benefit of me trading Duncan for two keepers of longer eligibility.  What you're not answering, though, DaBods, is "Why would the person GETTING Duncan do that - especially next year?"  The ONLY answer I can come up with is that the manager doing that is trying to win in the current year, and knows he's in for a long rebuilding process afterward, whereas the player trading away Duncan is looking to the future rather than at the present.  If I'm languishing away in 10th place - what is the benefit of keeping an expiring Tim Duncan?  

You ask what keeps a manager from tanking?  The draft lottery.

What I like about my idea is first, the simplicity, and second, the fact that NO MATTER WHAT, Duncan-Nowitzki-Garnett go through the lottery (at worst) after next season...no matter how they move around.  It's known.  Managers can plan for that.  But if I move Duncan for Garnett today, under our current rules, your planning goes down the toilet.  Garnett, Duncan, and other elites will *NEVER* go through the draft.  And in my opinion, the draft is better at redistributing talent (and playres) than trades are.  In the 2006 off-season, the top three picks in the third round are likely going to be Nowitzki, Duncan, and Garnett in no particular order.  And they'll be kept for the maximum 2 off-seasons.  Those three managers with the top 3 draft picks will be smiling - because, most likely, they'll have the weaker sets of keepers going into the draft, and will have a strong set coming out of the draft.  And the people who are competing for the championship are the ones who are more than likely picking at the end of the draft...and its likely that they've got other reasonably strong keepers, since they WERE competing for the championship.  The top teams generally have stock-piles of talent - which is what makes them the top teams.  And almost always, they're looking to trade 3 Reggie Millers for one Kobe Bryant.  They're not looking to trade one Kobe Bryant for 3 Reggie Millers.  Their roster is too deep to allow that.

Essentially, one great is worth several very goods, but usually, most people would rather have the one great.  The only reason you'd rather have several very goods than one great is because you're looking to rebuild.

Again, take my case.  What good does it do for me to trade Tim Duncan for Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, and Lamar Odom?  I can only keep two - and even that would mean I'd need to drop Rashard Lewis or Steve Nash.  If, at the end of the season, I could trade Steve Nash, Rashard Lewis, Drew Gooden in exchange for Kevin Garnett, why would I NOT want to do that?  Even under my scenario - where at the end of the year, Garnett *AND* Duncan would be gone?  A Garnett/Duncan combo could easily be devastating.  I'd take that gamble for a year, and rebuild afterward...simply because I have confidence that I'd field a reasonably good team even if I have a late draft pick.  But why would YOU make that trade at the end of the year?  You wouldn't.

Elite players for foundations for teams.  It's unavoidable.

In fact, there's only 1 reason for a person to drop an elite-level player earlier than his final year - because that manager has the number one pick, and will use it to lengthen the time he can keep his superstar.  That's the only real abuse that I see.

 
Joe

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Offline ziggy

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Question on keepers
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2005, 07:48:34 PM »
Quote
My votes (in order of what would be the best):

1) Keeping it the way it is (this problem is not as big as people are making it to be.  This is NOT a solution, there are loopholes, and this limits other trades, and causes problems).

2) Completely re-drafting after 3 years (IMO these proposed changes take away from the intention of a keeper league.  The best way to have both worlds, IMO, is not to completely change the meaning of a keeper league but to re-start it every so often and get a fresh start.

3) My proposed variation of the new proposal

4) Joe's proposal.

-----------------------------

If we are going to vote on a change, we need 2 things;
1) to get EVERYONE to vote
2) to decide on what % is needed for change.
Could we get a simple detail of each of the 4 proposals.  Exactly what are the specifics of each.  How many years can anyone be a keeper?  Do you gain years as a keeper if you get traded?  etc.

From that let anybody who wants to promote a specific one let them do, and then we move on a vote, fairly quickly.  
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Offline WayOutWest

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Question on keepers
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2005, 07:54:15 PM »
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Could we get a simple detail of each of the 4 proposals.  Exactly what are the specifics of each.  How many years can anyone be a keeper?  Do you gain years as a keeper if you get traded?  etc.

From that let anybody who wants to promote a specific one let them do, and then we move on a vote, fairly quickly.
My proposal is we keep it simple, just tweek the existing rules to state that a keeper can only be kept for two CONSEQUTIVE offseasons, regardless of who keeps him and regardless of trades.
 
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Offline ziggy

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Question on keepers
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2005, 08:22:30 PM »
Derek,
Could you give me a 2 or 3 line description of our existing rules.  I thought I was happy with our existing rules, but I obviously didn't understand them.  Also could you give me a 2 or 3 line description of what Joe is proposing.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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