Question on keepers

[Lurker]

My understanding is that for next season each manager can keep only one of the same keepers as last year.  Therefore they will have one player for 3 years but the other for only 2...unless of course they redraft that player.

For example Joe kept Duncan and Nash.  This year he can choose only one of those guys and another keeper.  Is this the correct interpretation?

[Joe Vancil]

That wasn't my understanding (although that is my plan).

I would like to get the keeper situation cleared up, though - specifically, in reference to trading keepers.  It seems that that would violate the spirit of the rule.

In other words, lets say that I have Duncan - and I trade him for Garnett.  By trading him to Dabods, do I get Garnett for two years?  I think that's wrong.

What I'd like to see is this rule:

All players can be kept through 2 off-seasons only - regardless of the manager who kept them.  For example, Caleb kept Amare Stoudemire this off-season, and can keep him next off-season, but the following off-season, NO MATTER WHOSE TEAM STOUDEMIRE IS ON, he goes back in the draft.  However, since Caleb DRAFTED Steve Francis this year, he can keep him for the coming off-season, plus the off-season afterward.

The idea here is that you can add a bit of stability to your team by having keepers in staggered years, like Caleb (Stoudemire/Francis) or LTTK (Brand/Wade).  Folks with their keepers in the same year - like Dabods (Garnett/McGrady) or me (Duncan/Nash) - are forced to make the choice of dumping one of them early, or of losing both and COMPLETELY rebuilding after a two year run.

Nothing should prevent us from re-drafting the same player.  Were I to cut Nash loose, and he were to fall to my spot, even though he'd been kept before, that starts the 2-year count.

It seems like this is the most fair way to do this, because it assures that the Duncans and Garnetts go through the draft process instead of getting traded from elite team to elite team so as to prevent the loss of talent.

What does everyone think?
 

[Lurker]

Only additional question I would have in regards to Joe's scenario....if a manager trades for a player who was NOT a keeper can they keep that person for 2 off seasons?  Or do keepers have to be draft picks?

For example I traded for Okafor.  Could I then keep him for 2 more off seasons even though I did not draft him?

 

[Joe Vancil]

In my scenario, since Okafor went through the draft, he's eligible to be kept through 2 off-seasons - no matter who drafted him or who kept him.

However, let's say you traded for Carmelo Anthony, who Caleb kept this past off-season.  You're only able to keep him for ONE off-season.

Let's say that I keep Duncan for his second off-season, and you trade for him NEXT YEAR...presumably for that play-off run.  You can't keep him, because he's been kept for two consecutive off-seasons.

This allows a team to gear up for a playoff run by "sacrificing the future" - trading a good player with keeper eligibility for a superstar with no keeper eligibility.  In a case like this, let's say that after you've kept Okafor and I've kept Duncan at the end of this year, you're in the playoff run next year, but need that one superstar to get you over the hump, whereas I'm languishing at the rear of the league.  You could trade Okafor for Duncan, and while you'd have to give Duncan up at the end of the year, you'd have improved your team for the stretch run.  On the other hand, I'd have Okafor for the coming year.

 

[WayOutWest]

Only additional question I would have in regards to Joe's scenario....if a manager trades for a player who was NOT a keeper can they keep that person for 2 off seasons?  Or do keepers have to be draft picks?

For example I traded for Okafor.  Could I then keep him for 2 more off seasons even though I did not draft him?

Joe's interpretation is correct according to the rules:
http://fantasy.phillyarena.net/offseason.htm

I agree with Joe regarding the elite players going back into the draft instead of being traded for other elite players.  Under the current rules players like Dunan, Dirk, KG and T-Mac can just be traded for each other over and over.  Not sure how we can make this fair for everyone because it seems a bit unfair for teams with young studs (Lebron, Bryant, Duncan, KG, Dirk etc...) vs teams with older studs (Webber, Shaq, Nash etc...).

BBF, as far a Okafor is concerned you're safe, he was not anyone's keeper this offseason so he's eligible for you another two offseasons.
 

[ziggy]

It was my understanding that we would have players for 2 seasons and one offseason as a keeper.  After your second season, they must be put back into the draft pool or they must be traded.  If a player is not put into the draft pool after the second season, but is traded, then they MUST go into the draft after the 3rd season.  A 2 time keeper can only be traded once to gain a year of keeper status, then they must reenter the draft.
So for Garnett as an example he was on Bods Ballers last season, and kept as a keeper this season.  He cannot start next season on Bods Ballers.  He must reenter the draft or be traded.  If he is traded to the Polar Bears, then the Polar Bears, can have him for the 2005-06 season only and then he MUST reenter the draft for the 2006-07 season.
If in the case of say Ray Allen.  He was on the Beagles for 2003-04 and kept as a keeper for 2004-05.  If he is not traded IN THE OFFSEASON, then he must reenter the draft, and his keeper status reverts to zero, and whomever drafts him in the 2005-06 draft can keep him for 2006-07, and then trade him in the offseason and he can be a keeper for a new team in 2007-08.
Anybody who was drafted this year, and is kept as a keeper for next year, then their time on the keeper clock starts this year.  That allows some teams the opportunity to have staggered keepers if they want.

[Joe Vancil]

Ziggy,
      That was not the way I understood this AT ALL.

      I understood that a player could be kept TWO OFF-SEASONS.  No discussion of what happens in the event of a trade has ever really been had, to my knowledge.  The last I heard was the point raised that there's nothing keeping me from trading Duncan to DaBods for Garnett after next year, and DaBods keeping Duncan another two years, and me keeping Garnett another two years, with these guys never seeing the light of day in the draft.

     Obviously, we all need to work this out before the trade deadline, because the end result may affect some of us.
 

[Derek Bodner]

You can declare a keeper twice.  So in essence use him for 3 seasons.  So in otherwords, they can be declared one more time (this is my 2nd season with Garnett, so I can declare him this coming offseason and that's it).

As for trades, this is something we'll have to discuss.  It's tough to ask someone to trade their top chip and get NOTHING back in years to come.

[Derek Bodner]

Obviously, we all need to work this out before the trade deadline, because the end result may affect some of us.

This trade deadline's not the date to worry about, next deadline is.

[Lurker]

You can declare a keeper twice.  So in essence use him for 3 seasons.  So in otherwords, they can be declared one more time (this is my 2nd season with Garnett, so I can declare him this coming offseason and that's it).

As for trades, this is something we'll have to discuss.  It's tough to ask someone to trade their top chip and get NOTHING back in years to come.

Better to get something back in return than losing the player without anything in return.

However I have to agree that the two teams trading the same two superstars back & forth for several years is not good for the league.  Maybe we need a rule that if a keeper is traded during the season that the manager cannot reacquire that player for a period of 3-5 years.

[Joe Vancil]

I dislike that idea, Lurker.  Why should I not be able to re-acquire a player if I really want that player?  Why make LTTK give up his Kings?  That's part of the draw - getting players we like.  What if Ziggy gets the first pick, and sees Nowtizki out there?  Why shouldn't he be allowed to draft him - especially if he thinks Nowitzki is the best player?

And, Dabods, no, it's THIS trade deadline that is important.  Right now, there are players (like Dwyane Wade) who make good upcoming keepers and will be eligible for two years.  Not saying this is going to happen, but let's say you wanted to offer Tracy McGrady for Dwyane Wade.  What's the impact to the guy who currently has Wade?  Shouldn't he know before deciding that trade?

Or, take me.  I've got Nash, and it's reasonably obvious that I'd prefer to have Duncan as my 2-year holdover.  That means Rashard Lewis would be my other keeper, and I've got him for 2 years, meaning:

this year:  Duncan, Nash
next year:  Duncan, Lewis
year after:  Lewis, somebody else

But I'm in a title fight, and need to upgrade rebounding and shot-blocking.  Jihad offers me Shaq for Lewis.  I've got Gooden, Finley, Richardson, and Abdur-Rahim at the 3 - and Shaq might make me a lock for the championship.  Am I going to get to keep Shaq for two years?  (Under my proposal, the answer would be, "No.")  Shouldn't I have some idea of what the impact will be before the trade deadline makes it impossible for me to make a move?

Randy's another good case.  He's probably not considering keeping one of his current keepers:  Harrington.  So he may be looking to deal for a player who'll be eligible for two years for him - someone like a Michael Redd or a Steve Francis.  But how can he decide which is better for him - Francis or Nash - unless he knows what the impact will be to him?  If he gets to keep Francis for two years, but Nash for only one, that might impact his decision.  And it definitely drops the value of Nash in trade talks NEXT YEAR - because he'd be ineligible as a keeper - thereby dropping his trade value to next to nothing.  Think anyone would give me - for example - Okafor for Nash NEXT year?  No way.  But *THIS* year they MIGHT.




 

[ziggy]

Ok I obviously misunderstood what the keeper rules were going to be.  Wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood something.

In any case, I think we need to remember why we wanted to put some restrictions on keepers in the first place.  We did so because those people who got the right draft position in the first draft got the first option on players like Garnett and Duncan.  So be it, that that is the luck of the draw, but at some point setting a rule that forces everybody to give up that keeper through a trade or allowing that player to be drafted again assures that we all have some what of a shot at certain players, and that the nature of the league will change over time.

I am OK with the idea of both keepers being 2 year keepers, or one being a two year keeper and one being a three year keeper.  If a keeper gets traded, then they become one year keepers, or in other words youhave to trade them again or release them back into the draft.  
I believe we want to avoid a situation where Derek and Joe swap Duncan and Garnett every other year.  That means there has to be some restrictions on trades of keepers.  I am not saying we have to force Duncan and Garnett back into the draft.  I am also not saying that making forcing them back into the draft is a bad thing either.  If we get to a point where we keep our 3rd and 4th round picks, and the first and second round players get drafted, I don't see that as a bad thing.  I agree with W.O.W. in that we don't want certain players to be swapped back and forth amongst 2 different teams.  Lots of ways to do that though.

I do believe that we should reward players who have improved their keepers situation through the draft.  Dwayne Wade is a good example.  If you have 1 holdover keeper, and decide to make Wade the second keeper, then you should be able to keep Wade for as long as you could Garnett or Duncan if you got them in the draft.

I also like the idea of setting up the offseason for some big time trades of keepers, and also make the in-season trade deadline a situation where trades happen, to set yourself up to make other offseason keeper trades.  If we have too long a period of holding keepers then these trades are less likely to happen.

So in short, I am pretty flexible on all the particulars.  I thought the way the draft lottery went was great, so I am sure we can come up with a great set of rules.  I just think we need to have a mechanism that assures the "untouchables" become touchable, and that if someone has a bad draft or makes some bad moves that they don't pay for it for 3 or 4 years.

[Lurker]

Joe, no my rule is to prevent KG & Duncan being traded back and forth every two years.  So it would only apply if the interpretation is such that players do not become free agents automatically after two offseasons (as in your proposal).  

My proposal was in response to Derek's statement (thus I quoted him) regarding losing a player without compensation.  Under that scenario you & him could just trade KG & Duncan after every three years until they retire or lose effectiveness.  IMO that type of scenario needs to be addressed.

[WayOutWest]

Joe, no my rule is to prevent KG & Duncan being traded back and forth every two years.  So it would only apply if the interpretation is such that players do not become free agents automatically after two offseasons (as in your proposal).  

My proposal was in response to Derek's statement (thus I quoted him) regarding losing a player without compensation.  Under that scenario you & him could just trade KG & Duncan after every three years until they retire or lose effectiveness.  IMO that type of scenario needs to be addressed.

I think we all need to put on our thinking caps.

[Lurker]

One possible solution...that a traded keeper can gain 1 additional year of eligibilty before becomeing a free agent.  Thus if Joe trades Nash before the deadline Nash will still have 2 off seasons of eligibilty left before becoming a free agent.  So in essence Nash would become a keeper for 3 seasons...gives the acquirer some incentive to make the trade.  However this additional year can only be used once.

Another example:  I traded Odom (one of my keepers) to Randy.  Under the two off season only rule Randy could keep Odom for one more off season.  Under this proposal Randy could keep him for two more off seasons.  If Randy was to keep him and trade him next year then who ever gets Odom would only have 1 off season left before he is forced into free agency.  In other words since a keeper was traded he has 3 off seasons before becoming a free agent.