Author Topic: Question on keepers  (Read 18990 times)

carrotz_60

  • Guest
Question on keepers
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2005, 02:42:10 PM »
Hi guys,

My vote is to keep things the way they are. Although any rules changes the majority agrees to, i'm ok with that as well.  Honestly, i just enjoy using players i like and seeing how well they do. I try to win (as you've seen) but i know that (at least for me) most of this stuff is lucky guessing. I got real lucky this season. I actually did feel kinda bad about picking up Gadzuric and having him have an unbelievable night, but it was just a lucky guess. Brian Skinner, who had been very successful for me after losing Brad Miller to the ol' broken leg, had exactly one point and two rebounds that night instead of the (nearly) double doubles he'd been putting up before. I had a night where Peja had 14 points and four threes in the first quarter of a game and pulled his groin and was done for the rest of the regular season. I tried to compensate for him however i could. I do like the idea of the season ending earlier so the top players sitting out games doesn't mess with the outcome. Although it does give an added element to the strategy of winning, i guess.

Anyway...i just want to have fun and not get too upset or angry or whatever about this. I did get some real enjoyment out of Magette being dropped, though! It's a horrible feeling seeing one of your top guys...gone!  

Offline Wolverine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
    • AOL Instant Messenger - CardsMizzou
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2005, 06:52:16 PM »
I agree with Ted.  I really don't like the whole limit on keepers.  However, I assume that won't be changing, so in that case I vote for Joe's proposal.
This message was brought to you by Diet Dr. Pepper.  It tastes more like regular Dr. Pepper.

Cards' 2010 regular season record: 50-41

Offline Skandery

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1710
    • MSN Messenger - skandery27@hotmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2005, 12:17:24 AM »
I wonder if people are still looking at this thread.  I'm either for Randy and Ted's plan of just starting fresh every year.  But if people want to have keepers, the plan outlined by Joe and Ziggy sounds the best.  Two keepers for two off-seasons.  Now I for one wouldn't discard Odom and McGrady simply because I thought everyone was clear at the beginning of the year the ramifications of trading for a kept player.  But I can yield on the last point.  

The other issues that need to be talked about is 1) shortening the season so that everyone's best players aren't being benched in the fantasy playoffs.  Much like Football does it, to wear the Fantasy Superbowl is the second to last week of the regular season.  And 2) expanding the roster so that the add/drop issue isn't as big of a deal.  I also wouldn't be averse to limiting add/drops, but I really think a bigger roster is a necessity to make adding and dropping not so mindless and to make the draft a more important part of the fantasy year.

           
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Derek Bodner

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3040
    • AOL Instant Messenger - dbodner22
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - dabodz
    • View Profile
    • http://www.phillyarena.com
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2005, 08:17:41 AM »
Quote
thought everyone was clear at the beginning of the year the ramifications of trading for a kept player. But I can yield on the last point.

At the beginning of the year the rule on keepers was simply that you couldn't keep the same keeper more than 2 offseasons in a row.  It had nothing in the rules for newly acquired keepers.

As for shortening the season, unfortunately I don't think that's an option under yahoo.  I look more indepth though.

Offline SPURSX3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2839
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2005, 08:09:18 PM »
Dbodz, there is WAY too much clutter in this thread...

What do we do if we do not chose to keep any of our players?  I take it i can't use the same keepers again this season.

My team was soo hobbled with injury this season that I just gave up on trying to manage them and that was in ALL my leagues.  usually I play through it all but got very frustrated this seaosn by it all.  So, if we cannot use the same keepers, Can I select new players in the first two round of the draft?  or would a sign and trade of some sorts need to be worked out prior to the draft itself?  Just curious because of our draft system this previous year.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 08:10:46 PM by SPURSX3 »
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline Derek Bodner

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3040
    • AOL Instant Messenger - dbodner22
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - dabodz
    • View Profile
    • http://www.phillyarena.com
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2005, 09:49:14 PM »
there aren't any keepers whose eligibility has expired.  So yes, you can use the same 2 keepers.

And you have to select 2 players from your team.

Offline WayOutWest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7411
    • View Profile
Question on keepers
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2005, 08:10:29 AM »
Quote
And you have to select 2 players from your team.
That's just BS Bods!  I'm taking TD from Joe V and Lebron from Ted.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Joe Vancil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2208
    • ICQ Messenger - 236778608
    • MSN Messenger - joev5638@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - GenghisThePBear
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - joev5638
    • View Profile
    • http://www.joev.com
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2005, 11:55:54 AM »
Folks,

We really need to get this settled if we're going to do another fantasy season, and I really do want to make another go of this.  I enjoy this a lot, and it's a lot of fun with Skander and Caleb throughout the season.  I want to make this league work.

My vote is for the idea I proposed that the 2-season keeper rule applies to ANY player who did not go through the draft.  Going through the draft resets the keeper status.

Finally, for this off-season AND ONLY THIS OFF-SEASON, a grandfather clause is in effect for players who were traded during the past season.  In other words, if you acquired a player who was kept by another owner last year, your acquisition of that player reset his keeper status.

Example #1:  My keepers last year were Duncan and Nash.  I keep each again this year.  Next year, no matter who has them at the end of the season, Duncan and Nash *MUST* go through the draft.  In acquiring them, you know you've only got them for the remainder of the year.

Example #2:  Last year,  DaBods kept Jason Kidd and Kevin Garnett, whereas Skander kept Tracy McGrady and Andrei Kirilenko.  Skander traded McGrady to Dabods.  In this season, and ONLY in this season, McGrady's keeper status was reset.  That means Skander can keep Kirilenko for only this off-season, and DaBods can keep Garnett and/or Kidd for this off-season, and furthermore, these three players, IF KEPT, *MUST* go through the draft next season.  McGrady, however, had his keeper status reset because he was traded during the past season...before these rules were set....and, as a result, DaBods can keep him this off-season and NEXT off-season.  After that, he must go through the draft.

Example #3:  Caleb kept Amare Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony last year.  (Well...we can leave Carmelo Anthony out of this discussion.)  Caleb acquires the #1 pick in the draft.  He can keep Steve Francis, who he drafted, and Dwight Howard, who he drafted, and drop Amare Stoudemire.  With the first pick of the draft, Caleb re-acquires Stoudemire.  As a result, Stoudemire's keeper status has been washed;  Caleb (or anyone else) can keep Stoudemire for next off-season and the following one, after which he must go into the draft, while Dwight Howard and Steve Francis may only be kept for the next off-season before going through the draft.  GOING THROUGH THE DRAFT RESETS KEEPER STATUS.

Guys, I'd really like to get this worked out before we turn into Atlanta Spirit, LLC.

 
Joe

-----------
Support your right to keep and arm bears!
Club (baby) seals, not sandwiches!

Offline Skandery

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1710
    • MSN Messenger - skandery27@hotmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2005, 12:48:06 PM »
I guess I posted but never really voted back in April:

1) Two keepers for two off-seasons maximum NO MATTER WHOSE ROSTER they're on (exception on T-Mac and Odom), mostly because this is how we all went into this thing.  It's easy to keep track of and it makes sense and keeps the cream of the crop (I just don't see the top 5 players changin' year to year) from switching teams every couple of years.  

2) I am in FAVOR of limiting FA pickups, even if the roster size doesn't change.  That being said, I would LIKE the roster sizes to be changed.  Preferably to 16 with no IL, its very close to the NBA that way which has 14 active roster spots and 2 IL spots......methinks.

There are my votes


P.S. Dabods, have you found out whether Yahoo will allow you to shorten the season?  Because I thought they did with Fantasy Football.  

P.S.S. Ziggy you better be back with us, you'll miss us, you'll see....    

 
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Joe Vancil

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2208
    • ICQ Messenger - 236778608
    • MSN Messenger - joev5638@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - GenghisThePBear
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - joev5638
    • View Profile
    • http://www.joev.com
    • Email
Question on keepers
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2005, 01:21:00 PM »
Actually, I want to go back and address the point made by DaBods against my proposal.

The question deals with the value of someone like a Duncan or a Garnett, and how easily they're traded, along with the "loophole" which Derek refers to of trading a Duncan with no more eligibility left for a player who has two seasons of eligibility left.

The first is that you've mentioned how many times some of the top level players in our league have changed teams:  McGrady was traded, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.  My response is that you should examine the results of the teams that traded these guys away versus the results of the teams who acquired them.  In getting McGrady, you finished 2nd...Skander finished 10th (or maybe 9th...I forget).  Ziggy acquired Nowitzki and stays near the top...who gave up Nowtizki - BBF.  His teams have been middle of the pack.  I've kept Duncan, and acquired Nash.  With Duncan and Nash, I've finished 1st, 3rd in the season I didn't have them both all year long, and 1st.  Stud players make for stud records.  In other words, if you want to be bad...trade away a stud like a Duncan or a Garnett.  Doesn't matter what you get in return in this league...no one has IMPROVED themselves by trading away their studs.

Now comes the point where I address the idea of trading a Duncan with no eligibility left for two lesser players:  say an Iverson and an Okafor, each with one season left (assuming all are kept).

Under your system, I would lose Iverson and Okafor at the end of the year.  So why trade Duncan?  And, in fact, assuming I'm in the running for this year, I'm not GOING to trade Duncan, because the objective is to win, and I'm not going to get closer to winning by trading my stud away.  Instead, what I'll do is KEEP my stud and play to win, and at the end of the year, I'm facing a long rebuilding process.

However, let's say I'm not in competition at all.  NOW, I'm going to want to get a jump-start on building for the future.  In this case, I'll trade Duncan, trying to upgrade my keepers for next year's draft.  And no other player in a rebuilding process is going to want Duncan - only the elite level teams with a chance at the championship would be willing to get him as a missing piece - guys who can sacrifice depth for studliness.

Finally, the idea that there are only 2 keepers puts an additional limit on me.  If I've got Duncan and Nash, trade them both away for four players with great eligibility toward the end of the season when folks can see where they stand in the stretch run, I'm not going to get to keep all four of those players!  At most, I can only keep 2.

Right now, as it stands, I wouldn't trade Duncan for, say, Wade and Okafor and Nash for Kirilenko and Redd.  I have a better chance of winning with Duncan and Nash.  To acquire these guys, people are going to have to make the deal incredibly sweet.  At the start of the year, no one is going to offer me Wade and Okafor for Duncan, because they're going to want to see where they stand before trying to acquire a this-year-only guy.  They'll be looking at acquiring Duncan near the trade deadline, when they know where they stand and how easy/difficult it will be for them to win.  And if I'm doing poorly, I'm going to try to deal Duncan as early as I can.  It's supply and demand at work.

There's no way I trade Duncan for two players that have no eligibility.  None whatsoever...well, unless it's like for Garnett and another similar stud.  Yet that's exactly the choice you're leaving me with.  If my team does poorly (although I maintain it won't, simply because I have a player like Duncan),  I'm looking at dealing Duncan ONLY if I'm getting a future out of it.

Finally, consider the initial draft of the league.  I had THREE players on my wish list, and as the #3 pick, I knew I'd get one of them.  Those three players were - in order, 1) Dirk Nowitzki, 2) Tim Duncan, and 3) Kevin Garnett.  In that first season, Duncan and Nowitzki's teams battled for the championship, and the finish of the 3 teams involved were 3, 4, and 7 - you being the odd case because of Kidd's injuries.  Also, if you look at the two people at the top of the league, you're looking at Skander and Drom - who made some incredibly risky picks at the top of the draft that panned out BIG.  If you look at last season, where did Duncan/Garnett/Nowitzki's teams finish?  1-2-3 in the regular season.  Now while I'd like to claim sheer brilliance in my picks, the truth is that it's the difference of having Duncan versus not having him.

Caleb isn't going to turn around and give me Stoudemire/Howard for Duncan unless he's trying to build THIS YEAR'S championship team, and if he offered it, I'm not going to take it...UNLESS I'm in rebuilding mode.  It all boils down to just how badly you want to win - as all good competition should.

Does this adequately explain why I don't like the idea of keeper eligibility maintaining with the drafting manager?  Not to mention, when multi-player deals get involved, the situation becomes EXTREMELY complicated.  Say Caleb sent a keeper and a non-keeper for two keepers, and then traded on of those guys for two more non-keepers.  Given that there are people with 0/1/2 seasons of eligibility left, how will it be decided?  The system is unduly complicated.

Instead, owners will de-value the stud - Duncan - because he's a this-year-only guy.  He's no longer WORTH two near-superstud keepers with two years of eligibility left.  He becomes less tradeable, and therefore, more likely to go through the draft.

Because we've got fewer "stud" keepers in this upcoming year's draft than we will in next, shuffling to build a franchise is a bit tougher right now.  But that will change as time goes on.  Last year, Wade wasn't a super-stud...this year, he is.  Folks like Al Harrington and Carmelo Anthony were proven to be mistakes.  But *EVERY* year - except those that they're forced to go through the draft, folks like Shaq, Duncan, Nowitzki, and Garnett will be keepers.  And the idea is that we *DO* want to force them to go through the draft from time-to-time.

Anyway, that's my considered response.  
 
Joe

-----------
Support your right to keep and arm bears!
Club (baby) seals, not sandwiches!