Author Topic: Is Peja a top 10 player?  (Read 7544 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2004, 05:13:43 PM »
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Uhmmmm....okay.   :rolleyes:  
 
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Offline spursfan101

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2004, 05:17:30 PM »
Kobe straight up for Peja?  


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Paul

Offline Joe Vancil

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2004, 05:23:01 PM »
The answer to that question is the opposite of "Is Chris Webber in the game, or not?"

Stojakovic's value, more than any other player at a high level, goes down when his "co-star" comes into the game.  Why?  Because Stojakovic is a better-than-expected rebounder and a better-than-expected scorer when Webber isn't there.  When Webber plays, though, Stojakovic is content to play second-fiddle to Webber, and his number slide because of it.

Stojakovic, this year, is top 10.  While Yao Ming has potential, this year, he shouldn't be on that list.  McGrady and Iverson are arguable.  Baron Davis is missing from the list, and you could argue him as well.  But Stojakovic - from what he's shown so far this year - belongs.

But the reason Stojakovic is top 10 is because Webber has been out.  Now, Webber's back.  I expect Stojakovic's numbers to fall off appropriately - just like every time before.

 
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Offline WayOutWest

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2004, 05:24:50 PM »
JoMal,

Are you honestly saying you would take Peja over the top 10 players I listed?  You'd take Peja over Webber?

Stats are fine to back up your point and if you go by FG%, FT%, 3PT%
FG made, FT made, 3PT made, steals, assists, blocks, TO's and rebounds:

By averages you'd also have AK-47, B. Davis and Ray Allen in the top 10, you think anybody with any b-ball knowledge is going to build around those guys over the top 10 I listed?  

By totals you'd also have AK-47, B. Wallace, B. Davis and Donyell Marshall in the top 10, you think anybody with any b-ball knowledge is going to build around those guys over the top 10 I listed?

Those guys are somehow better players as well?

Mmmmm......okay...  :rolleyes:

EDIT: there is now way for a formula to take into accout "all" factors as you claim.  They don't even keep stats on things like altered shots, drawing offensive fouls etc... it's impossible to gauge things like that in a formula if they're not even part of the equations but in real life they do affect the game.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 05:28:06 PM by WayOutWest »
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Offline SPURSX3

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2004, 05:34:36 PM »
JoMal needs to bag some of that sacmo grass and sell it.  Peja over "teeemy"??  no way.  I wouldnt even take 5 Peja's over "Teemy."  The sorry arse three point losing mini-divac can shoot the three no doubt.  but he is NOT a top ten player.  would you start a franchise with him? NO.  would he be one of your top ten players to start a team with??  NO.  

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Offline Randy

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2004, 06:23:16 PM »
I think these formulas DO show you some things but obviously not the whole picture.  Anyone here believe that Posey is a top 10 player?  Anyone believe he is one of the best SF's in the league?  Posey isn't where I would start at SF but if I'm looking for a solid role player, he would be a good one.  Posey is a perfect example of why the formulas don't show the whole picture.  It tells you what a player does on a team but what it leaves out is why it happens.  

Here is the bottom line:  when you build a team around a player, then he had BETTER be one of the best players in the league.

Here are players that I would build a team around:
1.  TD
2.  KG
3.  Shaq
4.  Dirk
5.  Kobe
6.  Yao (future team, not present)
7.  Kidd
8.  Probably J. O'Neal (big men are hard to find)

From there, I would begin to want TWO players:
CWebb
Peja
Brand
TMac
Pierce
Allen
Davis
Marion
Ben Wallace
Gasol
VC
Artest
LeBron James
and there are others

Here are a few players that I WOULDN'T want to build a team around:
AI
Francis
Marbury
Sheed
Antoine Walker
Jury is still out on Carmello Anthony
 

Offline JoMal

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2004, 06:26:21 PM »
WOW- Would I take Peja over ALL the players you list? No, but certainly over Iverson, T-Mac, Jermaine O'Neal, and Nowitzki, and straight up for Yao and Kobe.

Though this type of transaction is not really what is likely to happen. Even talented guards like Kidd, Iverson, and T-Mac are not as valuable as a good front line player

As for considering his value over Webber's? The Kings have the best record in the NBA as of today, 51 games into the season, without Webber. I doubt they would be in the same spot if Peja had missed all those games instead. The Kings' depth is at PF/center, not small forward.

As for Peja being one dimensional (???).

Okay, let's assume he does not move affectively without the ball (even though he does), nor play average defense, which he does not (he is better then average, and gets 1.4 steals per game as well), nor rebound (6.2 per game from the small forward slot isn't bad, though), nor pass the ball effectively (his 2.2 assists per game are probably 2 more then expected - he is the receiver of the passes in the Kings' offense, not the distributor), nor play in the paint (the Princeton offense, unfortunately, gives plenty of opportunities for layups for Peja, but we are ignoring this as well), nor his League-leading FT percentage (bonus points - can't count on them and besides, how could he even get to the line almost six times a game being a one-dimensional three point shooting player? Must be a typo).

That leaves his one dimension to contend with. Parking him at the three point line and allowing him to shoot threes only. He would still average twenty points a game.

WOW, that shooting stroke of Peja's - it's no fluke. It doesn't come out of a Crackerjack box. It doesn't come with an asterisk. His shots don't fall because Peja is wide open every time he shoots from behind the arc. They do not scare other teams into cringing every time he has a three point shot because people in the first row are in danger of getting clunked on the head with air balls. They do not make opposing coaches call time outs because their team's defend this shot so effectively, coaches just want to call the team together to congradulate them on a job well done. They do not put their absolutely best defender on Peja because the season is so long, the coaches see Sacramento and Stojakovich as a convenient night off for them to rest up.

Bowen keeps Peja ten points below his average? Try four (21 per game this year), and since San Antonio plays a slowdown style of basketball, that's about right.  

The fact that you are even arguing the issue of whether or not Peja is a top ten player this season tells us that SOMEONE sure as hell has been mentioning him in that stratosphere. People associated with basketball even mention him as an MVP candidate right after Garnett's name is mentioned. Just because he has led the Kings to the best record in basketball while Webber has been sidelined?

He must be doing something right for all this consideration to come his way. Or people just put too much importance on insignificant skills like shooting accuracy instead of more flashy moves, like palming the ball - and getting away with it, making room down on the block by elbowing opponents out of the way - and getting away with it, or flying dunks to the hoop after taking four or five illegal steps - and getting away with it.

Developing skills that require hours and hours of practice shooting in the gym just aren't as sexy, I guess.
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Offline ziggy

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2004, 08:38:14 PM »
Lots and lots of posts here so I doubt anyone really cares what I think, but I am going to say it anyway.

Peja is a top 10 player no question.  If the Kings had to make a choice as to which player the had to keep it would be Peja.  No question he is better than Webber.  He is very comparable to Kobe, McGrady, Dirk, Brand, and Jermaine.  He isn't as good Garnett, or Duncan, and he isn't the same kind of player as Shaq.  He is  better than Pierce, Carter, Allen, Walker, Kidd, Marbury, AI, Marion.  Thats right he is a better player than Kidd.  His strengths are just as great, and his weaknesses are nowhere near as severe.

WOW is just trolling for an argument.  He knows Peja is top 10.
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Offline JoMal

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2004, 11:28:57 AM »
Ziggy I know WOW likes to stir things up. I really don't mind, in fact it is topics just like this one that we all should thank dabods for keeping the board. This year, as Joey V. plainly stated, Peja has moved into the top ten in the League. Because of various "issues" pending and missed games, players like Shaq and Kobe probably should be considered out of the top ten. For this year.  
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Randy

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2004, 01:52:38 PM »
Quote
Ziggy I know WOW likes to stir things up. I really don't mind, in fact it is topics just like this one that we all should thank dabods for keeping the board. This year, as Joey V. plainly stated, Peja has moved into the top ten in the League. Because of various "issues" pending and missed games, players like Shaq and Kobe probably should be considered out of the top ten. For this year.
I agree, JoMal.  As I stated before, I do believe Peja is a top 10 player this year -- and I won't disagree that Shaq and Kobe haven't had great years -- however, I'm not sure that I would build a team around Peja.  The fact is that if Shaq and Kobe are shooting badly on a given night -- they will help their team in other areas and they will start taking the ball to the hole.  Peja can't do that at this point.  Granted, there are a lot of other players that I wouldn't build a team around but I want a player who can strap their team on his back with more than just shooting.  And, unfortunately, that's what Peja brings to the table -- sure, great shooting, incredible shooting, but there isn't the ability to take it to the rack, draw fouls, etc., if he is shooting poorly.

I would bet you money that SacTown would take Kobe straight up -- but LA would want more than Peja for Kobe -- same for KG, Shaq, TD, Dirk, etc.  And the reasons above are why.

Offline Laker Fan

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2004, 01:55:29 PM »
I tend to think along the lines of Ziggy on some points, comparing him to Kobe is a little farfetched but some good points nevertheless. Peja is no question whatsoever a top 10 player this year, in fact, I’d say there aren’t more than 5-6 players in the league more critical to their teams success than he is:

1.   Shaq
2.   Bryant
3.   Duncan
4.   Garnett
5.   Nowitski
6.   MAYBE Kidd
7.   MAYBE Ben Wallace (I love defensive players)
8.   MAYBE J. O’Neal (big men are hard to find)

That being said, let’s not fool ourselves on his limitations. He is NOT a defensive presence that changes the offense of the opponent. On offense, he is from the 10-15 games I’ve seen this year, still basically a spot-up shooter, and probably the best pure shooter in the NBA at this point, not that that is a bad thing, but he definitely has limitations on offense as well, I’ve seen a lot of trepidation from him when it comes to taking it to the hole (picking up that post coward Webber’s bad habit) and settling for the jumper. Again, not exactly a bad thing but it can stagnate ball movement and scoring opportunities for his teammates. This is puzzling to me because he has decent ball handling skills and could open the floor more by forcing the defense to collapse. As it is, opponents rarely adjust to his game, if he played inside more, they would have no choice, he is very good at shooting over defenders and so maybe that is the reasoning behind his staying outside. The reason he will never be as dangerous as the Kobe’s, McGrady’s, and Carter’s of the world is that they create their own shot, as JoMal said, Peja is the recipient of the pass rather than the other way around, that to me is a limitation in that again, teams rarely adjust to him. The upside here is that the motion offense is absolutely perfect for his style of play, he moves well without the ball and it blows me away that teams continue to give him the looks he gets, although he is more than capable of shooting in perimeter traffic, ala Jeff Hornicek. I don’t believe for a minute he is un-defendable, but he is close and that makes him so deadly.

Would I build a team around him? Probably he would be on a short list of candidates but he isn’t well rounded enough for the kind of team I would want to put together, but I absolutely would put him in the starting lineup of any team in the world, I love shooters and although I wouldn’t want a team full of shooters, he is one you can’t afford to ignore. I’m curious to see how well Sacramento does when the anchor check back in and slows this team to a crawl.
 
Dan

Offline WayOutWest

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Is Peja a top 10 player?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2004, 04:30:02 PM »
I think JoMal has a tendency to listen to the voices in his head instead of reading my posts, so for the most part he's just backing up my points and arguing with one of his voices about points they brought up.

IMO is Peja was 3 inches taller it would be a whole nother discussion.  Peja and Dirk are very similar but Dirks height makes him unique and more valuable.  While some players on my list haven't put in a full year their abilities are without question.  If Shaq was fatter or if Kobe's/T-Mac's injuries kept them from being the players that they are then I would move Peja up cuase he's right on the cusp IMO.  For example, Ray Allen has only been back for very few games yet I wouldn't take Crawford, Mobely, Posey, Christie or Jackson ahead of him because it's obvious he's a better player despite putting up frew totals at this point.

Again, the vicoden (sic?) might be causing ramblings again!
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"