Author Topic: Is this a joke? Spurs file protest  (Read 2367 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« on: May 14, 2004, 02:11:44 PM »
First of all, the Spurs need to STFU!  Just look at the pic:



Second, is this a joke?  Did the Spurs really win a protest vs the Lakers?

©2004 Broadband Sports Network


Protest Challenge Is A Brilliant Move
Dusty Garza
Friday, May 14, 2004


Get this. One of the last (and well remembered) protests successfully submitted by an NBA team was presented by the Spurs in December of 1982 for a problem they had against the Los Angeles Lakers. How wicked is that? The Spurs had lost a 137-132 double-overtime game to the Los Angeles Lakers, but argued that the outcome was tainted by a play occurring with three seconds left in regulation. In that memorable game, the Spurs were ahead, 116-114, with the Lakers' Norm Nixon at the line for the second of two free throws. Instead of releasing the ball, Nixon faked a shot, drawing members of both teams into the lane. After some confusion, a double lane violation was called by the officials and a jump ball was held at center court. Los Angeles controlled the tip and scored the game-tying basket.

San Antonio successfully argued that the correct call should have been to make Nixon shoot the free throw. The league agreed and the final three seconds of the game were replayed-- four months later (when the teams met again). The Spurs won-not only that game, but the previously scheduled one which was played immediately following the protested contest. In what has become one of the oddest NBA trivia facts ever, the San Antonio Spurs go down in history as the NBA team that beat the Lakers twice on the same night.

Now, if the Spurs want to stay alive, they’ll have to beat the Lakers twice- again.

Following what may go down as one of the most incredible finishes in playoff history- one which featured two lead changes with less than a single second remaining- the Spurs filed a protest with the league office. The Spurs believe that the desperation catch and turn shot hit by Derek Fisher of the Los Angeles Lakers should have been disallowed by the officiating crew due to the fact that – among other things- the shot clock was started late by a member (or members) of the officiating crew, therefore providing Fisher additional time to get off his incredible game winning shot.

The Spurs could cite at least two rules from the official NBA Rule Book which, if interpreted correctly, could provide solid footing for another successful and historical protest.

Let’s break this down. Quick human biology lesson:

On average, human reaction time is three-quarters of a second. That means, if we filmed you as someone fired a pistol in the air behind you, we could then observe a filmed replay showing your “delayed” reaction to the loud noise time and again.

If we timed that same observable reaction and tested the theory on a hundred different people of various ages and sexes, we would find that the vast majority of them would react to the shot no sooner than three-quarters of a second later. No one- and I mean no one- would react immediately. Even to something as startling as that.

Now let’s apply what we’ve learned to Thursday night’s game.

In the NBA, all three officials (in this case Dan Crawford, Ron Garretson, and Joe Forte) have a pager-like remote clock-starting device on their belt. Unless one of them was Superman, none of them could not have hit their clock-start buttons sooner than three-quarters of a second after Derrick Fisher first touched the ball. So, by default, any lawyer (or Laker fan) would argue that the officials started the clock as quickly as humanly possible.

The only problem is… It’s against the rules.

If one accepts the “fast as humanly possible” argument, then Fisher was given a minimum of an extra three-quarters of a second to make the basket after he touched the ball. And guess what?
That is precisely what the video replays (see one here) show! Fisher caught the ball, turned, and was in mid-air before the clock even started.

So in effect, the Lakers were unofficially given eight-tenths of a second total (not four-tenths) to get their shot into the basket. And so, Derek Fisher was able to grab victory from the hands of the Spurs and exchange it for stunning defeat- all within.. Well.. More time than the official clock showed.

But alas, the NBA (a place insiders lovingly call Nothin’ But Attorneys) has a “back-up” rule to deal with exactly this type of scenario.

It states:

Regardless of when the horn or red light operates to signify the end of a period, the officials will ultimately make the final decision on whether to allow or disallow a successful field goal.

Oh yes.. And just to make sure everything works out, there is another rule :

No less than three-tenths of a second must expire on the game clock when a player secures possession of an inbounds pass and then attempts a field goal.

That didn't happen. Did it?

Ultimately, what this means is that it was up to the discretion of the officials to allow the basket. Given all the science and evidence we’ve discussed even as they reviewed and watched the replays, they still decided that the play was “fair” and that the basket counted.

Ouch!

Immediately after the game, Spurs officials went to work compiling data and filing official forms that needed to get to the league office before midnight.

So convinced are they that the league’s own rules were violated by not over-turning Fisher’s shot, that they paid the mandatory $10,000 fee that must accompany any official protest. If a team’s protest prevails, the team’s money will be refunded. If it doesn’t the league keeps it for their coffers.

Now, lets’ be realistic here.

If this protest were being reviewed in a court of law, the Spurs might actually have a descent shot of winning one or perhaps even two arguments related to disallowing “the shot”- therefore also winning the game. But this is the NBA and every one that cheers against the Lakers knows their hard-court is often not as “fair.”

So in my opinion, the NBA will point to the very rule I presented above, underline the part that reads: “the officials will ultimately make the final decision” (which they did- even if it was the wrong decision) and send the protest paperwork back- without the $10,000 check.


Given all of that, one can argue that no matter what, the move by San Antonio's Gregg Popovich and R.C. Buford to file the protest was simply brilliant.

Why?

The Spurs have nothing to lose. (Except $10,000 of course.)

The Spurs will get a much more *ahem* professional officiating crew than they’ve had waiting for them at Staples Center during their most recent trips there.

I have this sneaking suspicion that the actions of the officiating crew assigned to Game 6 (regardless of their professionalism) will be watched under a micro-scope. NBA fans everywhere whose favorite teams have suffered at the hands of the “Laker Rules” will tune-in en force to see if the NBA really does have a “hidden agenda” against small market teams.


Feel better yet?

Sigh.

It all reminds me of the words first spoken by Mahatma Ghandi :

"Heroes are made in the hour of defeat."
 
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Guest_Randy

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2004, 02:45:22 PM »
The Spurs weren't claiming that the ball didn't leave DFish's hands in time but rather that the shot clock wasn't started quickly enough (even though there were TWO officials who started them -- and one of them was on the Spurs payroll  :rofl: !!

I'm REALLY surprised that they went through with that -- it makes their team look like a bunch of sore losers, IMO and there's NO way that the NBA is going to overturn that decision anyway -- America watched it about 50 million times and everyone had already made their own decision -- that the Lakers won the game.  

I would think the Spurs time would be better used by helping their players get that stunned look off their faces!  I think it looked a lot like this:   :blink:  or this  :eek2:  or this  :couch:  or this  :huh:.

Of course, after the Lakers win the series we won't really expect this  :hail: from the Spurs and their fans -- simply their earned respect, right?   :unsure:

Okay, that's as much chest thumping as you will hear from me -- except for my replies to our village idiot -- I hope the Spurs faithful will realize that those replies do not apply to them!

Offline Laker Fan

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2004, 03:04:21 PM »
Yes but think about this, Randy, you said before every board needs a village idiot, even a completely irrelevent one, and since no one here knows where Lee is well...
Dan

Offline Lurker

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2004, 03:26:16 PM »
Quote
The Spurs weren't claiming that the ball didn't leave DFish's hands in time but rather that the shot clock wasn't started quickly enough (even though there were TWO officials who started them -- and one of them was on the Spurs payroll  :rofl: !!

 
Let's start with the falsehood in this statement.  There are 4 people that can start the clock....any of the 3 officials plus the timekeeper.  And all 4 of these people are employed by & paid by the NBA.  NONE are employees of the Spurs.


And yes the filing of the protest is a legitimate move.  If the shoe was on the other foot would all you Laker fans be in such disbelief when the Lakers filed a protest.  Or would you all be howling about how your team got ripped off.  No true Spurs fan has come on the board and argued that the refs or timekeepers cost them the game.  In fact it has been the exact opposite.  Cut the holier than thou  :bs: .  
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Outsider

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 03:33:29 PM »
Spurs players don't need to be referred to be as bunch of losers... They tried their best to come back into the game against a team boasting of four future hall of famers and a coach who is going to break all time record..

The stunned look - natural of course..

What about the look of Lakers players when TD's shot went in??? Probably they had confident or arrogant look that they could score a basket in 0.4 sec.

Offline Reality

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 03:39:38 PM »
Quote
Let's start with the falsehood in this statement.  There are 4 people that can start the clock....any of the 3 officials plus the timekeeper.  And all 4 of these people are employed by & paid by the NBA.  NONE are employees of the Spurs.


And yes the filing of the protest is a legitimate move.  If the shoe was on the other foot would all you Laker fans be in such disbelief when the Lakers filed a protest.  Or would you all be howling about how your team got ripped off.  No true Spurs fan has come on the board and argued that the refs or timekeepers cost them the game.  In fact it has been the exact opposite.  Cut the holier than thou  :bs: . [/quote]
 Got it Pharasee?

Conga Randy also?

Guest_Randy

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 03:56:00 PM »
Quote
Quote
The Spurs weren't claiming that the ball didn't leave DFish's hands in time but rather that the shot clock wasn't started quickly enough (even though there were TWO officials who started them -- and one of them was on the Spurs payroll  :rofl: !!

 
Let's start with the falsehood in this statement.  There are 4 people that can start the clock....any of the 3 officials plus the timekeeper.  And all 4 of these people are employed by & paid by the NBA.  NONE are employees of the Spurs.


And yes the filing of the protest is a legitimate move.  If the shoe was on the other foot would all you Laker fans be in such disbelief when the Lakers filed a protest.  Or would you all be howling about how your team got ripped off.  No true Spurs fan has come on the board and argued that the refs or timekeepers cost them the game.  In fact it has been the exact opposite.  Cut the holier than thou  :bs: .
The league doesn't bring in a timekeeper -- they may be paid by the NBA but they are from the local area, not the same thing as bringing in someone from outside the area.

As for the protest being legit?  Please!  All you had to do was roll the tape for yourself and you can figure it out yourself -- just like the rest of the world.  And you are quite wrong, I would be upset if the Lakers did it just as much as I would if the Spurs did it.  Here's why:  1) I'd want the Lakers players to be thinking about how they need to get themselves together to beat the Spurs in the next game -- ESP. since it's on the opponents floor -- I don't believe whining and protesting the game helps that cause -- it gives the players something else to focus on; 2) you just can't do it without coming across as sore losers.

When TD knocked down that lucky shot, I really DID think the game was over -- and I WAS stunned because it was such a tough shot -- TD didn't get a good look or a good shot off but yet it went in.  If the Spurs had won, you take your hat off and you state the obvious -- they were the better team.  The Lakers made a lucky tough shot as well -- and they won the game -- not because of the refs, not because of the timekeepers, not because of anything else except that they won.  By protesting the game, you are saying that the Lakers didn't win -- that the scorekeepers and officials are to blame for the loss.  How could you call that anything BUT being poor losers?  The Spurs had their chances -- just like the Lakers did in games #1 and #2 -- they didn't win -- you don't blame that on anyone else than the Lakers and you congratulate the Spurs for being the winners and the better team on those nights.  When you protest, you are trying to deny that -- and no matter WHAT team you are on -- it's lame.

There have been legitimate protests in the league -- we've all seen them because it's been played on Sportscenter 5 million times -- this was played 50 million times and the ONLY people who think it's a legit protest are Spurs fans!  I wonder why?

Guest_Randy

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 03:56:17 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Lurker,May 14 2004, 08:26 PM
Let's start with the falsehood in this statement.  There are 4 people that can start the clock....any of the 3 officials plus the timekeeper.  And all 4 of these people are employed by & paid by the NBA.  NONE are employees of the Spurs.


And yes the filing of the protest is a legitimate move.  If the shoe was on the other foot would all you Laker fans be in such disbelief when the Lakers filed a protest.  Or would you all be howling about how your team got ripped off.  No true Spurs fan has come on the board and argued that the refs or timekeepers cost them the game.  In fact it has been the exact opposite.  Cut the holier than thou  :bs: .
Got it Pharasee?

Conga Randy also? [/quote]
 Idiot!

Offline JoMal

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 04:04:45 PM »
Quote
I got the same problem as Halle Barry. Everyone wants my butt. - Shaquille O'Neal


Just to throw gasoline on this fire, I predict that the Spurs are going to win the next two games :fire:  :hotbounce:
« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 04:05:31 PM by JoMal »
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Laker Fan

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 04:35:17 PM »
I for one BBF have been in here giving the Spurs major props for the game last night, they came so close to pulling it out my heart stopped, total credit to them for not folding down the stretch when the Lakers had basically dominated the whole game.

But the protest coming from the Spurs front office is just sour grapes. If LA were to respond in kind, there should have been .8 seconds on the clock when Payton inbounded that pass. LA got the short end of the deal on the Spurs side of the floor, SA got it on the other end, it evened out, the results would have been the same, .8, .4 seconds, it wouldn't have changed LA's strategy one iota.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 04:36:06 PM by Laker Fan »
Dan

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 04:43:28 PM »
Quote
I for one BBF have been in here giving the Spurs major props for the game last night, they came so close to pulling it out my heart stopped, total credit to them for not folding down the stretch when the Lakers had basically dominated the whole game.

But the protest coming from the Spurs front office is just sour grapes. If LA were to respond in kind, there should have been .8 seconds on the clock when Payton inbounded that pass. LA got the short end of the deal on the Spurs side of the floor, SA got it on the other end, it evened out, the results would have been the same, .8, .4 seconds, it wouldn't have changed LA's strategy one iota.
Dan I don't deny that the fans here have been good.  However Randy's holier than thou approach is bogus.  I would say that just about every team in a similar situation would file a protest.  It doesn't detract from their preparations for tomorrow.  It was probably a waste of their $10,000 filing fee.  But at the same time the move needed to be made.....maybe, just maybe, there was the same chance that the league would overrule as there is of winning the lottery.  But the team needed to make the attempt.  As I have always taught my kids; you always ask because you DON"T KNOW the answer until you do.

As far as the play....I agree the replays show that he released the shot before 0.0 on the clock.  I also have stated that I expected the league to deny the protest. The argument about adding .4 seconds due to when Duncan's shot went through the net is weak.  If that was the case then they should go back and add time after every made basket because the clock almost always ticks off some time before it is stopped.  That is bound to happen just from human reaction time.
 
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Guest_Randy

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2004, 05:00:06 PM »
Quote
Quote
I for one BBF have been in here giving the Spurs major props for the game last night, they came so close to pulling it out my heart stopped, total credit to them for not folding down the stretch when the Lakers had basically dominated the whole game.

But the protest coming from the Spurs front office is just sour grapes. If LA were to respond in kind, there should have been .8 seconds on the clock when Payton inbounded that pass. LA got the short end of the deal on the Spurs side of the floor, SA got it on the other end, it evened out, the results would have been the same, .8, .4 seconds, it wouldn't have changed LA's strategy one iota.
Dan I don't deny that the fans here have been good.  However Randy's holier than thou approach is bogus.  I would say that just about every team in a similar situation would file a protest.  It doesn't detract from their preparations for tomorrow.  It was probably a waste of their $10,000 filing fee.  But at the same time the move needed to be made.....maybe, just maybe, there was the same chance that the league would overrule as there is of winning the lottery.  But the team needed to make the attempt.  As I have always taught my kids; you always ask because you DON"T KNOW the answer until you do.

As far as the play....I agree the replays show that he released the shot before 0.0 on the clock.  I also have stated that I expected the league to deny the protest. The argument about adding .4 seconds due to when Duncan's shot went through the net is weak.  If that was the case then they should go back and add time after every made basket because the clock almost always ticks off some time before it is stopped.  That is bound to happen just from human reaction time.
Oh, please!  There are some fans here who are bigger than this -- don't assume that everyone is like this.  I have NEVER blamed the refs for a loss -- I have complained about the refs in games but in a series, as I have stated all the time, the best team wins!  You're theory about all fans doing this doesn't pan out -- read SpursX3 comments and you will see that not all fans are like that -- so give it a rest!

Offline Laker Fan

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 05:24:01 PM »
That's the whole point BBF, how can you say one is ripe for a legitimate protest and the other isn't, when they are both THE EXACT SAME THING? Humans stopped the clock .4 seconds late and put LA in the unenviable postion of having to score with an impossibly, well almost impossibly, short amount of time left and clearly violated the exact same rule San Antonio is citing and that's OK. But humans start the clock late and give Fisher an "unfair" extra amount of time to catch and shoot and that is worthy of the front office and the completely overrated Popovich crying in protest? Where is there a speck of difference in this?

The human equation is part of the game and there is absolutely no way they could have started that clock any faster to deny Fisher his shot short of putting sensors on his fingers to instantaniously trigger the clock when he touched it, and you know what? he still would have made it because they do that, they put them on the hoop as well and Fisher gets those .4 seconds back they gave to Duncan and then some, because as you said, the accumulated "screwups" of the refs give LA something like 5 seconds extra, maybe more.

Do you see how silly that sounds? Stupid protest, stupid reasoning, small minded pettiness that's all this is on the part of the Spurs front office, they leave Payton free to pick his target for the inbound, they leave Fisher basically alone with Ginobili guarding from behind and  they protest their ineptitude?!?! Please!
Dan

Offline JoMal

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Is this a joke? Spurs file protest
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2004, 05:53:57 PM »
Could be that both of your arguments are correct.

Laker fans, I agree that the protest was unlikely to succeed, so why file one. The timing was way too close to call one way or the other, as was the 0.8 seconds supposedly on the clock after Duncan's shot. The human element shut the clock off, missing the actual time by 0.3 seconds? And Fisher's shot was mistimed by 0.1 seconds? Sounds to me like the time keepers did an astounding job.

Spurs fans. though the protest was unlikely to succeed so there was no need to file one is not entirely true. What the hell did the team have to loose? The respect of the Laker organization?? :cry: It was absolutely the correct thing to do, just to confirm it was the right call and there was no controversy.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 05:54:22 PM by JoMal »
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."