Author Topic: Debate point question  (Read 3241 times)

Offline Joe Vancil

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Debate point question
« on: July 12, 2011, 04:28:19 PM »
Recently read a discussion article between two folks debating pro or con whether Kobe Bryant is a clutch shooter.  I find that argument pointless:  I don't think there's any question that Bryant is.  But it raises this question:

How do we define what is "clutch?"  Obviously, Derek Fisher's .4-second shot was clutch.  Equally obvious is Michael Jordan's shot over Craig Ehlo was clutch.  Which was "more" clutch?  How about Jordan's shot over Bryon Russell?  Was it more clutch than Fisher's?  After all - there was time on the clock after Jordan's - enough for Stockton to get up a ridiculously tough attempt.  If Stockton makes that, is Jordan less clutch?  So how do we define the ridiculously tough shot Duncan made before Derek Fisher's .4 second shot?

I've come to the conclusion that 1) end results matter, 2) clutch needs to be measured against expectation, 3) reputation - even if undeserved - counts.

In other words, there has to be something besides numbers in an evalutation of clutch.

And that leads to the next question:  how important is it to have an elite "clutch" kind of player?  Or are they so common that every team has one (or more)?  And if so, does that make it of less value?
Joe

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Debate point question
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 02:23:41 PM »
I think that the "situation/moment" aspect of "clutch" is crucial. I think it was Larry Bird who made a comment about anybody being able to make a shot, or 3 pointer, in the first 3 quarters of a game, what set certain players apart from the rest is their ability to hit those shots in the 4th. To take it a step further, I don't think players get to the level of being considered "clutch" unless they hit those shots in the playoffs, specifically in the Finals.  IMO that is a given, but I think most people take it to the level of it has to be a game winner, or the last shot taken by the winning team.  The .4 second example is perfect because nobody takes in to account the clutch shot TD made just before.  The shots that TD and Fisher made where more luck than clutch IMO, but both players have made clutch shots throughout their careers.

IMO most people confuse clutch with game winning or buzzer beater shots, its much more than that and a little more than a statistical analysis of shots made/missed in the closing minutes of close games.

There is that little something that players like Bird, Reggie, Cassell, Jordan, Kobe, and a few others have that demands they have the ball in their hands for that critical shot.

You combine opportunity, desire, and results together and you get "clutch". You don't get "clutch" without all 3 ingredients.

You don't need a clutch player to have a winning team but you need one to win titles.  Conversly, a cluch player alone doesn't guarantee a winning team let alone a championship.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:39:18 PM by WayOutWest »
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Debate point question
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 05:03:39 PM »
I think that the "situation/moment" aspect of "clutch" is crucial. I think it was Larry Bird who made a comment about anybody being able to make a shot, or 3 pointer, in the first 3 quarters of a game, what set certain players apart from the rest is their ability to hit those shots in the 4th. To take it a step further, I don't think players get to the level of being considered "clutch" unless they hit those shots in the playoffs, specifically in the Finals.  IMO that is a given, but I think most people take it to the level of it has to be a game winner, or the last shot taken by the winning team.  The .4 second example is perfect because nobody takes in to account the clutch shot TD made just before.  The shots that TD and Fisher made where more luck than clutch IMO, but both players have made clutch shots throughout their careers.

IMO most people confuse clutch with game winning or buzzer beater shots, its much more than that and a little more than a statistical analysis of shots made/missed in the closing minutes of close games.

There is that little something that players like Bird, Reggie, Cassell, Jordan, Kobe, and a few others have that demands they have the ball in their hands for that critical shot.

You combine opportunity, desire, and results together and you get "clutch". You don't get "clutch" without all 3 ingredients.

You don't need a clutch player to have a winning team but you need one to win titles.  Conversly, a cluch player alone doesn't guarantee a winning team let alone a championship.

My problem with your idea is that I don't think demanding the shot makes you "clutch," whereas I do think the ability to "rise to the occasion," even if you're not the #1 or #2 option *DOES* make you "clutch."  The example I would cite is Robert Horry.  No one can deny that he was clutch.  Yet he wasn't a demander - simply a person who perfromed when given the opportunity by his teammates.  Not being demanding may make him less of a superstar, but I don't think it makes him less "clutch."

Nor do I think you need to do it at every level in order to be "clutch," however, you should do it at the highest levels you arrive at.  My example here is Reggie Miller, who, in my opinion, is amont the two or three most "clutch" players that I've seen.  He never did it at the grand, "Finals" scale that, for example, Paxson or Kerr did.  But I'd call him far more "clutch" than Paxson or Kerr.

But I am starting to believe that there are two different levels of clutch.

The first level, the most commonly thought of one, is those players who, in big moments, make big plays, with the demands being placed on them to make big plays.  These are the people who don't necessarily hit the last-second shot, but who come up big, and usually in the closing minutes, of "the important games."  Notable about this level is that players from this level aren't just expected to hit the "big shot," but they're expected to have a "big game."  Names from this list include Jordan, Miller, Bird, Bryant, etc.

The second level are the players who make the single big play, at the moment the opportunity for their more limited, more singularly defined contribution.  These would be players like Robert Horry, or Steve Kerr, or John Paxson.

So, this leads me to question the idea of what we should call a player who shows up big in many situations, but not in the closing moments, or what we should call a player who pretty much has an awful "big game," but does close it out regularly.  And how should we account for notable stink bombs (e.g., Bryant's game 7 against Phoenix...can't remember the year) during big games?

I find all this interesting because I think we're eventually going to need a way to evaluate LeBron James.  He's had some spectacular performances, and some notable stink bombs.  LeBron's failures generally come across, though, as "coming up small in big games."  Let's say that he continues this trend, but manages to start "pulling it out by making the big play at the last moment."  Does that make him clutch?

And Kobe has had his share of stink bombs, too, - generally more of the "makes a bad mistake at a critical moment, but still has a good game" variety, although he's had his Game 7 vs. Phoenix stuff, too;  I don't think he's not "clutch." 

One thing we can see is that Kobe demands the ball in the closing minutes, whereas James doesn't.  Then again, is that just Kobe being Kobe and LeBron being LeBron, because generally speaking, Kobe *ALWAYS* demands the ball, whereas James generally DOESN'T - and I don't think *THAT* is being clutch/not clutch on either's part.  (It's just being selfish.)

And if we get into historical players - let's look at Russell.  He came up traditionally big in game 7's, but he wasn't the "last second shot" guy.  He never lost a Game 7.  (Even Jordan cannot say that.)  So why is Jordan looked at as infinitely more clutch than Russell?  (My answer is, "Because most people don't know their basketball history except from watching it on SportCenter.")  Is it somehow bad that Sam Jones takes the shot for the Celitcs, or Havlicek steals the ball?  Does that negate Russell's huge contribution?

I think there's something to explore here, but I'm having a real tough time getting a grip on what it is, and more importantly, how best to measure it.

Joe

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Debate point question
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 08:58:16 AM »
At this point in his career, please don't speak LeBron's name in the same breath as Kobe when it comes to clutch.  There is a HUGE difference between not demanding the ball and playing hot potato with when you actually get it. If you watched the 4th quarter of game 6 vs the Mavs, LeBron didn't just fade in the big moment, he ran away screaming.

I agree with your two teirs of "clutch". Horry is all-time clutch, as good as Jordan, when it came to that "moment" but not when it came to carrying a team in a big game ala Jordan. Although he came close that one year with the Spurs where he hit shot after shot, and not just spot ups, he actually drove to the rim ala his Rockets days.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 08:59:48 AM by WayOutWest »
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
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"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Debate point question
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 11:22:35 AM »
At this point in his career, please don't speak LeBron's name in the same breath as Kobe when it comes to clutch.  There is a HUGE difference between not demanding the ball and playing hot potato with when you actually get it. If you watched the 4th quarter of game 6 vs the Mavs, LeBron didn't just fade in the big moment, he ran away screaming.

I agree with your two teirs of "clutch". Horry is all-time clutch, as good as Jordan, when it came to that "moment" but not when it came to carrying a team in a big game ala Jordan. Although he came close that one year with the Spurs where he hit shot after shot, and not just spot ups, he actually drove to the rim ala his Rockets days.

I think the early-career LeBron goes in the same category as the early-career Kobe, with each of them doing what they do the rest of the game.  The noticeable difference is that Kobe grew out of his failures and into his successes, while as James has yet to do that.  The other noticeable difference is that Kobe's "failures" in his early career were at a smaller stage than LeBron's.

The equivalent I'd draw to LeBron right now is more along the lines of Julius Erving, minus his ABA days.  And Dirk Nowitzki prior to this year isn't a bad comparison, either.  Or Derrick Rose's college days.
Joe

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Debate point question
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 12:04:48 PM »
At this point in his career, please don't speak LeBron's name in the same breath as Kobe when it comes to clutch.  There is a HUGE difference between not demanding the ball and playing hot potato with when you actually get it. If you watched the 4th quarter of game 6 vs the Mavs, LeBron didn't just fade in the big moment, he ran away screaming.

I agree with your two teirs of "clutch". Horry is all-time clutch, as good as Jordan, when it came to that "moment" but not when it came to carrying a team in a big game ala Jordan. Although he came close that one year with the Spurs where he hit shot after shot, and not just spot ups, he actually drove to the rim ala his Rockets days.

I think the early-career LeBron goes in the same category as the early-career Kobe, with each of them doing what they do the rest of the game.  The noticeable difference is that Kobe grew out of his failures and into his successes, while as James has yet to do that.  The other noticeable difference is that Kobe's "failures" in his early career were at a smaller stage than LeBron's.

The equivalent I'd draw to LeBron right now is more along the lines of Julius Erving, minus his ABA days.  And Dirk Nowitzki prior to this year isn't a bad comparison, either.  Or Derrick Rose's college days.

Joe, you ignorant slut! Actually, Kobe failed but at least he tried, actually the Lakers failed because Kobe was taking the shot(s) that NVE or Shaq should have taken. LeBron fails because he runs away from the "moment", just watch the 4th quarter of game 6 of this years finals to see it. James kept geting rid of the ball like it was covered in acid. Same goes for Dirk, win or lose, Dirk went full speed in to the moment, yes he failed or was shut down but he did NOT run and hide.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"