Al Jefferson gonna be a top 3 big next year?

[Joe Vancil]

Lastly you know Fishers daughters medical situation?  Please do provide the link(s).  Since you know.

Don't start this 6v11$#1+ again.

From here on out, I'm making this my standard policy: 

If anyone challenges "post a link to the evidence," I intend to hold to this following standard:

1)  Unless the person making the challenge posts a link to a reputable source, I refuse to acknowledge his position as sustainable until he posts his link.
2)  In the event the person challenged DOES post a credible link, I will consider him to have WON the debate, as he was challenged SPECIFICALLY to sustain his position, and in posting the link, he has done that.

In other words, if anyone states "post the link," I will hold him to the higher standard of proof.  "Post the link" is the lazy man's way of saying, "Do my research for me."  Too many people here (yes, "one" qualifies as "too many") use this tactic as the nuclear option, and assume that a non-post of a link automatically makes their position, which they've not defended to the same standard, stronger.  That's garbage.

I have no idea what Fisher's daughter's condition is right now.  Can't say I've seen anything said about it in the news at all.  It may be still life-threatening.  It may be in remission.  It may be under control.  I simply don't know.

I'm betting that Reality is operating on his belief that the situation hasn't changed rather than a knowledge that it hasn't changed.  And that's not an unreasonable position.  But not being unreasonable doesn't automatically make it ironclad fact.

[westkoast]

I'm betting that Reality is operating on his belief that the situation hasn't changed rather than a knowledge that it hasn't changed.  And that's not an unreasonable position.  But not being unreasonable doesn't automatically make it ironclad fact.

The situation has changed.  For someone who follows the Lakers more than I do AND lives in Southern California I find it very hard to believe he didn't hear Derek Fisher make the statement his daughters cancer is in remission and she regained her eye sight.  

Aside from all this, a grown man making snide comments about a father doing what he feels is best for his child and family just because he doesn't like the basketball team he plays for is asinine. 

[Reality]

1)  Unless the person making the challenge posts a link to a reputable source, I refuse to acknowledge his position as sustainable until he posts his link.
2)  In the event the person challenged DOES post a credible link, I will consider him to have WON the debate, as he was challenged SPECIFICALLY to sustain his position, and in posting the link, he has done that.

Not sure why original schpeeler is not obligated to provide any proof but at any rate....

From the L.A. Times:
Ted feel free to weigh in on the optical facilities available in Salt Lake.
Also on how Jazz fan says Derek Swisher told the Jazz he was going to NY (where she was receiving treatment) but then bailed to LA the second Miller released him.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/comments_blog/2010/05/derek-fisher-utah-fans-lakers.html
You'd expect this in Detroit, or Philadelphia, even New York. But rude and embarrassing fan behavior in Utah?

Derek Fisher, 35, has spent most of his career wearing the purple and gold of the Lakers. He was drafted out of college in the first round and, with the exception of two years at Golden State and a year at Utah, he has been a Laker.

Tragedy struck in 2007 when Fisher was playing for the Jazz. His 10-month-old daughter, Tatum, was diagnosed with retinoblastoma, a cancerous tumor, in her left eye. According to the Cancer Blog, only a few hundred cases of retinoblastoma are diagnosed in the U.S. each year.

At the end of the summer, the Jazz accepted Fisher's request to be released so he could live in one of the six or seven cities where he could obtain the best treatment for his daughter.

When asked how many teams would be interested in him, Fisher said, "I'll be 33 in August. I'm 6-1. I averaged 10 points this year. I don't know how many people feel strongly about what I do."

Fisher ended up back in L.A., one of the cities where he could get top care for Tatum, and where he has fit in beautifully with his team. He took a pay cut to return to Los Angeles and joined a team that at the time wasn't what is on display today. The ugliness he experienced in Salt Lake City in the playoffs, however, is cringe-worthy.

Not only was a grown man spotted behind the backboard covering his eye as a form of a taunt, but two young women sitting courtside wore T-shirts reading "Fisher" and "Lied." All of these actions obviously targeting the tragedy of Fisher's baby girl for their ridicule.

Times columnist Bill Plaschke wrote a scathing piece berating a city that prides itself with its family values. Naturally, Laker fans jumped into the comments to praise Plaschke, but Jazz fans also joined in the discussion to defend their team and their fellow fans. You can read some of  the comments, on both sides, after the jump ...

Fish Shot Caller wrote: No one is arguing whether he should or should not move. The argument is that there are other options for medical treatment in Utah which are just as good as there is in LA. It appears (and it may not be the case) that these options were not explored because he bolted for LA IMMEDIATELY. Fans are mad at him because the entire sports world thinks the only cancer treatment facilities are in California because Fisher claims thats the only place to get cancer treatment. This is not the case however and no one else seems to recognize that. Facilities at BYU are just as good. Fans despise him because it appears he bolted for LA (The evil empire) under the guise of his daughters sickness. Like it or not thats how it is.

Fredrico wrote: I thought Mormons were supposed to have a sunny, cheerful disposition and be big on Family Values?

senator wrote: Tatum's cancer is in remission, and she's gained 50% of her eyesight back. It appears Derek Fisher made the right choice in finding the best treatment and care for his daughter.

Damion wrote: I attended the game.  The truth is, I heard many more mean spirited comments about how Utah sucks and how Mormon?s suck than I heard about Fisher.  If Plaschke heard the chants about Fisher than he most certainly heard the comments that were yelled out about Mormons.  To report on one and not the other is, in my opinion, poor journalism.  Or perhaps it was just selective hearing on the part of Plaschke.

CaseyCSullivan said: There is no way of understanding OUR collective dislike for Fisher unless you were here watching him that season. He never wanted to come to Utah, he hated being here and he did all he could to leave. Take his daughter out of it...HE PLAYS FOR THE LAKERS!!! We hate ALL Laker players besides, he never really liked Utah. It should also be noted that he did not "win" that game for the Jazz. The team did. He hit a big shot but the Jazz would have won that game without him. So we have said it once, I'll say it again: FISHER SUCKS!

sbnjac80 wrote: I am a lukewarm Jazz Fan at best, but from what I hear from Jazz Fans here is that the best Cancer Doctor for Fisher's daughter was in Salt Lake City.  He didn't need to move to LA to be closer to her.  They believe he weaseled out of his contract so he could get out of Utah, which of course infuriated them when Fisher said it was because of his daughter.  In their minds, it was bogus.  They wouldn't chant "Fisher sucks" just because he used to play for Utah. -This has nothing to do with race or Religion.  Why is everything always about that?  They (Jazz fans) don't like Fisher because they think he lied to get out of his contract.

Chrisopher wrote: One, people shouldnt' be booing Derek Fisher in Utah.  Period.  He's a pro's pro and the facts are clear:  he took a paycut and signed w/ an inferior team AT THE TIME.  Two, people should not be dumping on Utah, in general, or Mormons.  We come in all flavors here.  I don't know why they believe as they do, but they don't impinge on my beliefs, so I'm fine w/ it.  I think Obama's Rev. Wright sounded like a lunatic, but that's not stopping me from loving Chicago when I visit.  I've also vacationed in Utah (Zion and Bryce) and it's a beautiful state.  This is about sports people and let's not forget:  Plaschke is a pretty limited columnist.  He's so overdue for a good column, I'm worried he might have early signs of Alzheimer's.

So what is your take? Were the fans out of line in Utah? Should they be allowed to behave any way they want when they pay top dollar to get into the game? Or should fans learn to respectfully root for their team, and boo the opposition in a manner they won't be ashamed of in retrospect?

Leave your comments below.

-- Tony Pierce

[Reality]

Previously posted by Ted. 

That's the funny thing. Salt Lake has one of the best children's hospitals in the country. Pretty much the entire Mountain West and even New Mexico and much of Arizona fly critical children to Primary Children's Hospital in SL. They even have a doctor with experience with this kind of eye cancer.

[Reality]

I have no idea what Fisher's daughter's condition is right now.  Can't say I've seen anything said about it in the news at all.  It may be still life-threatening.  It may be in remission.  It may be under control.  I simply don't know.

I'm betting that Reality is operating on his belief that the situation hasn't changed rather than a knowledge that it hasn't changed.  And that's not an unreasonable position.  But not being unreasonable doesn't automatically make it ironclad fact.

Correct, i do not know her current condition. 

westkoast

The situation has changed.  For someone who follows the Lakers more than I do AND lives in Southern California I find it very hard to believe he didn't hear Derek Fisher make the statement his daughters cancer is in remission and she regained her eye sight. 

Aside from all this, a grown man making snide comments about a father doing what he feels is best for his child and family just because he doesn't like the basketball team he plays for is asinine.

Except i have at no time made snide comments about Fishers daughter.  Nor have i ever wanted her to not get better.  At to her status, i did see a piece come on halftime of the rigged Finals and chose not to watch it.  Your attempts to slanderously misquote me would normally be cause for a rebuttal, but it's just....you.  Such an obvious attempt to make yourself appear to be the Great Defender of All Things Laker and self righteously fabricate that you are so much more compassionate then any of the rest of us towards Fisher and his daughter.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________


On the compassion front, while again i want and always have wanted Fishers to recover, i have much more concern for the poverty stricken or even not so poverty stricken who have not made 60+ million dollars as Fisher has and thus he can afford to live anywhere he chooses in the U.S. and easily fly her to wherever he wants for the best treatment possible.  That he chose LA, so be it.  Wish others with children who do not have multi millions had that option.

[Ted]

I can't remember exactly what I said about this when it happened, except of course what Reality quoted here.

I seem to remember being not exactly mad at Fisher, but more puzzled by his stated reason for leaving. The University of Utah, Primary Children's Medical Center, and Huntsman Cancer Center are all among the best medical facilities west of the Mississippi. Part of me thought it was bogus, especially after he signed with the Lakers so quickly.

But part of me respected his commitment to family. Most of all, I was proud of Larry Miller for walking the walk. The Mormon majority of Utah IS supposedly all about family values, and I'm glad Miller took Fisher at face value, whether Fisher lied or not.

As far as fans heckling him about it . . . big deal. These guys hear all kinds of crazy stuff every night. And as I recall, the Jazz and their fans got their comeuppance the very same night. Didn't Kobe go apeshit over it and singlehandedly beat the Jazz?

Platzschke is a beeyotch with an agenda. His words were meaningless to me. Kobe's actions, however, were not.

[westkoast]

I can't remember exactly what I said about this when it happened, except of course what Reality quoted here.

I seem to remember being not exactly mad at Fisher, but more puzzled by his stated reason for leaving. The University of Utah, Primary Children's Medical Center, and Huntsman Cancer Center are all among the best medical facilities west of the Mississippi. Part of me thought it was bogus, especially after he signed with the Lakers so quickly.

But part of me respected his commitment to family. Most of all, I was proud of Larry Miller for walking the walk. The Mormon majority of Utah IS supposedly all about family values, and I'm glad Miller took Fisher at face value, whether Fisher lied or not.

As far as fans heckling him about it . . . big deal. These guys hear all kinds of crazy stuff every night. And as I recall, the Jazz and their fans got their comeuppance the very same night. Didn't Kobe go apeshit over it and singlehandedly beat the Jazz?

Platzschke is a beeyotch with an agenda. His words were meaningless to me. Kobe's actions, however, were not.

It wasn't that Utah doesn't have good medical facilities it is that the top specialists in the country for this particular form of cancer were in Los Angeles and Boston.

And yes, Kobe did destroy the Jazz that night for the booing and heckling.

[Reality]

It wasn't that Utah doesn't have good medical facilities it is that the top specialists in the country for this particular form of cancer were in Los Angeles and Boston.

Ted, any recollection by yourself or Jazzworld at large of top specialist being in only LA and Boston?  She was being treated in NY at the time.
The article said
"At the end of the summer, the Jazz accepted Fisher's request to be released so he could live in one of the six or seven cities where he could obtain the best treatment for his daughter. "

[Joe Vancil]

And I'm sorry, but I still don't understand most Utah fans' anger at Fisher.

EVEN IF his daughter didn't have cancer, the fact was he WALKED AWAY from the contract by agreement.  He wasn't BOUGHT OUT.  He didn't say to the Miller family, "Give me half the value of the contract, and I'll leave," and yet we see whining and complaining players who want to be bought out at 90+ % value so that they can sign for the minimum on a team that is competing for a championship and still get their big payday.  Fisher didn't do that.  And he went to a team that WASN'T a championship-level team when he went there, or even after he got there!

You can hate Fisher because he's a Laker, and I'm okay with that.  You can hate him because he's a flopper, and I'm okay with that.  You can hate him because he's not all that talented, or because he's a limited player, or because he's one of the big-wigs of the Players Union.  But you have to respect the fact that he left the money on the table rather than trying to grab it and take it with him on his way out the door.

[westkoast]

Ted, any recollection by yourself or Jazzworld at large of top specialist being in only LA and Boston?  She was being treated in NY at the time.
The article said
"At the end of the summer, the Jazz accepted Fisher's request to be released so he could live in one of the six or seven cities where he could obtain the best treatment for his daughter. "

You have the quote in front of you that says that Utah was not one of the places that had the specialists.  Read it again.   You are wrong. 

You are continuing to spin this as a league wide conspiracy to get Fisher in Los Angeles because that is all they needed to win a title.  We get the bolding.  We get the dancing around you are doing.  The fact that you thought you were smart enough to lead Ted into agreeing with you and him not picking up on it is funny.   We've seen this play out before in your mind on this board.  Here I thought you got over the Lord Sternfish bs of years past.  Utah did not have the specialists.  Los Angeles did.  Los Angeles is also the city Fisher played in most of his career.  If someone has the option of having a specialist and a franchise the adores him vs having a specialist and being the new old guy at a franchise he doesn't know as well (NOT IN UTAH), which one would any logical person who doesn't have a sick obsession with a certain basketball team pick?  Why you continue to harp on this I don't know.  Just come out and say you think David "Darth NBAus" Stern gave his daughter cancer so he could return with KobMe and the Lakers!!!  You cracked the case of the god-like powers of nba marketers!!!

You are so obsessed with a basketball team that you would put yourself and your family in a worse position just to avoid them.  That is REALLY weird.

[Ted]

Ted, any recollection by yourself or Jazzworld at large of top specialist being in only LA and Boston?  She was being treated in NY at the time.
The article said
"At the end of the summer, the Jazz accepted Fisher's request to be released so he could live in one of the six or seven cities where he could obtain the best treatment for his daughter. "

I believe I may have speculated about it, but I have no solid information that a specialist in that particular form of cancer resides in Utah. Again, all I know is that the facilities in SLC are top tier.

Sorry can't help you beyond that.

[Ted]

Also on how Jazz fan says Derek Swisher told the Jazz he was going to NY (where she was receiving treatment) but then bailed to LA the second Miller released him.

But, rather than let this little gem lose its sparkle, I will confirm that this little tidbit appeared in the news with unnamed sources at the Jazz confirming that Fisher said New York and went to L.A.

[Ted]

The fact that you thought you were smart enough to lead Ted into agreeing with you and him not picking up on it is funny.

I don't fully understand this sentence.

[Joe Vancil]

Also on how Jazz fan says Derek Swisher told the Jazz he was going to NY (where she was receiving treatment) but then bailed to LA the second Miller released him.

But, rather than let this little gem lose its sparkle, I will confirm that this little tidbit appeared in the news with unnamed sources at the Jazz confirming that Fisher said New York and went to L.A.

Now *THAT* has booing potential.

The problem is that there are tampering rules in place that mean that Fisher couldn't know where he'd be able to go until he got free from Utah.  And after he was free from Utah, Utah has no say in where he can or can't go. 

I would hope that Fisher approached New York first, was told, "Thanks, but no thanks," and then went to LA.  In such a case, there's no reason to boo Fisher.

If he SAID to Utah he was approaching New York first, and then didn't, then he should be booed mercilessly.

[Reality]

Quote from: Reality on July 25, 2010, 11:13:24 AM
Also on how Jazz fan says Derek Swisher told the Jazz he was going to NY (where she was receiving treatment) but then bailed to LA the second Miller released him.

But, rather than let this little gem lose its sparkle, I will confirm that this little tidbit appeared in the news with unnamed sources at the Jazz confirming that Fisher said New York and went to L.A.

Well Joe, i know Ted isn't a "link" but rather a person.
Yet, he is a non fabricating one at that and an S.L.C. vicinity resident with a history of credible, accurate Jazz info.
I'm counting this as valid.