OT and this is supposed to help prove the law is unreasonable?

[JoMal]

Note: No representative national or state surveys provide an accurate direct count of undocumented immigrants and their characteristics. The most credible estimates use a residual technique in which undocumented immigrant populations are estimated based on subtracting estimates of legal immigrants from estimates of all immigrants.
Sources: Pew Hispanic Center. Department of Homeland Security. National Agricultural Workers Survey. U.S. Census Bureau. Urban Institute. PPIC Statewide Survey, March 2008.

What did you expect? They are called "undocumented" for a very good reason.

[ziggy]

I have read the comments here, but to be honest I have only followed this particular situation on the periphery so I would not be qualified to offer a great opinion on the Az law.

First the biggest problem we have in this country with regards to immigration is that we have made it clear that we want some immigration, but we make the process of legal immigration so onerous and difficult that we force people to immigrate illegally.  Those who want to come legally are put in an untenable situation; the time to an answer is excessive, those allowed in so small relative to the level of immigration we are really demanding, and the process of legally immigrating so complex that we create our own problem.  Bashing on illegals serves no purpose, and really does not address the true problem.

I feel the same with regards to bashing on businesses that hire illegals.  You cannot ask for documentation from just "latinos", that is discriminatory.  You are still legally liable even if you get bogus documents and yet there is not a simple and streamlined way to determine if someone is legal and if documents are not bogus.

As Jomal says, illegals actually add far more in value than they take in services.  The idea that they are sucking our health care system is a red herring, I have yet to find any documented evidence that illegals are a significant cost to our health care system.  Illegals avoid those things like the plague, that is a very easy way to get caught and deported.  Undocumented workers will pay far far more into Social Security and Medicare than they will ever pull out.

I also have a problem with local law enforcement spending time searching out illegals.  I am not sure that the Az law will encourage that or not, but we have bigger problems than that to focus on.

We have to come to grips with our southern border though.  The biggest issue is the drug trade.  I believe that the Az law is actually focused on addressing this, rather than the illegals problem, but that is just my speculation.  I live in the west, and I live near one of the most significant drug trafficking corridors in the country.  The volume of meth, cocaine, and heroin that is coming from Mexico is staggering.  The volume of human trafficking is also staggeringly high, and once again is dominated by the drug gangs and cartels in Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua.  This is an endemic problem in this country and our leaders have abjectly failed us for decades in this regard.

[Reality]

What did you expect? They are called "undocumented" for a very good reason.

Exactlly.
This study does little if anything to back your points of:
2 - Illegals can be taxed for their labor, but unlikely to take advantage of available services as much as some apparently think they do. In California, they are referred to as 'undocumented'. If they become 'documented' in some way, Immigration can find them.
Yet food stamps, ER hospital, more medical services and a bevy of other stuff can be accessed by undocumented.  And they most certainly are in SoCal, undercover work caught hispanic social workers coaching hundreds of fellow Southies how work the system.  Some Asian chicks are queens at working the system, going into the grocery store to load up with food on food stamps then pushing three carts out to their brand new SUV in the parking lot.  Merely drop by a hospital ER room.  Bear in mind, altho i certainly do not approve, I don't really care.  The money blown by the U.S. gov't could provide medical and housing for all, documented or not.  Now we get the British Petroleum company and associated demons spilling all their crap all over the Gulf.  Will those bazillionaires end up paying?  Nope.
I think there has been studies over how much undocumenteds cost the tax system by using such services.

4 - While at any given point in time, there are millions of illegals in the United States, studies done here in California found that twenty years after arrival, roughly 2 percent are still living here. The rest have gone back home with the money they earned.
Here in SoCal I would say it's more like 70% stay, and invite their fellow undocs to come join them.  

[JoMal]

And yet, last year, the net gain in population to California from all migratory movement to and from the state amounted to all of 37,600 people gained.

[rickortreat]

I have read the comments here, but to be honest I have only followed this particular situation on the periphery so I would not be qualified to offer a great opinion on the Az law.

First the biggest problem we have in this country with regards to immigration is that we have made it clear that we want some immigration, but we make the process of legal immigration so onerous and difficult that we force people to immigrate illegally.  Those who want to come legally are put in an untenable situation; the time to an answer is excessive, those allowed in so small relative to the level of immigration we are really demanding, and the process of legally immigrating so complex that we create our own problem.  Bashing on illegals serves no purpose, and really does not address the true problem.

I feel the same with regards to bashing on businesses that hire illegals.  You cannot ask for documentation from just "latinos", that is discriminatory.  You are still legally liable even if you get bogus documents and yet there is not a simple and streamlined way to determine if someone is legal and if documents are not bogus.

As Jomal says, illegals actually add far more in value than they take in services.  The idea that they are sucking our health care system is a red herring, I have yet to find any documented evidence that illegals are a significant cost to our health care system.  Illegals avoid those things like the plague, that is a very easy way to get caught and deported.  Undocumented workers will pay far far more into Social Security and Medicare than they will ever pull out.

I also have a problem with local law enforcement spending time searching out illegals.  I am not sure that the Az law will encourage that or not, but we have bigger problems than that to focus on.

We have to come to grips with our southern border though.  The biggest issue is the drug trade.  I believe that the Az law is actually focused on addressing this, rather than the illegals problem, but that is just my speculation.  I live in the west, and I live near one of the most significant drug trafficking corridors in the country.  The volume of meth, cocaine, and heroin that is coming from Mexico is staggering.  The volume of human trafficking is also staggeringly high, and once again is dominated by the drug gangs and cartels in Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua.  This is an endemic problem in this country and our leaders have abjectly failed us for decades in this regard.

I have a couple of problems with what you said here. iIlegals do not pay social security or income tax or have any withheld. If the owner is hiring illegals he's paying them under the table.  They may create value for the business owner, but for the average taxpayer it is a net loss.  If you think you can go live in any country you want as an illegal, try it and see how far you get, before you get arrested and deported!  I can and do consider illegal residents criminals.  If they paid taxes like everyone else, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Like any human being they can be a net gain for the society at large, but they need to be here legally and the government HAS TO PROTECT OUR BORDERS.  If they don't do that, what the hell do we need a government for? Mexico and Latin America are invading the US, they just haven't declared war! 

As for your concern regarding the Southern Border, that is my primary concern for the reasons you stated. It's not just more people, it's people who are profiting criminal enterprises, I think legalization could kill their businesses, but I'm not sure how we could satisfy people's desire for Heroin, Cocaine and Meth when I don't think those are acceptable drugs.  We would want to supply it with an eye towards weaning them off the drugs, and they might still want more and thereby keep the black market functioning. It costs US taxpayers a huge amount in salaries and infrastructure for law enforcement and incarceration and the country is still overwhelmed. 

[westkoast]

I have a couple of problems with what you said here. iIlegals do not pay social security or income tax or have any withheld. If the owner is hiring illegals he's paying them under the table. 

Not always true Rick.  There are many instances of illegals giving false social security cards and working under another name.  I knew a guy who worked at the local Taco Bell I use to get breakfast from who worked there for 2 straight years under a fake social.  Everything was taken out of their pay checks as if they were anyone else.

[rickortreat]

I have a couple of problems with what you said here. iIlegals do not pay social security or income tax or have any withheld. If the owner is hiring illegals he's paying them under the table. 

Not always true Rick.  There are many instances of illegals giving false social security cards and working under another name.  I knew a guy who worked at the local Taco Bell I use to get breakfast from who worked there for 2 straight years under a fake social.  Everything was taken out of their pay checks as if they were anyone else.

IF that's the case, then he's actually paying into the system, so I don't have a problem with that!  I wonder how likely it will be for him to get the benefits under the false SSN. IF he doesn't get the money that's a real bonus for the rest of us who pay into that system.  I would guess illegal ID cards are a big business along the border area too!

[ziggy]

I have read the comments here, but to be honest I have only followed this particular situation on the periphery so I would not be qualified to offer a great opinion on the Az law.

First the biggest problem we have in this country with regards to immigration is that we have made it clear that we want some immigration, but we make the process of legal immigration so onerous and difficult that we force people to immigrate illegally.  Those who want to come legally are put in an untenable situation; the time to an answer is excessive, those allowed in so small relative to the level of immigration we are really demanding, and the process of legally immigrating so complex that we create our own problem.  Bashing on illegals serves no purpose, and really does not address the true problem.

I feel the same with regards to bashing on businesses that hire illegals.  You cannot ask for documentation from just "latinos", that is discriminatory.  You are still legally liable even if you get bogus documents and yet there is not a simple and streamlined way to determine if someone is legal and if documents are not bogus.

As Jomal says, illegals actually add far more in value than they take in services.  The idea that they are sucking our health care system is a red herring, I have yet to find any documented evidence that illegals are a significant cost to our health care system.  Illegals avoid those things like the plague, that is a very easy way to get caught and deported.  Undocumented workers will pay far far more into Social Security and Medicare than they will ever pull out.

I also have a problem with local law enforcement spending time searching out illegals.  I am not sure that the Az law will encourage that or not, but we have bigger problems than that to focus on.

We have to come to grips with our southern border though.  The biggest issue is the drug trade.  I believe that the Az law is actually focused on addressing this, rather than the illegals problem, but that is just my speculation.  I live in the west, and I live near one of the most significant drug trafficking corridors in the country.  The volume of meth, cocaine, and heroin that is coming from Mexico is staggering.  The volume of human trafficking is also staggeringly high, and once again is dominated by the drug gangs and cartels in Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua.  This is an endemic problem in this country and our leaders have abjectly failed us for decades in this regard.

I have a couple of problems with what you said here. iIlegals do not pay social security or income tax or have any withheld. If the owner is hiring illegals he's paying them under the table.  They may create value for the business owner, but for the average taxpayer it is a net loss.  If you think you can go live in any country you want as an illegal, try it and see how far you get, before you get arrested and deported!  I can and do consider illegal residents criminals.  If they paid taxes like everyone else, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Like any human being they can be a net gain for the society at large, but they need to be here legally and the government HAS TO PROTECT OUR BORDERS.  If they don't do that, what the hell do we need a government for? Mexico and Latin America are invading the US, they just haven't declared war! 

As for your concern regarding the Southern Border, that is my primary concern for the reasons you stated. It's not just more people, it's people who are profiting criminal enterprises, I think legalization could kill their businesses, but I'm not sure how we could satisfy people's desire for Heroin, Cocaine and Meth when I don't think those are acceptable drugs.  We would want to supply it with an eye towards weaning them off the drugs, and they might still want more and thereby keep the black market functioning. It costs US taxpayers a huge amount in salaries and infrastructure for law enforcement and incarceration and the country is still overwhelmed. 

Rick,
The vast majority of all illegals are working under a false SSN, paying income, and payroll taxes.  There are clearly some who are day laborers, but the majority are not.  There are also a number working as migrants, but again the farmer is pulling out payroll and income taxes.  Those who do work under a false SSN never draw upon that account.  The government loves this, and knows this happens, which leads to paragraph 2.

I did not say we should ignore the illegal problem, and that the government shouldn't protect our border.  The government should, but hasn't, and the government has encouraged immigration (because it can tax an entire segment of our economy which will never draw the services relative to the taxes they pay), while at the same time making it excessively difficult to immigrate legally.  In other words I believe we should focus our ire at our governments ineptitude, and not at the illegals, the vast majority of whom are hardworking, honest, people wanting a better life for themselves and their family.

I am somewhat conflicted regarding drug use.  I think our present approach of criminalizing addiction is fundamentally at its core ineffective, and is not the answer.  At the same time the legalization of narcotics is not the answer.  The lives of too many innocents have been destroyed by the abuse of narcotics by others.  The drug gangs though clearly have to be aggressively prosecuted.  They are violent and corrupt criminal organizations.  Our government and the Mexican government have ignored the problem, and in many ways allowed it to fester, and within Mexico corrupt the police and government.

[Lurker]

Rick,
The vast majority of all illegals are working under a false SSN, paying income, and payroll taxes.  There are clearly some who are day laborers, but the majority are not.  There are also a number working as migrants, but again the farmer is pulling out payroll and income taxes.  Those who do work under a false SSN never draw upon that account.  The government loves this, and knows this happens, which leads to paragraph 2.

I did not say we should ignore the illegal problem, and that the government shouldn't protect our border.  The government should, but hasn't, and the government has encouraged immigration (because it can tax an entire segment of our economy which will never draw the services relative to the taxes they pay), while at the same time making it excessively difficult to immigrate legally.  In other words I believe we should focus our ire at our governments ineptitude, and not at the illegals, the vast majority of whom are hardworking, honest, people wanting a better life for themselves and their family.

Then there is the sales taxes, property taxes through rents, usually some form of auto tax/registration, etc.  Even though illegals send a lot of money back "home" they also buy food, clothing, entertainment, gas, utilities and other goods that increase our economy.

There has been studies in Texas that show most illegals pay more in taxes (fed,state & local) then they claim in services.

I am somewhat conflicted regarding drug use.  I think our present approach of criminalizing addiction is fundamentally at its core ineffective, and is not the answer.  At the same time the legalization of narcotics is not the answer.  The lives of too many innocents have been destroyed by the abuse of narcotics by others.  The drug gangs though clearly have to be aggressively prosecuted.  They are violent and corrupt criminal organizations.  Our government and the Mexican government have ignored the problem, and in many ways allowed it to fester, and within Mexico corrupt the police and government.

I have some problems in this area also.  I see this as very similar to prohibition.  When you make something illegal or forbidden then the demand seems to increase.  And the addiction or desire to use will be fed by some supplier.  And making something illegal just forces the suppliers to use force and those suppliers tend to come from criminal organizations.  Just as repealing prohibition did not lead to a whole nation of alcoholics AND removed the criminal element from the distribution system; IMO the legalization of drugs would lead to the same result.  As an added bonus the govt could tax the drugs (like they do tobacco or alcohol) and reduce spending on enforcement/punishment.

[WayOutWest]

If the owner is hiring illegals he's paying them under the table.  They may create value for the business owner, but for the average taxpayer it is a net loss. 

How many people are breaking the law here?  I count TWO, but only ONE is being penalized.  That is my problem with the issue, it's obviously a red herring tactic and so many people are falling for it.  Oppose these one-sided laws in Arizona and the TERRORISTS WIN!

[Joe Vancil]

I cannot oppose the law in Arizona because it is only dealing with half the problem, though, WayOut.  It's dealing with one half of the problem.  Obviously, I think I should demand more, and expect the other half in addition.

Basically, I look at this whole adventure as another in the long list of government failures.

Obama tells me I shouldn't be upset at government failures, and mistrust my government, because my government is *ME*.  That's bull.  I don't think that 10 years of waiting for INS (or whatever they call themselves these days) is acceptable...but it's what the government does.  I don't think it should take upward of a year and a half to straighten out a status of someone who is working to get legal...but that's what the government does.  I don't think we should have one-sided laws, passed by a state, since the government isn't taking a problem seriously...if it were me, I'd do my darn job.  You see, Mr. President, I disagree that I am the government, because the government accepts results that I WOULD NEVER ACCEPT FROM MYSELF.  If I was *really* the boss, I'd set some reasonable timelines for getting some changes in place, and I'd hold the people in those jobs accountable to getting that work done.  And there'd be some firings based on poor performance.

I don't approve of spending more money than I bring in.  I don't approve of bailing out failing businesses.  I don't approve of procedures that allow 41 votes to overrule 59, and I don't approve of procedures that hide votes.  I don't approve of my government doing anything other than national security in secret.  I don't approve of conferring more rights on people who try to blow up planes than on people who overstay a visitor's visa.  I demand better, and I don't think anyone here DOESN'T.  The reason we don't trust the government is nothing is going to get done about any of this.  It wasn't last time around, and when it comes around next time, it won't be fixed.

If the government wants us to TRUST it, it needs to EARN it. 

Sorry for drifting off topic, but I'm on a tirade about the failure of our government for at least the past 20 years.  20 years of experience says a whole lot more to me than a few words in a document written over two centuries ago.  I'm from Missouri.  You gotta SHOW ME.