OT and this is supposed to help prove the law is unreasonable?

[Reality]

AP - The furor over Arizona's new law cracking down on illegal immigrants grew Monday as opponents used refried beans to smear swastikas on the state Capitol,.........

editors note:  I'm not on either side.

[westkoast]

Im on the side of going after the businesses that employ illegal workers just as hard as going after the illegal workers themselves.  The cops, if they have reasonable suspicion, should be able to detain a business owner until he can prove all his workers are indeed legal immigrants.  If they can detain Latinos this way than I think they should apply it to the business owners as well.  Simply put they are here to work and make a buck.  When unemployment spiked in California immigrants were LEAVING the state in record numbers.  Pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together.

As far as the nazi reference, I wasn't sure either.   I do think them targeting a group of people over financial issues and jobs sounds a bit like what the Nazis did with the Jews.  The Jews were also blamed for financial issues in Germany.  A similar chant of 'they are taking our jobs' 'they bring down our country' 'they all manipulate the system to their advantage' is being said in Arizona now.

 If the people passed the law then they passed the law.  If there is enough push back and people show its a mistake then it will be repealed.    I don't agree with it and that is why I would never live in a state with people who have that mindset in the first place.  You would have to have been out there as much as I have over the past 2 years to fully understand what I am getting at.

[Reality]

will they be adding cheese to the swastikas?  Salsa?

[westkoast]

will they be adding cheese to the swastikas?  Salsa?

Ok I tried to have an honest discussion with you but you are unable to do anything but scratch the service on any topic.

[Joe Vancil]

I agree that if you're going to go after the illegal immigrants, you should also be going after the people hiring them.

As for the law - I find it interesting that Arizona is doing this while the federal government is *NOT*.  The fact of the matter is that I don't think this is going to fly, simply because if it *DOES* fly, it gives the federal government another black eye when compared to state governments.  Then again, that MAY be the larger point.

That said, I expect this to be embraced by the Tea Party Movement.

Here's the real problem:  cheap immigrant labor undercuts unions.  Unions are pretty much a constituency the Democrats count on.  If the unions get involved in the debate, this could really become an issue where BOTH political parties alienate constituencies.

In times past, I'd have supported this law, because I believe that if you want to come to America, you need to play by the rules.  Then I got to see the reality of the situation - that a person who *TRIES* to play by the rules gets to wait for a decade for the government to get around to things.  That's completely unacceptable.  The system is being gamed, and unless you game the system, you're going to get absolutely nowhere, because you're going to have to wait for-freaking-ever.

Here's the thing:  if the government can't get all their stuff done in 6 months, that's just too long.  The process needs to be streamlined.  But that's not a big story, so no one wants to talk about that.

I think there's a problem here, and I think it needs to be fixed.  But I think the problem is bigger than the law or the story.  And once again, it's a case of too big of a government doing too poor of a job.  When you ADD people, the process should get *FASTER* and be done *MORE* correctly.  We seem to get the opposite when we add to our government.  And that smells of corruption, to me.

[jn]

One other incredible element of this law is the option of citizens suing the police for not enforcing the law.  That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.  Some knucklehead can file tie up the courts and force the police to spend taxpayer money defending how they interpret a vague law?  My brain is imploding thinking about all the problems with this part of the measure.

[WayOutWest]

I agree that if you're going to go after the illegal immigrants, you should also be going after the people hiring them.

That is the end of the story right there.  This is just another case of red herring politics and the gullible American public is being taken hook, line, and sinker.  While this type of tactic is not exclusive to "Nazi's", it is a very obvious "easy out" attempt to blame a defenseless group of the population for a lot of problems.  I am amazed at how easily people fall for this type of stuff, some of it I attribute to lack of intelligence and some to good "ole" racism.  SOME!

Put just as much effort in to penalizing the people who hire illegal immigrants and the jobs will dry up.  Reduce/Eliminate those jobs and you will greatly reduce the desire to come to this country illegally.

[westkoast]

Here's the real problem:  cheap immigrant labor undercuts unions.  Unions are pretty much a constituency the Democrats count on.  If the unions get involved in the debate, this could really become an issue where BOTH political parties alienate constituencies.

Good point but they are also alienating the Libertarian types who do not want to see government so far reaching.  I saw a statement from Republican Marco Rubio that echos what you are saying about the federal government but at the same time thinks that the wording is so horrible it leaves the door open for law enforcement to go too far.

To me the illegal immigrants  do not have the power because they do not control the flow of money.  That comes from the business owners and people who are cutting corners.  They are the ones NOT hiring a citizen.  The illegal immigrant isnt stealing the job.  The decision comes from the guy who will be paying the money.   No one ever says business owners who employ illegal immigrants are selling out their fellow Americans who could use those jobs right now.  I've never once heard the news media make mention of that.

[Reality]

will they be adding cheese to the swastikas?  Salsa?

Ok I tried to have an honest discussion with you but you are unable to do anything but scratch the service on any topic.

The cheese and swastikas comment was not directed at you.  Didn't you find any humor at all in using refries to paint/sculpt a swastika?
I realize you guys might want to have a serious discussion on this.

Solution?  And Laker Fan Dan will back me up on this, no misprint.  While all of you have and will continue to have valid points, you're looking at human governments to find a fair solution for all.  Has not, isn't, and never will happen.

[rickortreat]

I don't see what the problem is here. Either you are in this country legally or you aren't. The US like any country does have the right to decide who gets to come into the country and stay and who does not.

IF a foreigner wants to come to the US to make a living, than he can apply for citizenship.  IF you are here illegally, you are stealing public services and taking advantage of this society.  Meaning you are hurting American taxpayers.

This is not to defend the government or it's appalling behavior in this matter.  Politicians are scared of an angry response from latino's.  So they pay lip service to the problem and nothing changes, So there are more and more latino immigrants come to the US.

The problem is that Mexico is a basket case of a country and is not producing enough jobs to enable people to make a living, so they come to this county. There are a lot of countries that do a lousy job of taking care of their citizens or building a functioning society that gives people a chance to flourish. The US used to be good at this, but our business model of free market capitalism cannot compete against the Command model of Asia which is a combination between business and government finance and support.  Thousand of firms that used to employ people in the US are gone, killed off by an unfair playing field and a government that doesn't understand jack $hit about how to build or protect an economy.

What's absurd is that you have some Americans advocating that we open the borders and allow anyone who wants in, in. Either you are a loyal American or your just here for a job and to take what you can get and are loyal to your race as opposed to the country in which you are making a living!  This is a county for all races, and if Mexicans and other latinos coming over the border and their culture are so great, then why the hell are they all coming here?

Either we control the border or the US will become just like Mexico! That will really make all the immigrants who came here for a better life happy won't it!?

Arizona and the other border states feel the impact far more, but there are Mexians and Russians in a pizza shot right here in Phila. 5 will get you 10 that the Mexicans are here illegally.

I understand that everyone wants to be able to make a living, but rather that run to this country they should be working to fix their own!  Particularly at a time when the US is declining economically, the last thing we need is more people looking for jobs!

Close the border (a potential terror threat as well) and fix the immigration law.  Punish people who hire illegals and force the illegals to apply for American citizenship or force them out of the US.  It is unacceptable to allow criminals to come into this country which is what everyone who enters the US without a passport is doing.

As for the lawsuits, a Judge can refuse to hear the case.  Who has standing in the US to contest the law? 

[JoMal]

This really is not a topic where resolution is going to be found on a basketball forum, but there are some underlying issues of which you all should be aware:

1 - Illegals represent cheap labor. In other words, do not even bring up that they are taking jobs from existing citizens. Existing citizens will never do this labor at similar wages and that is that. And they would certainly not work as hard.

2 - Illegals can be taxed for their labor, but unlikely to take advantage of available services as much as some apparently think they do. In California, they are referred to as 'undocumented'. If they become 'documented' in some way, Immigration can find them.

3 - Because of their status as cheap labor, the industries that hire them can keep overall costs lower. Imagine how much some of our goods would cost with union wages behind them?

4 - While at any given point in time, there are millions of illegals in the United States, studies done here in California found that twenty years after arrival, roughly 2 percent are still living here. The rest have gone back home with the money they earned.

5 - Regardless of how bad the U.S. economy may appear to us, it still is better then 'Back There', whether 'Back There' is Mexico, Honduras, or Nicolodia. 

6 - Some kind of work program is what should be considered. The border watch has to guard against the Mexican Crime Sydicates now more then ever and being required to watch everyone crossing the border really prevents that. 

[Reality]

4 - While at any given point in time, there are millions of illegals in the United States, studies done here in California found that twenty years after arrival, roughly 2 percent are still living here. The rest have gone back home with the money they earned.

Source?
Not in SoCal.

[JoMal]

4 - While at any given point in time, there are millions of illegals in the United States, studies done here in California found that twenty years after arrival, roughly 2 percent are still living here. The rest have gone back home with the money they earned.

Source?
Not in SoCal.

It also should be noted that:

(Source: Public Policy Institute of California, JUNE 2008

CALIFORNIA IS HOME TO SEVERAL MILLION UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.
Although estimates of the undocumented immigrant population are imprecise, the best estimates suggest that California was home to about 2.8 million illegal immigrants in 2006. One‐fourth of the nation?s undocumented immigrants reside in California (about twice the state?s share of the nation?s overall population). In California and Arizona, undocumented immigrants constitute about 8% of the population, the highest concentration of illegal immigrants in the United States. However, most immigrants in California (about 70%) are either naturalized citizens or have visas.

(Note - Of these about 56,600 will eventually stay in California. Roughly that amounts to 1.13 million over twenty years. With dependents, it covers quite a few people regardless)

THE POPULATION OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS HAS GROWN RAPIDLY IN THE NATION ?
Over the past ten years, the number of undocumented immigrants in the nation has more than doubled, from about 5 million in 1996 to 11.6 million in 2006. During this period, the population of illegal immigrants has grown by more than 500,000 per year, accounting for 19% of the nation?s overall population growth.

? BUT GROWTH HAS SLOWED IN CALIFORNIA.
Recent estimates suggest that California?s undocumented immigrant population is increasing by about 50,000 per year compared to about 100,000 per year in the 1990s. Between 2000 and 2006, the illegal immigrant population grew 13% in California, less than one‐third the rate of growth in the rest of the nation. During this period, undocumented immigration has accounted for only 10% of the state?s overall population growth.

MOST UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE FROM LATIN AMERICA.
In California, nine of every ten undocumented immigrants are from Latin America ─ over half (65%) are from Mexico alone. Most of the remainder are from Asia, but even Europe is the origin of tens of thousands of illegal immigrants in California.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OFTEN LIVE IN FAMILIES WITH LEGAL U.S. RESIDENTS.
Men make up the majority of undocumented immigrants (54%). Most illegal immigrants (77%) live with family members, many of whom have legal status (typically, children born in the United States). Many undocumented immigrants eventually legalize their status.

ABOUT ONE IN ELEVEN WORKERS IN CALIFORNIA IS AN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT.
Undocumented immigrants tend to have low levels of education and thus work in low‐skill jobs. Although a majority of farm workers in California are illegal immigrants, most undocumented immigrants work in urban areas. In 2004, the leading industries of employment for illegal immigrants were manufacturing and leisure & hospitality.

MOST CALIFORNIANS FAVOR SOME FORM OF LEGALIZATION.
Two‐thirds of California adults think that illegal immigrants should be allowed to apply for work permits that would let them stay and work in the United States. An even larger majority (72%) think most illegal immigrants who have lived and worked in the United States for at least two years should be given a chance to keep their jobs and apply for legal status, while one‐quarter (25%) of Californians believe that these immigrants should be deported.

Note: No representative national or state surveys provide an accurate direct count of undocumented immigrants and their characteristics. The most credible estimates use a residual technique in which undocumented immigrant populations are estimated based on subtracting estimates of legal immigrants from estimates of all immigrants.
Sources: Pew Hispanic Center. Department of Homeland Security. National Agricultural Workers Survey. U.S. Census Bureau. Urban Institute. PPIC Statewide Survey, March 2008.

[JoMal]

From an additional article, published in June 2008 - same source:

CALIFORNIA?S IMMIGRANT POPULATION HAS INCREASED RAPIDLY IN RECENT DECADES.
Between 1970 and 2006, the number of California residents born abroad has increased more than fivefold, from 1.8 million to 9.9 million. Immigrants, or foreign‐born residents, include those who have become naturalized U.S. citizens.

ONE IN FOUR CALIFORNIANS IS AN IMMIGRANT, A HIGHER PROPORTION THAN IN ANY OTHER STATE.
The proportion of the state?s population that is foreign‐born is at its highest level since 1890. California has a much higher share of immigrants in its population than the United States as a whole (27% vs. 13%) or the state with the next highest share of immigrants, New York (22%). Another 22% of Californians have at least one immigrant parent.

MOST OF CALIFORNIA?S IMMIGRANTS ARE FROM LATIN AMERICA OR ASIA.
The vast majority of California?s immigrants (90%) are from Latin America (56%) or Asia (34%). California has sizeable populations of immigrants from dozens of countries. The leading countries of origin are Mexico (4.4 million), the Philippines (750,000), and China (659,000).

CALIFORNIA IS THE PRIMARY DESTINATION FOR IMMIGRANTS ENTERING THE UNITED STATES.
California is home to 27% of the nation?s immigrants, compared to only 10% of the nation?s U.S.‐born population. Although California is still the leading state of destination, its dominance has declined. Between 2005 and 2006, California received 17 percent of the immigrants arriving in the United States.

SIX CALIFORNIA CITIES HAVE MAJORITY IMMIGRANT POPULATIONS.
Immigrants represent a majority of citizens in six cities with populations of at least 60,000 residents: Union City, Alhambra, Daly City, Glendale, Santa Ana, and El Monte. Immigrants constitute at least 10% of the population in 36 of the state?s 58 counties. The counties with the highest percentages are Santa Clara (36%), San Francisco (36%), and Los Angeles (35%).

<For Los Angeles county, this amounts to an estimated 3,654,378 of its citizens being innigrants - most of whom are there legally.>

IMMIGRANTS IN CALIFORNIA ARE CONCENTRATED IN THE WORKING AGES.
Three of every four immigrants in California is between the ages of 25 and 64, compared to less than half (45%) of U.S.‐born residents in the state. Two of every five Californians between the ages of 25 and 44 is an immigrant.

<The previous study, from which I obtained my earlier information and now cannot find, indicated this fact as well. Most of the immigrants they found in California are in the working ages of 18-64 but a huge proportion were under 35. The numbers dramatically decline in older generations because they go home>

IMMIGRANTS ACCOUNT FOR A LARGE SHARE OF CALIFORNIA?S POPULATION GROWTH.
Immigration has directly accounted for 40% of the state?s population growth since 2000, with the rest of the state?s growth (60%) due to natural increase

<The actual figures are even a bit more noticeable - 62.4% and 37.6%>

Sources: Decennial censuses. American Community Survey. California Department of Finance.

[Reality]

Note: No representative national or state surveys provide an accurate direct count of undocumented immigrants and their characteristics. The most credible estimates use a residual technique in which undocumented immigrant populations are estimated based on subtracting estimates of legal immigrants from estimates of all immigrants.
Sources: Pew Hispanic Center. Department of Homeland Security. National Agricultural Workers Survey. U.S. Census Bureau. Urban Institute. PPIC Statewide Survey, March 2008.