Author Topic: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...  (Read 7052 times)

Offline RickyPryor

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I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« on: September 28, 2009, 08:30:39 AM »
http://my.nba.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5800031147

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090713194145AARK5iP



I see no one having us higher than 7th in the East...many say 8th...17th in the NBA...some have us no where to be seen.


I'm guessing most here will say we'll end up in 5th and maybe win a round?  I think we'll be battling mostly with Toronto and Atlanta for position in the 5-7 spots.




Offline rickortreat

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 01:56:50 PM »
The pundits are often wrong, and I think the Sixers will surprise them to the upside. Losing Miller but gaining Brand seems like a positive move to me.  Respect has to be earned though, and that they're are a lot of doubters out there says more about how they evaluate the Sixers as oppossed to who they really are.

To my mind. Brand, Iguodala and Young are well above average in terms of talent- at least top 10 players at their positions in the league. I don't think it's a reach to say that about Lou Williams as well and while I wouldn't say that about Sam he's still better than half the Centers in the NBA.

I expect the Sixers to win somewhere around 50 games, and maybe even better. While Orlando, Boston and Cleveland all made moves and went over the salary cap, it remains to be seen whether they have improved or not. I think Orlando is worse without Hedo, as he did a lot to open the floor for the others. I'm not convinced Boston is the same, as they've lost a few players from their Championship season and their stars are old. Shaq is old too, and Cleveland is still a flawed team.

Would it really be that much of a shock to find the Sixers contending this season? They beat Orlando twice with Hedo, without him they might win a series against the Magic.

I'm feeling pretty good about the Sixers chances and not without good reason.  No one can say that any of the teams ahead of them are more athletic, or faster. The writers may be giving these teams a pass, but they don't know anything. And few of them are strong analytical thinkers either!

What matters isn't what anyone projects now, but what actually happens during the season.

Offline Skates

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 06:59:15 PM »
I think this year could go better than I expect, but then again I don't expect a lot.  I expect a slow start and a strong finish, hopefully with an active off-season and big jumps by the young guys.  A first round playoff spot is expected, a playoff win is not, but I think the team really is moving in the right direction, not necessarily on a smooth path though.


Offline tk76-

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 10:46:50 PM »
This is what I have so far:

ESPN.com power rankings has them 9th in the East.
NBA.com power rankings has them 9th in the East.
Inside hoops power rankings has them 9th in the East.
Hoopsworld  power rankings has them 10th in the East.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastStandings
Composite prediction of 53 ESPN staff.  Sixers 39-43, tied for 7th with 3 teams.

There are some real wildcard teams like the Wiz who could win anywhere between 30-45 games depending on how their entirely injured team returns.

Personally I'm setting on 39 wins (slow start, fast finish as usual.)  But really uncertain, anything +/- 5 from there would not surprise me at all.  That means anywhere from 5th-11th seed is possible.  But I do expect things to get better over the next couple of years.  They may even finally get off to s strong start next year.

Should be an exciting year, if only for player development.  These guys will be in new roles/teams than prior years:

Lou, Iguodala, Thad, Brand, Jrue, Kapono, Carney, Speights, Smith, Green... so basically everyone will be having a year to watch how they respond to a new challenge.

Offline RickyPryor

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 07:09:23 AM »
I can't say I'm surprised by the disparity here (ie. Rick at 50+ wins...most others here and beyond at 40, give - or take - a few).

It's not unusual for Sixers fans to over-estimate what we've got.  I do it all the time myself.

The issue I have with this thread so far is Rick's assessment of our individual players.

Lou Wil a "top 10" point guard?  Can someone honestly declare Lou a "top 10" point guard before he even plays an NBA game starting at the position?  Who is he ahead of on this list?

Nash
Paul
Kidd
Williams
Baron Davis
Parker
Rose
Billups
Rondo
Arenas
Ellis
Heck, Andre Miller

Heck.  That's twelve right there before I just simply stopped thinking about it.  He isn't in the same hemisphere with ANY of these guys.  Please...if we're going to put this kid in this position...let's at least wait 30 games to see if he can play it.  We can start anointing him next year perhaps.  (Forgot one: Caldron.  That's 13.)

Perhaps just as egregious is naming Thad a "top 10" small forward.  Love the guy...and we at least know he's playing more of a natural position now than will be Lou Wil.  But where exactly does he fit into THIS list:

James
Carmelo
Caron
Artest
S. Jackson
Hedo
P. Pierce
Maggette
Richard Jefferson
Durant
Marion
Kirilenko
Peja
Rashard
Gerald Wallace
Josh Smith


...I'm at 16 without even consulting with an official list.  Probably forgetting a few.

And Brand?  The same Brand who's not played in two years?  He's miraculously back to a "top 10" PF?  Poof?  In my head I have many better, but the exercise of actually typing all the names has suddenly made me depressed.


Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2009, 11:37:03 AM »
I'd say that it's not clear that Baron Davis's sub-40% career shooting is better than Lou Will.  It's not clear that Monta Ellis is better than Lou Will considering he's basically the exact same player.  I'd say it's clear that Lou Will is a better player than Andre Miller, although maybe not as a PG.  But yeah, Lou Will is not a top 10 PG yet.

I'd definitely take Thad over Maggette, Marion, Kirilenko, Peja, and Josh Smith right now without question.  If you want to go by BV's adjusted +/-, Iguodala's been a top 5 player in the NBA, and Thad's been a top 10 player in the NBA.  By pretty much any measure, Iggy and Thad appear in the top players in the NBA (Thad usually falls closer to 20, but Iggy is always in the top 10).  If somebody else on the team steps up, the Sixers could very well be a 50 win team.  Eddie Jordan took a Wizards team with this kind of talent to 50 wins.  Nothing between 35 and 55 wins would surprise me this season.

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2009, 12:43:54 PM »
I've got to count myself among the skeptics for rickortreat's evaluation, here.

I do believe Iguodala is a top 10 SG, and I don't think it's too much of a reach to call Brand a top 10 PF - assuming he returns healthy.  But I can't in good conscience call Young or Williams top 10 at their position, especially in the case of Williams, where I can name BACKUPS who might top him on the list.  (Barbosa or Terry, anyone?)  Add to that some of the developing kids like Sessions.

Philadelphia is a *SOLID* team, that in all probability has a gaping hole at the point guard spot.  Playoff team?  Almost surely.  4 or 5?  No way.

The real question, in my mind, is how the team adapts to the new (and definitely improved) coaching they have.  Some players will be natural fits.  Others (especially Dalembert) will give Jordan fits.  But there's going to have to be improvement in passing and movement - even from players like Iguodala, who moves extremely well to begin with.

If Philadelphia addresses their need for a point guard - either by player development or player acquisition - and assimilates the offense, the key element is stretching Brand out for a few more years to allow the team to grow into their potential.  But this is still a young team in need of seasoning and leadership.  A 7 or 8 seed seems about right to me.

Joe

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Offline RickyPryor

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2009, 12:45:48 PM »
I'd say that it's not clear that Baron Davis's sub-40% career shooting is better than Lou Will.

Hmmm...yeah, I think I'll take Baron's 15/8 over Lou's 13/3 vs. the extra .02% FG percentage.  Oh, and the fact that Baron IS a point guard.


Lou Will is a better player than Andre Miller

Wow.  He's a better player than Miller? Really?  a- It's not close; b- We're comparing Lou to Andre at the POINT.  Only.  And that comparison is laughable.


I'd definitely take Thad over Maggette, Marion, Kirilenko, Peja, and Josh Smith right now without question. 

I'm not sure where to begin with this one.

Let's start here:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/265331-erick-blascos-top-30-small-forwards

...where he's ranked 21st.  Just ahead of Jarvis Hayes.


If somebody else on the team steps up, the Sixers could very well be a 50 win team. 

With all due respect, two or even three guys need to step up for us to improve by 10 games in the win column.  But, hey, this is the time of year to be optimistic I guess.

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2009, 12:57:39 PM »
Baron's a PG as much as Arenas or Lou is a PG.  Yes, he's a better player than Miller.  Miller was good on the fastbreak and good at contributing to his own stats.  He did not make anybody around him better (except on said fastbreak), nor did he ever play a lick of defense.  Lou carried the second team, and we really haven't seen him run the first team offense.  Andre is better than Lou at running the point on the fast break.  Everywhere else, they're equal, except on D, where Lou is clearly the better defender.  Quoting some random guy who uses no statistical backup makes your argument weaker, not stronger.  Give me a link to a statistical system that takes both offense and defense into account and shows that Thad isn't a great player and maybe I'll believe you.  That ranking just makes that guy look like an idiot. If either Brand returns to form or Lou turns into a star, AND Iggy and Thad keep up or improve their current production, we're a 50 win team.  If both step up, even better.

Offline RickyPryor

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2009, 01:03:55 PM »
Yes, he's a better player than Miller.  Miller was good on the fastbreak and good at contributing to his own stats.  He did not make anybody around him better (except on said fastbreak), nor did he ever play a lick of defense.  Lou carried the second team,

I guess we'll not agree is all.  I'll take Miller - a true top 10 PG in this league - to a kid who's not yet played the position...nor has shown any of the qualities necessary TO play the position.

I hate the 'make people better argument'.  It's used way too much and is silly, imo.  These guys are in the NBA; best in the world.  BUT I will say if Miller did ANYTHING it was to make others around him better.  Lou will be the absolute WORST at that "skill" of anyone you've ever seen.

And Lou is maybe the worst defender of anyone - in any professional sport - I've ever seen.

Can't get worse than that.


we're a 50 win team.  If both step up, even better.

I should probably just not say anything.

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2009, 01:06:24 PM »

And Lou is maybe the worst defender of anyone - in any professional sport - I've ever seen.


Lou's not even the worst defender named "Williams."  Never saw Walt Williams, did you?
Joe

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jemagee

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2009, 03:13:10 PM »
around 500 and a first round playoff loss...I see no reason to expect anything different from the past two seasons yes

Offline rickortreat

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2009, 05:07:04 PM »
Glad to see some input from others around here as the season starts up.

Thad and Igoudala are definitely in the top 10 at their positions or better. USA basketball had them in camp this summer. Those invites go to the best of the best as perceived by the Olympic staff.  You figure the top 2 or 3 make the team, and the ones in back of them are the other invitees.

Considering how poor the coaching has been the past two seasons, it is a wonder that Thad has developed as well as he has. Thad needs to be given the ball to be effective, and with a poor coach and a lazy Andre Miller at the point, Thad only got the ball on the fast break or as an afterthought on offense. With Eddie Jordan's offense he'll get touches AS PART OF THE OFFENSE!

Brand should be able to regain his form and be close to what he was. Most NBA power forwards aren't complete players, able to rebound, defend, block shots and score. Before his injury, Brand was all those things. Coming back from a separated shoulder and a torn achilles tendon does take time, and Brand is not a back-to the basket post up type of player. He needs to get the ball where he can work, and with Jordan he will get his looks, a strategy beyond the capacity of Cheeks or DiLeo. In other words Eddie will integrate Brand into the Sixers offense.

Lou Williams is a big question mark, but lets not forget who he's replacing. Andre Miller is the only player on the Blazer's roster to fail the opening of training camp up and down the floor run. He was a major reason why the Sixers got off to a slow start last season, he never comes into camp in shape, and he never plays defense. He's not known as a great passer either. All Miller did well was post up his man and draw fouls.

I can't say for certain if Lou can be effective as a point, but I do think he has the tools. A good handle, better speed and quickness, and he also learned the one good thing that Andre Miller did, drawing fouls.  I think by the end of the season he'll be a top 10 Point guard. Jason Kidd is done, was two seasons ago. Nash is also at the end of his career. Williams is a better player than Derek Fisher.  He's not a head case like Barron Davis, or an uncoachable like Rondo. He's not an egomaniac like Nate Robinson or a useless joke like Jason Williams. I'll grant that Derron Williams, Chris Paul and Jameer Nelson are better points, along with Tony Parker- although Tony isn't that great of a passer. And, I'll also agree that Billups and Rose and Arenas are better. Maybe Tyreke Evans will establish himself as better too, but I'd point out that Lou was picked out of high school, unlike all these others he's being compared to, and last season would have been his first had he gone to college. He has a lot more upside than most of you seem to think, and although I am very optimistic now at the begging of the season, he has shown the ability to disrupt another team's defense, which IMO is the most important ability to have as a point.

The Sixers have a much better bench than last season, getting rid of Reggie Evans and Donyell Marshall and Kareem Rush. Speights addeded pounds of muscle to his frame and won't get pushed off the block so easilly. Jason Smith is apparently back and ready to play. Even if Sam Dalembert doesn't come through, we won't have to play Brand at Center. Rodney Carney and Jason Kapono are better replacements that who they had. Jrue Holiday was a steal in the draft and has apparently shown some ability in camp.

The Sixers were a .500 team last season without Brand, and with Thad Young missing the last few weeks of the season, and most of you are picking them to be the same or worse, based on the idea that Lou Williams can't play the point as well as Andre Miller, and the assumption that Brand isn't going to contribute much to the team. I think both of those ideas are false and that it is far more likely that Lou, Thad and Iguodala will all be better players than they were last season, and Brand will make a positive difference in their offense.

Cheeks was a terrible coach, no discipline, (if the ex players are to be believed) no plan on offense, no structure. DiLeo was better but almost as bad. Jordan actually has a structured offense where players know where they're supposed to be, and if there not, they're going to hear it. This is a new thing for the Sixers and it should work wonders.

Without a good coach they are a .500 ball club based on their superior athleticism. With a good coach and the ability to score in the half court against the Boston's and Cleveland's puts them above .500 and gets Iguodala an All Star slot.

The fact that they get no respect from the media doesn't bother me, they keep picking Portland to do something in spite of Odom not doing anything and ignoring that the Sixers beat them everytime they face them! Why should they look hard at the Sixers when they didn't do anything last season and lost one of their top scorers? It would take real effort to recognize that the Sixers did a lot this summer to retool and to build on and add to what they achieved. That's a lot to ask from a national sportswriter, as though their predictions ever turn out right!

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2009, 05:15:09 PM »
I'll go with most of what rick just said, but I'll disagree with his assessment of Lou compared to the league.  He won't be better than Nash or Rondo, he'll be better than Arenas because Arenas' knees are still totally shot and he's already missing camp time, and I won't compare him to anybody drafted this year.  He'll be a middle of the pack PG, which is better than what we've gotten.

Miller is not a "top 10 true PG" in this league.  He couldn't even be bothered to attempt to play defense.  He was out of shape for the first 20 games of the season.  As soon as the fast-break game got slowed down, rather than looking to initiate the offense, he looked for his own shot.  I laugh at everybody who says that Andre Miller will make the Blazers better.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.

jemagee

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Re: I'll Tell Ya...We Get No Respect...
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2009, 05:17:21 PM »
Is Andre Miller even starting in Portland?  I don't think that'll help Portland for a variety of reasons.

I'm not sure Louis Williams qualifies as the best point guard on the sixers any more...I don't think he does...just more experienced than the best point guard right now.  I'd prefer that Jrue play his way up and Louis ends up back on the bench taking any minutes the sixers currently think Willie Green should get.

Lou as starting point guard is but one reason that I don't expect better than 500 this season - he's not a point...and he's not much of a passer - he does like to shoot though