Author Topic: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks  (Read 3870 times)

Offline ziggy

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Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« on: August 04, 2009, 10:52:26 PM »
This will be interesting.  This is going to be just as contentious as 1999.  I have a hard time seeing a hard cap, but also have a super-tax.  A hard cap means (to me at least) that you can't exceed the cap, so a super tax would be irrelevant.  A hard cap and guaranteed salaries don't go together.

Personally I would like to see the NBA aggressively go after guaranteed contracts.  This is my proposal.

A max deal is defined as a contract who's first year value is 25% of the salary cap.  The max length is 6 years for an unrestricted Bird FA, and 5 years for another teams FA, a non-Bird FA, or a restricted FA.  Max raise is 10.5% for your own FA, and 8% for another teams FA.

I would limit contract guarantees to as follows
Salaries in the first year at 25% of cap - up to 6 years in length but a max of 2 years guaranteed  ($13.75 million approx this year)
Salaries in the first year at 20% to 24.99% of cap - up to 6 years in length but a max of 3 years guaranteed  ($11 million approx this year)
Salaries in the first year at 15% to 19.99% of cap - up to 6 years in length but a max of 4 years guaranteed  ($8.25 million this year)
any contract for less that 15% of cap can be fully guaranteed.  Keep the rest of the FA provisions the same as presently (Bird rights, luxury tax, salary cap, etc).  Any of these contracts that a team wants out from under has a buyout of 50% of the next years salary to buyout the player, and the contract is over.  This will create more FA, give teams more salary cap flexibility, won't impact the pay of the best players, only the "pretenders", and won't impact the mid-level players at all.  This will increase the probability that the best players play in the NBA, and keeps marginal players from taking up scarce salary and roster spots from players more deserving.

The biggest problem with salaries is not Shaq, or Kobe, or LeBron or KG making $20+ million.  It is the massive salaries paid to Jermaine O'Neal, Steve Francis, Tracy McGrady, Raef LaFrentz, and Bobby Simmons when they are constantly hurt, and players like AI, Boris Diaw, Wally Szczerbiak, Erick Dampier, Kenyon Martin under-performing.  The mid-level deals for Ron Artest and the like are not the problem.

If you want the big bucks you take greater risk.



http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/08/04/aldridge.labor/
Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks

By David Aldridge, TNT Analyst
Posted Aug 4 2009 2:57PM

"Some teams are slitting their economic wrists." --NBA Commissioner David Stern, July, 2009

This was the Summer of Dichotomy in the NBA.

A lot of teams were active, and spent grandly. But individual players didn't get the huge paydays of years past.

The relative haves spent money like it was going out of style, going tens of millions of dollars above the luxury tax threshhold. But many more teams, for one reason or another, stood pat.

So, is the NBA, in this still-lagging economy, relatively speaking, okay? Or is it in dire economic trouble?

That question will serve as the backdrop for the beginning, on Tuesday, of negotiations between the league's special labor relations committee, and the National Basketball Players' Association on the next Collective Bargaining Agreement. The current CBA runs through the 2010-11 season, and the owners could extend it an additional year, but no one expects anything but a re-opening, and both sides have agreed to get talks started sooner rather than later in hopes of heading off a work stoppage/lockout in two years.

(I know. You don't want to read about labor talks, and I don't want to write about them. But the reality is that everything in the game -- including next summer's celebrated free agent class -- will be directly impacted by what the NBA and the union come up with, or don't come up with, in these talks. What follows is just a primer about the key issues that the owners and players will be arguing over in the months to come. It's like cold medicine. You have to take it every once in a while.)
Owners seek changes

Owners are adamant that the economic health of the game is in peril. Several teams lost millions of dollars, with ticket sales and advertising down across the league. The league's worst cases, like New Jersey, fell through the floor economically, with estimated losses at or near $10 million. Several other teams were just behind, "only" losing seven figures. And those numbers are multiplied in many cases when you factor in the losses suffered by owners in their other businesses during the recession.

The Kings' owners, the Maloof Family, own the Palms Casino in Las Vegas -- a city hit hard by the economic slowdown. Suns owner Robert Sarver had investments in transportation companies like Mesa Airlines, according to a source with knowledge of the Suns' business holdings, and do you know any airlines that made money last year?

"They lost a fortune. Hundreds of millions in losses," said a source who speaks regularly with many NBA owners and has extensive knowledge of many owners' portfolios.

NBA Commisioner David Stern said in Las Vegas during the NBA's Summer League last month that fewer than half of the teams in the league made money last season. During a Finals news conference, Stern projected losses of up to 10 percent of revenue next season. Additionally, Stern wrote in a memo to team owners last month that revenues next season could fall between 2 1/2 and 5 percent next season. Ultimately, all of this could lead (in a worst-case scenario) to a salary cap reduction to around $50 million and a luxury tax threshhold of $61 million for 2010. That would have a devastating impact on teams that are clearing cap room in order to make a run at one or more free agents from the LeBron James-Dwyane Wade-Chris Bosh-Joe Johnson class.

The owners, according to several sources, are looking for a rollback on the revenue guarantees to players. Currently, players are guaranteed 57 percent of all Basketball Related Income -- just about any money that comes from an NBA team, including ticket sales from all games (including exhibition and playoff games), broadcast rights to games, concessions and parking sales, merchandise, team sponsorships and beverage sale rights. In addition, players get 40 percent of the take from the sale of luxury suites and arena signage, and up to 50 percent of arena naming rights.

Owners want to reduce the players' split from 57 percent of BRI to somewhere around 50 -- and more than a few owners want a split in their favor. Either idea, union sources have told me over the past couple of months, is DOA.

With the caveat that a wish list at the beginning of negotiations is just that, and that both sides will certainly have some give in them before a new deal is done, the source with access to the owners says they have several other significant changes on their agenda going into the negotations, including:

? Implementing a hard cap. "A hard, hard cap," the source said. The NBA has operated with a "soft" cap since the implementation of the salary cap in 1984, with several kinds of exceptions allowed to either re-sign players already on a team's roster or to entice players from other teams to sign. These include the famous "Larry Bird" exception that allows a team to exceed the cap in order to re-sign its own player; the "mid-level" exception, starting with the average salary paid in a given season, and going out up to five years with annual eight percent raises; and the "bi-annual" exception, which teams can use every other year, and is generally used to help sign veteran players.

A hard cap, such as is used in the National Football League, would eliminate all exceptions. Teams would have a specific amount they could spend on salaries, and could not exceed it for any reason;

? Higher luxury taxes. A "supertax" that would basically double the luxury tax to $2 for every dollar a team exceeds the tax threshhold, from its current $1. The league tried to implement a supertax in the last negotiation with the players, but the union held firm against it, feeling it would have a devastating impact on free agency;

? Shrinking the gap between salary cap and tax threshhold. A smaller spread between the salary cap figure and the tax threshhold. Next year's cap is set at $57.7 million; the tax threshhold is $69.9 million.

For the past few months, Stern has spoken of trying to find an "appropriate divide" of revenue between players and owners. He says that in a recession as deep as this, no company is immune, including his, and that the players have to meet the owners halfway economically to find a joint solution.

"What we want to be able to talk to the players about is, these are the facts, here's where we are, this is where we have to get to," Stern said during the NBA Summer League in Las Vegas last month. "Let's work together on how we get to a workable system, which recognizes the risk that invested capital is at, which sometimes makes money, and sometimes loses money -- and most recently, it's been a losing situation. And the owners would like to see whether they can get out from under that situation."

But players, obviously, don't see such a desparate financial different picture.
The case of San Antonio

Take San Antonio, whose owner, Peter Holt, is chair of the league's negotiating committee with the players.

San Antonio is one of the league's smallest television markets, ranking 37th among U.S. NBA teams in television market as of Jan. 1, 2009, according to Nielsen's "people meter" data. But it's ninth-largest in population according to 2007 estimates, and houses the corporate headquarters of five Fortune 500 companies, including four in the top 176. Holt has never been a big spender; even through the Spurs' era of four championships in nine seasons, Tim Duncan was the only player who received anything close to a max contract.

Yet this summer, Holt okayed the trade for Richard Jefferson from Milwaukee, a transaction that will cost Holt $29 million more than if he had kept the expiring contracts of Bruce Bowen, Kurt Thomas and Fabricio Oberto (who were dealt for Jefferson). Jefferson is due $14.2 million this coming season and $15 million in 2010-11.

He spent the full mid-level exception on free agent Antonio McDyess, for three years and $15 million in guaranteed money. He coughed up another $1.3 million for center Theo Ratliff. Add in the salaries for rookies DeJuan Blair and Jack McClinton, and the Spurs' payroll for next season will be right around $80 million, which means Holt is on the hook for at least another $10 million in luxury tax payments if the current projected $69.9 million threshhold for next year is accurate.

Holt says there is a method to his seeming madness. Basically, the Spurs are loading up for two years -- which coincides with all but the final year of Tim Duncan's contract. By 2011-12, the Spurs will have just two players under contract -- Duncan and McDyess, and McDyess's deal is only partially guaranteed. San Antonio's time among the league's top spenders has an expiration date.

"In our case, lots of things over the years played out," Holt said in Las Vegas, when he was named chair of the committee. "I get credit, R.C. (Buford, the general manager), Pop (coach Gregg Popovich). But we lucked out on some deals, to be blunt with you. Then, we have an ownership group that's strong. No money has come out of that business, ever, or at least since 1993. So the debt on the Spurs is way down. And so we, as owners, have decided to give us a transition period, are willing to take some hits. But the main reason is that because we have such little debt on the business ... it gives you opportunties that in the past, we didn't have to take advantage of."

But Holt is not the only owner taking on short-term pain for a chance at a championship.
Others willing to pay up

Seven teams -- Boston, Cleveland, Dallas, the Lakers, Orlando, San Antonio and Utah -- will break the $80 million team salary mark next season, according to salary figures obtained by NBA.com. Each is subject to paying more than $10 million to their fellow owners in luxury taxes.

Three other teams -- Denver, New Orleans and Washington -- will pay $73-78 million in salary and $3-9 million in taxes. Houston and New York are likely tax payers, though it's possible they could get under the tax by trading one or more players without taking salaries back to get under the threshhold. A few other teams, like Chicago and Milwaukee, are teetering on the pay/don't tax pay precipice.

That's about half of the league that's near or above the tax threshhold. Not over the salary cap, which will be $57.7 million next season, a drop of nearly $1 million from the 2008-09 figure of $58.68 million. At or above the tax threshhold is supposed to be the last line of defense to keep owners from overspending. By comparison, last season seven teams paid the luxury tax.

The offseason spending spree is what Stern was talking about in the quote at the top of this story. But that's a different issue, the league says, from the need to get a more equitable split with the players.
Union makes its case

For its part, the union points out that players have already kicked in hundreds of millions of their own salary to owners, in the form of the "escrow" account system in which players committed to return 10 percent (going forward, just eight percent) of their salaries to owners if player salaries exceed a certain amount -- a guaranteed rebate, if you will -- to help owners cover revenue losses. According to CBA guru Larry Coon's blog, players gave back $204.9 million of their $1.69 billion in salaries and benefits to owners last year, which was $20 million more than they gave back in 2007-08.

How, then, the players ask, can owners cry poor mouth to the union, when so many of them are spending oligarch-style?

"The only answer I have for that is, we've done that for many years," Holt said with a laugh in Vegas. "They (the union) know it's coming, and we know it's coming. It'll be fine. I'm not worried about that part; I'm more worried about how these teams are going to survive, and how do we keep doing this?"

The union points out that it is the players who have given back in each of the most recent collective bargaining agreements with the owners. Their contracts have gone from seven years in length (six if they were signing with another team) in the old CBA to six (and five) in the current one. The maximum amount of their yearly raises have gone from 12.5 percent (10 percent if they were signing with another team) to 10.5 percent (and eight) in the current one. Signing bonuses have gone from up to 25 percent of the total of a player's contract to 20; domestic players can no longer enter the draft straight out of high school, now needing to be at least a year removed from high school (during which time they can play college basketball, play in the NBA's Developmental League or play abroad); the luxury tax is now in effect every season instead of just when player salaries exceed a certain percentage of BRI.

The players also point out that the league was able to increase its existing $1.7 billion line of credit from financial institutions JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America earlier this year, which gave teams access to lower-interest loans they could use to pay existing bills or otherwise improve their financial standing. Several teams took advantage of it, including Orlando, which is in the process of building a new arena that will open in the 2010-11 season.

Of course, owners would point out that the percentage of BRI guaranteed to players has gone from 48 percent of BRI in 1999 to its current 57 percent, among other concessions to the players. And owners will have to deal with their own internal splits between the haves and have-nots. Unlike the NFL, where the home and road teams split the gate revenue (roughly 60-40), NBA home teams take all of their gate revenue, after the league takes a cut off the top for league expenses. So a team such as the Lakers, which can charge thousands for courtside seats and has a huge local television rights deal, is going to have more cash and be in a different stratosphere from, say, Milwaukee or Minnesota.
Winning still the ultimate goal

It is easy, and tempting, to dismiss all of this as millionaires versus billionaires, especially when there are millions of people who don't have jobs, or access to health care, in cities like Detroit whose industries are on the brink of collapse. No argument. But the NBA, like the NFL, like Hollywood, like Broadway, like the Grand Old Opry, is an entertainment business. People go to games to take their minds off work and stress and trouble.

So, yes, nobody in this negotitaion is going to go hungry. But the competitive nature among teams is still strong. This summer's spending frenzy proves it. While the bartering between players and owners goes on behind closed doors, teams are still trying to win on the court. That has not changed. Yet.

"When you win, then the hook is set," Holt said. "And then when you get this close, it could be even worse. Every owner is so competitive -- and if you look at them, not only in basketball, but all of their other businesses. And then you get this close, you say, okay, I'll pay that money to get me over the hump. I think some of that is certainly going on."
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 09:13:39 AM »
These guys, owners and players have a pretty good thing going. But the players are being paid an ubsurd, excessive amount of money to play.  No one needs 20 mil a year or even 10. They talk about $1,000,000 as being a journeyman players salary.

It amazes me the owners gave up such a large percentage in the first place, but asking for a percentage back makes no sense. If the percentages worked right before, they should work right now.

The bottom line is fans and their willingness to provide the revenue.  Yes, they are an entertainment business, but that simply means they compete with other forms of entertainment. In a significant economic downturn people aren't going to opt for the most expensive item.  If most people can't afford to take their kids to the game, the NBA's fan base will degrade. The unwillingness for all teams to stay within the same money level  indicates how bad the problem is. Some teams, many in fact, have gone over the cap, spending more than they can afford at a time when revenues are declining. Thats no way to maintain a competitive league, and it's a good way to alienate fans in the smaller markets who are sick of seeing LA and Boston all the time. Who can blame them, knowing that their team is part of a league in which they cannot compete because of their fan base.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 10:35:32 AM »
These guys, owners and players have a pretty good thing going. But the players are being paid an ubsurd, excessive amount of money to play.  No one needs 20 mil a year or even 10. They talk about $1,000,000 as being a journeyman players salary.


They make a lot of money to you and me.  In comparision to this league, a guy like Lebron James is worth 18 million a year and it is a reasonable amount of money compared to what the team makes off him.  Just because you and I could and would play pro ball for 5 million a year doesn't mean Lebron James would or even should.  There is plenty of money being made and if it's not going to players who does it go to?  The owners/team.  Do teams need to make the money they do?  Where is the argument for that?  Unless you are saying the league should lower ticket prices, concession stand prices, parking, and merchandise.  Something that would NEVER happen.

I think the over paying of O'Foyle and Kwane Brown's of the world is more of a problem than a Lebron James making big bucks.  The team not only benefits from Lebron's skills but they sell tickets and jerseys on his back.  Their deal with the local networks would jump up a notch because watching Lebron James would help advertisers numbers.  Not to mention all the other small things that escape me.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:40:04 AM by westkoast »
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 12:57:17 PM »
They should roll back prices on everything if they want to expand or maintain their fan base.  And it is the LeBron's that are the problem, 20 mil means that everyone else on the team has to go begging or the team goes over the salary cap.

Who should get the money, the people who take the risk that's who. The people who put up the money and pay the salaries. The players are the workers, high-priced talent to be sure, but they have no risk at stake. If they put up the money and make the deals then they should get the lions share of the money!

What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

Offline westkoast

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 01:24:29 PM »
They should roll back prices on everything if they want to expand or maintain their fan base.  And it is the LeBron's that are the problem, 20 mil means that everyone else on the team has to go begging or the team goes over the salary cap.

That sounds like a great plan and I agree....except we live in America and in a capitalist society.  Lowering prices across the board would be great for their current fan base and could potentially grow it.  I know more families are prone to go to a baseball game than a basketball game because it tends to be much cheaper.  Not just ticket prices but also concession deals.  Dodger and Angel stadium run a lot of promotions like that.

Lebron making big money did not keep the Cavs from over paying for Wally did it?  His inflated contract they got in a trade (I believe) but it's not like that would be Lebron's fault.  Why would you hold an individual player accountable when most players shouldn't command the salaries they do but are offered them anyways.  There is no reason Wally should be making 9 figures a year.  Did KG's contract impact the Wolves from paying him more than he was worth?  Nope. 

Quote
Who should get the money, the people who take the risk that's who. The people who put up the money and pay the salaries. The players are the workers, high-priced talent to be sure, but they have no risk at stake. If they put up the money and make the deals then they should get the lions share of the money!

No risk?  What would you call injury?  They have a collective barganing agreement, they have a luxury tax that teams who do not go over benefit from....as far as risk, it is not quite as high as you want to make it out to be.  These are not small businesses that operate indepent from one another.  They are franchises under a bigger umbrella that help minimize risk to the best of their ability.  I am sure Zigs or someone else could elaborate and break this down more.  I am not the guy to do that.

Besides, risk is one thing and product/marketing are another.  There is literally no product with out the players.  That is how they are able to command a large portion of revenue.  If you take into consideration David Stern's push for the league to spend more time focusing in on individual stars rather than whole teams you would see that a Lebron is more than just a worker.  He is a driving force to get people in the seats.  He does much more than just put the ball in the hoop.  His 'image' draws people to the game.

At a car plant, a worker will make a car, and then it is someone elses job to get a consumer to sit in it.    The way this league is setup is not only does a Lebron James have to make the product but he also  helps sell it.  Case in point, who cared about the Cavs until Lebron James got up there?  No one.  Including you and me. 

Quote
What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

I can tell you off the top that Jerry Buss makes a lot more than Kobe Bryant does per year.  If you think that Tim Duncan makes more money than the owner of the Spurs, I think you are sadly mistaken.  Now even if the Spurs owner made the same amount as Duncan....he owns a 350 million dollar franchise.  He has a very large asset.  Not only does Jerry Buss make more money than Kobe Bryant, he is worth a lot more than Kobe Bryant because part of his worth is a HALF A BILLION DOLLAR franchise.

A businessman who knows that the number of people who can play this sport at a high level is very very limited.  If there was an abundance of quality basketball players then you would see the prices drop.  Since there is a shortage of workers who can fill these positions, the workers can command a higher salary.  That is how it works in the current job market.  Right now in IT, since there are so many out of work people who would actually work for a lesser than normal range, the price drops.  In my position, where the knowledge of the specific software used  and industry is very limited, I can command a higher salary.  There is less people fighting for my position and that gives the owner less leverage  in salary talks.  Same applies in the NBA.  The Lebron, Kobe, KG, Shaq's of the world are very rare and they are paid as such.  I think the problem lies in overpaying a Kwame Brown who there are hundreds of players who could do just as good or better than he does on the court.  Why pay Kwame Brown 40 million when you could pay another player 25 million to do the same?  If you didn't want to pay Lebron 20 million a year, who exactly would you get to replace what he brings?  You wouldn't so the team is at his mercy, not vice versa.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 01:33:08 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 03:49:15 PM »
What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

Most CEO's (employees) make more money than the owners (stockholders).  So I guess at least every business listed on the major stock exchanges.

Also there are several service industries where employee compensation as a whole exceeds 57% of revenues.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 03:50:49 PM by Lurker »
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Offline Reality

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 10:41:44 PM »
Not NBA but pro sports exerpt:

Those enjoying a Cowboys game from a luxury suite at the new stadium will have to shell out $90 for pizza and $66 for a 12-pack of domestic beer, reports Steven Sipple of the Lincoln Journal World.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-new-Dallas-Cowboys-Stadium-will-offer-90-pi?urn=nfl,180810

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 12:21:41 PM »
What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

Most CEO's (employees) make more money than the owners (stockholders).  So I guess at least every business listed on the major stock exchanges.

Also there are several service industries where employee compensation as a whole exceeds 57% of revenues.

CEO's rarely make more than the primary stockholders unless they are one in the same.  Even in the movie business the producer, who assembles the financing and hires for the project makes more than the stars in the movie.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2009, 12:24:48 PM »
They should roll back prices on everything if they want to expand or maintain their fan base.  And it is the LeBron's that are the problem, 20 mil means that everyone else on the team has to go begging or the team goes over the salary cap.

That sounds like a great plan and I agree....except we live in America and in a capitalist society.  Lowering prices across the board would be great for their current fan base and could potentially grow it.  I know more families are prone to go to a baseball game than a basketball game because it tends to be much cheaper.  Not just ticket prices but also concession deals.  Dodger and Angel stadium run a lot of promotions like that.

Lebron making big money did not keep the Cavs from over paying for Wally did it?  His inflated contract they got in a trade (I believe) but it's not like that would be Lebron's fault.  Why would you hold an individual player accountable when most players shouldn't command the salaries they do but are offered them anyways.  There is no reason Wally should be making 9 figures a year.  Did KG's contract impact the Wolves from paying him more than he was worth?  Nope. 

Quote
Who should get the money, the people who take the risk that's who. The people who put up the money and pay the salaries. The players are the workers, high-priced talent to be sure, but they have no risk at stake. If they put up the money and make the deals then they should get the lions share of the money!

No risk?  What would you call injury?  They have a collective barganing agreement, they have a luxury tax that teams who do not go over benefit from....as far as risk, it is not quite as high as you want to make it out to be.  These are not small businesses that operate indepent from one another.  They are franchises under a bigger umbrella that help minimize risk to the best of their ability.  I am sure Zigs or someone else could elaborate and break this down more.  I am not the guy to do that.

Besides, risk is one thing and product/marketing are another.  There is literally no product with out the players.  That is how they are able to command a large portion of revenue.  If you take into consideration David Stern's push for the league to spend more time focusing in on individual stars rather than whole teams you would see that a Lebron is more than just a worker.  He is a driving force to get people in the seats.  He does much more than just put the ball in the hoop.  His 'image' draws people to the game.

At a car plant, a worker will make a car, and then it is someone elses job to get a consumer to sit in it.    The way this league is setup is not only does a Lebron James have to make the product but he also  helps sell it.  Case in point, who cared about the Cavs until Lebron James got up there?  No one.  Including you and me. 

Quote
What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

I can tell you off the top that Jerry Buss makes a lot more than Kobe Bryant does per year.  If you think that Tim Duncan makes more money than the owner of the Spurs, I think you are sadly mistaken.  Now even if the Spurs owner made the same amount as Duncan....he owns a 350 million dollar franchise.  He has a very large asset.  Not only does Jerry Buss make more money than Kobe Bryant, he is worth a lot more than Kobe Bryant because part of his worth is a HALF A BILLION DOLLAR franchise.

A businessman who knows that the number of people who can play this sport at a high level is very very limited.  If there was an abundance of quality basketball players then you would see the prices drop.  Since there is a shortage of workers who can fill these positions, the workers can command a higher salary.  That is how it works in the current job market.  Right now in IT, since there are so many out of work people who would actually work for a lesser than normal range, the price drops.  In my position, where the knowledge of the specific software used  and industry is very limited, I can command a higher salary.  There is less people fighting for my position and that gives the owner less leverage  in salary talks.  Same applies in the NBA.  The Lebron, Kobe, KG, Shaq's of the world are very rare and they are paid as such.  I think the problem lies in overpaying a Kwame Brown who there are hundreds of players who could do just as good or better than he does on the court.  Why pay Kwame Brown 40 million when you could pay another player 25 million to do the same?  If you didn't want to pay Lebron 20 million a year, who exactly would you get to replace what he brings?  You wouldn't so the team is at his mercy, not vice versa.

And if there was no NBA their talent would mean bupkiss!  What happens when no one comes to the games? The players still get paid, but the owner looses money.  See their money is at risk, not the players. Therefore they should get more. How do you think the league would do with all these college dropouts trying to run things?

Offline westkoast

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2009, 12:37:27 PM »

And if there was no NBA their talent would mean bupkiss!  What happens when no one comes to the games? The players still get paid, but the owner looses money.  See their money is at risk, not the players. Therefore they should get more. How do you think the league would do with all these college dropouts trying to run things?

Right they still get paid because they are still playing.  If there was no players playing who would come to the games?  If a player gets injured on the court while playing for said owner they risk their career/future.  Losing money is one thing.  Having a career ending injury is another.  A franchise could turn around and make money in the league in the future.  A player having a career ending injury could not.  The players risk their career and the owners risk money.  The owners cannot find the talent to replace the players and the players make the entire game.  Looks to me like the players making a lot of the money makes perfect sense.

My argument to the 'they risk their money so they should get more' can easily be answered two ways

1) They have no product with out the players and with out guys like Lebron James they also lose their ability to market their franchise to the masses

2) This is not a regular commodity business and I think that is how you are looking at this.  You cannot easily get rid of NBA players for just anybody and still have the quality of the product be high.  It's not like a company that if you get rid of one employee there are thousands of potential replacements across the country that could do just as good if not better making that same product.  There are not even a thousand basketball players in the league.  Not even everyone in the league should be there! 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 12:39:20 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2009, 01:02:40 PM »
What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

Most CEO's (employees) make more money than the owners (stockholders).  So I guess at least every business listed on the major stock exchanges.

Also there are several service industries where employee compensation as a whole exceeds 57% of revenues.

CEO's rarely make more than the primary stockholders unless they are one in the same.  Even in the movie business the producer, who assembles the financing and hires for the project makes more than the stars in the movie.

So the producers of box office bombs make more money than the stars?

You honestly believe that the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies (being paid in the hundreds of millions) are making less than stockholders?  I would bet that Gates' salary from Microsoft exceeds his dividend income.


Just another sign, rick, that your economic acumen is subject to questioning.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2009, 01:09:51 PM »
What kind of a businessman sets up a business where the workers make more than he does?

Most CEO's (employees) make more money than the owners (stockholders).  So I guess at least every business listed on the major stock exchanges.

Also there are several service industries where employee compensation as a whole exceeds 57% of revenues.
yeah rt, as told like only an accountant can, the poor owners in some cases don't even draw as much *salary* as the CEO.  
Let the pity party begin.  ::) :D :D

NBA Team Valuations
12.03.08, 06:00 PM EST

Rank   Team   Current Value1 ($mil)   1-Yr Value Change (%)   Debt/Value3 (%)   Revenue4 ($mil)   Operating Income5 ($mil)
1    New York Knicks   613    1    0    208    29.6
2    Los Angeles Lakers   584    4    22    191    47.9
3    Chicago Bulls   504    1    11    165    55.4
4    Detroit Pistons   480    1    0    160    40.4
5    Cleveland Cavaliers   477    5    42    159    13.1
6    Houston Rockets   469    1    15    156    31.2
7    Dallas Mavericks   466    1    26    153    -13.6
8    Phoenix Suns   452    1    39    148    28.9
9    Boston Celtics   447    14    40    149    20.1
10    San Antonio Spurs   415    3    13    138    19.0
11    Toronto Raptors   400    7    40    138    27.7
12    Miami Heat   393    -6    43    131    -1.1
13    Philadelphia 76ers   360    -5    18    116    0.3
14    Utah Jazz   358    5    3    119    8.8
15    Washington Wizards   353    2    47    118    14.9
16    Sacramento Kings   350    -9    24    117    7.0
17    Orlando Magic   349    8    29    100    6.2
18    Golden State Warriors   335    8    22    112    14.2
19    Denver Nuggets   329    3    14    112    -26.3
20    Portland Trail Blazers   307    21    34    114    -0.9
21    Atlanta Hawks   306    7    23    102    6.7
22    Indiana Pacers   303    -9    16    101    -6.5
23    Minnesota Timberwolves   301    -2    17    100    -5.7
24    Oklahoma City Thunder   300    12    47    82    -9.4
25    Los Angeles Clippers   297    1    0    99    10.7
26    New Jersey Nets   295    -13    71    98    -0.9
27    Memphis Grizzlies   294    -3    51    95    -3.2
28    New Orleans Hornets   285    5    35    95    3.2
29    Charlotte Bobcats   284    -1    53    95    -4.9
30    Milwaukee Bucks   278    5    20    94    5.4

Offline Lurker

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2009, 02:23:46 PM »

NBA Team Valuations
12.03.08, 06:00 PM EST

Rank   Team   Current Value1 ($mil)   1-Yr Value Change (%)   Debt/Value3 (%)   Revenue4 ($mil)   Operating Income5 ($mil)
1    New York Knicks   613    1    0    208    29.6
2    Los Angeles Lakers   584    4    22    191    47.9
3    Chicago Bulls   504    1    11    165    55.4
4    Detroit Pistons   480    1    0    160    40.4
5    Cleveland Cavaliers   477    5    42    159    13.1
6    Houston Rockets   469    1    15    156    31.2
7    Dallas Mavericks   466    1    26    153    -13.6
8    Phoenix Suns   452    1    39    148    28.9
9    Boston Celtics   447    14    40    149    20.1
10    San Antonio Spurs   415    3    13    138    19.0
11    Toronto Raptors   400    7    40    138    27.7
12    Miami Heat   393    -6    43    131    -1.1
13    Philadelphia 76ers   360    -5    18    116    0.3
14    Utah Jazz   358    5    3    119    8.8
15    Washington Wizards   353    2    47    118    14.9
16    Sacramento Kings   350    -9    24    117    7.0
17    Orlando Magic   349    8    29    100    6.2
18    Golden State Warriors   335    8    22    112    14.2
19    Denver Nuggets   329    3    14    112    -26.3
20    Portland Trail Blazers   307    21    34    114    -0.9
21    Atlanta Hawks   306    7    23    102    6.7
22    Indiana Pacers   303    -9    16    101    -6.5
23    Minnesota Timberwolves   301    -2    17    100    -5.7
24    Oklahoma City Thunder   300    12    47    82    -9.4
25    Los Angeles Clippers   297    1    0    99    10.7
26    New Jersey Nets   295    -13    71    98    -0.9
27    Memphis Grizzlies   294    -3    51    95    -3.2
28    New Orleans Hornets   285    5    35    95    3.2
29    Charlotte Bobcats   284    -1    53    95    -4.9
30    Milwaukee Bucks   278    5    20    94    5.4


As usual your contribution comes in as pretty much worthless.  No support.  And no definition of terms.  What is operating income?

But using your numbers...how many players PAID thier teams to play last year.  As many as the 13 teams that made less than the MLE? 

Or maybe we should look at the 21 teams that made less than $15 million.  How many players make more than $15 million?

Or maybe you could use your great research skills to find out how many of those teams have single owners and how many have ownership groups.  A $30 mil "operating income" sounds good until you realize it is split 10 ways.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2009, 05:39:15 PM »


As usual your contribution comes in as pretty much worthless.  No support.  And no definition of terms.  What is operating income?

But using your numbers...how many players PAID thier teams to play last year.  As many as the 13 teams that made less than the MLE? 

Or maybe we should look at the 21 teams that made less than $15 million.  How many players make more than $15 million?

Or maybe you could use your great research skills to find out how many of those teams have single owners and how many have ownership groups.  A $30 mil "operating income" sounds good until you realize it is split 10 ways.

Only 22 NBA players make 15.5 million or more in the NBA.  HALF of them because teams severely overpaid for them (Michael Redd, AK47, Kenyon Martin, Zach Randolph, Rashard Lewis) .  How that is the players fault, I do not know....

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Several issues will come to head during the NBA labor talks
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 05:52:55 PM »


As usual your contribution comes in as pretty much worthless.  No support.  And no definition of terms.  What is operating income?

But using your numbers...how many players PAID thier teams to play last year.  As many as the 13 teams that made less than the MLE? 

Or maybe we should look at the 21 teams that made less than $15 million.  How many players make more than $15 million?

Or maybe you could use your great research skills to find out how many of those teams have single owners and how many have ownership groups.  A $30 mil "operating income" sounds good until you realize it is split 10 ways.

Only 22 NBA players make 15.5 million or more in the NBA.  HALF of them because teams severely overpaid for them (Michael Redd, AK47, Kenyon Martin, Zach Randolph, Rashard Lewis) .  How that is the players fault, I do not know....

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm


But that other half also includes Kobe, Duncan, James, KG, Wade, Dirk, Amare, Pierce, Gasol...

So look at teams with more than $15 mil...I think they have some players with $15 mil salaries.  Celtics have 3 on the list.  Lakers have 2.  Many others have 1.  So it isn't all salaries...and the cap/tax system has helped keep salaries down. 

I'm not necessarily agreeing with either side.  I just want to keep the discussion going.  The owners...based on Reality's data...should also look into more revenue sharing.  Without knowing what is "operating income" it is difficult to tell what an owner (group) really is making.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues