Possible sign and trade of Marion to the Mavs.

[WayOutWest]

What do you guys think?  How much will this help/hurt the Mavs?  Seems like they are not giving anything up to get him, so they could have Kidd/Gortat/Marion on board next season.  Does this make them a contendor?  Where would you guys rank the Mavs after this move?  IMO it would put them in 3rd place, tied or ahead of the Spurs but behind the Nuggets.  Still waiting on the Thuggets to implode and become fodder.

Updated: July 8, 2009, 6:42 PM ET

Sources: Mavs would get Marion

It appears that the Dallas Mavericks and Toronto Raptors have successfully recruited the Memphis Grizzlies to help them complete a trade that would eventually route free-agent swingman Shawn Marion to the Mavericks, according to NBA front-office sources.

Yet sources told ESPN.com that the deal, while very far along, has not been finalized and was unlikely to be completed before Thursday at the earliest, with the trade potentially including a fourth team in its final form.

The Mavericks' interest in a sign-and-trade deal for Marion emerged Tuesday but requires Dallas and Toronto to find at least one more team to facilitate the trade because the Raptors can't waive Stackhouse without incurring an extra $2 million in payroll for next season, which would slice into the cap space they have earmarked to sign prized free agent Hedo Turkoglu away from Orlando.

But the Grizzlies' participation would involve Memphis absorbing Stackhouse's $7.25 million contract and buying him out for $2 million before the Aug. 10 deadline in Stackhouse's contract. It's believed that the trade will stipulate that Dallas pays that $2 million to the Grizzlies to cover that expense.

It was not immediately clear what kind of contract Marion will receive from the Mavericks if the deal goes through, but the leaguewide consensus is that Dallas is his best and perhaps last remaining option to get a starting salary next season above the $5.9 million mid-level exception.

Although Raptors president Bryan Colangelo drafted Marion in Phoenix in 1999 and wants to help the former All-Star if he can, sources say Toronto is only interested in taking back draft considerations and/or cash to avoid getting in the way of its Turkoglu signing. In the midst of negotiations with Marion on a four-year contract believed to be worth $36 million late last week, Toronto managed to change Turkoglu's mind at the 11th hour and convince its No. 1 free-agent target to come to Canada for a five-year deal in excess of $50 million instead of signing with the Portland Trail Blazers.

If a fourth team ultimately joins in that would mean that the trade is expanding to involve other players. The main thrust of the deal, though, remains Dallas landing Marion at what would be considered a favorable price and Marion getting a contract that starts slightly higher than the mid-level exception.

Dallas is hoping that the combination of Marion and Orlando restricted free agent Marcin Gortat -- along with the re-signing of Jason Kidd -- would greatly improve the depth and flexibility possessed by a team that won 50 games last season and advanced to the second round of the playoffs before losing to Denver.

Mavs owner Mark Cuban has said for months that he was prepared to be as aggressive as possible this summer as opposed to waiting for the free-agent bonanza of 2010, when Dallas was initially expected to have substantial cap space. Orlando retains the right to match any offer sheet to Gortat but the Magic are widely expected not to match.

Sources say that the Mavericks, meanwhile, are determined to keep Josh Howard even if a trade for Marion can be worked out, with Howard entering the final year of his contract. One potential drawback for Dallas is the fact that Marion would be yet another key member of their core over the age of 30, joining Nowitzki (31), Kidd (36), Jason Terry (31) and Howard (who turns 30 next April).

Marion earned $17.8 million last season and was traded for the second straight February when Miami sent him to Toronto in a swap for Jermaine O'Neal. He went from Phoenix to Miami one year earlier in the Shaquille O'Neal trade.

The Raptors were intent on re-signing Marion if they couldn't win the Turkoglu sweepstakes, seeing late-season signs of promise in Marion's collaboration alongside Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani. Sources say that the Cleveland Cavaliers, despite their recent pursuits of Trevor Ariza and Ron Artest and a well-chronicled need for a combo forward, are not making a hard push for Marion.

Marc Stein is a senior NBA writer for ESPN.com.

[SPURSX3]

The Mavs are on crack...

[Joe Vancil]

This is a great move by the Mavericks, but I'm not sure it helps them in the right ways.  There's still a gaping hole at center, and in a conference with the following front-courts:

 a) Bynum-Gasol-Odom
 b) Duncan-McDyess-Bonner
 c) Okur-Boozer-Millsap-Kirilenko
 d) Hilario-Anderson-Martin
 e) Yao (if healthy) - Scola
 f) Chandler-West

Even Randolph-Gasol-Thabeet can muscle the Dallas guys around.

Isn't Nowitzki-Marion-Gortat (if they get him)-Dampier still very dependant on whether Nowitzki goes to the goal or decides to shoot jumpers?

You've still got one too many point guards - Kidd, Terry, and Barea - and one too few 2-guards with the athletic ability to guard 2-guards - I'm still trying to come up with even one.  Couldn't you have tried to rob Milwaukee of Redd and Bogut while they were having their fire sale?

And does this mean they've given up on Brandon Bass?

The problem is the reliance on Jason Terry.  They need some size to play that 2-guard spot.  It's a whole lot easier for a 6-7 guy to block a 6-0 guy than a 6-0 guy to block a 6-7 guy.  But without Terry, you don't have that needed offensive punch....

They've got a puncher's chance, because they're loaded with talent.

As for Denver, I still believe that's a team of smoke and mirrors.  What I saw in the playoffs did little to convince me otherwise.  It's just that their coach happens to be a smoke-blowing mirror-master.  I think he got everything he could out of the talent he had;  I don't see that keeping them at their spot, but for all I know, George Karl breaks out a Jo-bu statue and they keep doing what they did.

Utah kept all their guys.  Let's see if any of them brought their balls with them this year.  (Apologies to Harpring, Millsapp, and Williams.)  Barkley said it best - it says something when the toughest guy on your team is the coach.

No need to even mention San An (assuming Ginobilli's reasonably healthy and Duncan remains Duncan) or the Lakers.  They're in, and better than Dallas.

Houston will rise and fall off of Yao Ming's health.  New Orleans will be better.  Portland will be a year more seasoned.  I think Dallas is safely in the playoffs, but it's still that puncher's chance for how far they go.

[westkoast]

I was thinking the same thing Joe, so how do these guys get shots if Dirk is not getting to the rim and kicking?  Dallas is already mainly a jump shooting team with very little presence in the paint.  So they add another jump shooter?

Btw I thought Kidd bolted to New York or is on his way?  If he does that shoots down my idea to run pick and roll with Kidd/Marion which could be a very effective play for them. 

[Joe Vancil]

I don't see how that's effective;  you double Marion on the roll and dare Kidd to shoot.

Kidd was rumored on the Knick wish list, but I heard he re-signed with Dallas.  And that's a better move for him.

[westkoast]

I don't see how that's effective;  you double Marion on the roll and dare Kidd to shoot.

Kidd was rumored on the Knick wish list, but I heard he re-signed with Dallas.  And that's a better move for him.

Kidd can be effective taking shots (at times) and if you double on Marion that leaves someone else open does it not?  We are talking about Jason Kidd a hall of fame point guard not just some scrub at the 1.  He will make a play if you try to double Marion.

How would running the pick and roll with a guy who is very good at it not better than kicking it out to him for some weird looking 3?

[Lurker]

I don't see how that's effective;  you double Marion on the roll and dare Kidd to shoot.

Kidd was rumored on the Knick wish list, but I heard he re-signed with Dallas.  And that's a better move for him.

Kidd can be effective taking shots (at times) and if you double on Marion that leaves someone else open does it not?  We are talking about Jason Kidd a hall of fame point guard not just some scrub at the 1.  He will make a play if you try to double Marion.

How would running the pick and roll with a guy who is very good at it not better than kicking it out to him for some weird looking 3?

Kidd was effective last year as a spot up shooter.  Terry is better for running the pick & roll. 

Kidd brings the transition game better than any other pg but even in that he is throwing more long passes to get the ball up court.  You just can't beat his court vision and ability to put the ball where the receiving player can do something with it.  But in the half court Dallas relies on Dirk/Terry to initiate the offense.  Barea also showed some ability near the end of the season & in the playoffs...to the point that he was on the court with Kidd for several stretches.  Kidd also defends against the other team's slower guard as quickness just kills him.

BTW I think Orlando matches on Gortat.  Otherwise they are thin up front.

[westkoast]

I don't see how that's effective;  you double Marion on the roll and dare Kidd to shoot.

Kidd was rumored on the Knick wish list, but I heard he re-signed with Dallas.  And that's a better move for him.

Kidd can be effective taking shots (at times) and if you double on Marion that leaves someone else open does it not?  We are talking about Jason Kidd a hall of fame point guard not just some scrub at the 1.  He will make a play if you try to double Marion.

How would running the pick and roll with a guy who is very good at it not better than kicking it out to him for some weird looking 3?

Kidd was effective last year as a spot up shooter.  Terry is better for running the pick & roll. 

Kidd brings the transition game better than any other pg but even in that he is throwing more long passes to get the ball up court.  You just can't beat his court vision and ability to put the ball where the receiving player can do something with it.  But in the half court Dallas relies on Dirk/Terry to initiate the offense.  Barea also showed some ability near the end of the season & in the playoffs...to the point that he was on the court with Kidd for several stretches.  Kidd also defends against the other team's slower guard as quickness just kills him.

BTW I think Orlando matches on Gortat.  Otherwise they are thin up front.

And that's a mistake on the Mavs part.  Kidd's decision making is what I am talking about.  Not really which situation he thrives in.  You are right, he is better in the open court, but the ability to make the right DECISION to make the pass is still there.  I much rather have the ball in the hands of my PASS FIRST point guard than shoot first Terry.  They already depend on him too much as it is.

[Joe Vancil]

The problem is that if you double the receiver on the pick and roll with the ball-handler's man, then you force the point guard to beat you with the jumper.  Good pick-and-roll point guards have to have that reliable jumper to make teams pay for doubling the roll man.  Terry has that jumper - double team the roll man, and Terry lights you up.  Ditto with Nash, or Stockton.

Not so much, with Kidd, although he's improved as the years have gone on.

Now Kidd can get away with doing pick-and-pop with Nowitzki, because pick-and-pop clears the lane for Kidd to drive into.  But Marion won't pop;  Marion will roll.  That means the lane isn't open, which means that Kidd would be shooting jumpers.

The idea behind defending pick-and-roll is that you trap (double-team) small, bad passers and you double-team roll men against bad shooters.  For defending pick-and-pop, you deny the lane against good drivers, and you jump the passing lane off the ball against good shooters.  If you've got a point guard who is a good shooter, a good driver, AND a good passer - say Nash or Stockton - and they have a player who can roll OR pop - like Nowitzki, and to lesser extents, Webber and Malone - you've got a defensive nightmare.

The Mavericks use Terry because he's a better passer than Kidd is a shooter.

[westkoast]

The problem is that if you double the receiver on the pick and roll with the ball-handler's man, then you force the point guard to beat you with the jumper.  Good pick-and-roll point guards have to have that reliable jumper to make teams pay for doubling the roll man.  Terry has that jumper - double team the roll man, and Terry lights you up.  Ditto with Nash, or Stockton.

Not always.  The ball handler does not have to take the jumper.  He can make his way towards the rim  or even just move himself into an open spot on the floor to get a player to commit if he wants to and try to create opportunities.   While Kidd is not exactly a high flyer or a big time finisher if he makes a move towards the rim it can create other opportunities.  Especially with a number of NBA players (Lakers come into my head right away) feel the need to always help when another player goes by them.  This allowed Chauncey Billups to get the ball to a Kleiza for an open 3 over and over in the series.

To me, there is not enough GOOD defensive teams or individual defenders to where they would be able to get away with doubling Marion each time and giving Jason Kidd a free pass to do what he wants.  In theory you are right.  From an X's and O's standpoint that is how you would do it.  The problem is I don't think a lot of players focus in enough on the defensive end to really execute this strategy on a consistent basis.  Heck I don't know if some coaches are even keen enough to make the right adjustment.  We saw how well Mike Brown did making defensive adjustments against Orlando....

[Joe Vancil]

The problem is that if you double the receiver on the pick and roll with the ball-handler's man, then you force the point guard to beat you with the jumper.  Good pick-and-roll point guards have to have that reliable jumper to make teams pay for doubling the roll man.  Terry has that jumper - double team the roll man, and Terry lights you up.  Ditto with Nash, or Stockton.

Not always.  The ball handler does not have to take the jumper.  He can make his way towards the rim  or even just move himself into an open spot on the floor to get a player to commit if he wants to and try to create opportunities.   While Kidd is not exactly a high flyer or a big time finisher if he makes a move towards the rim it can create other opportunities.  Especially with a number of NBA players (Lakers come into my head right away) feel the need to always help when another player goes by them.  This allowed Chauncey Billups to get the ball to a Kleiza for an open 3 over and over in the series.

The idea behind pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop is to create space - space to pass in, or space to shoot in.  In order to do that, if the pick man rolls, then you don't want the point guard driving, because it infringes upon the created space.  And if the pick man pops, then you want your ball-handler driving.  Trust me on this one;  I know what happens when I'm teamed with a person who prefers to pop (with me not being an effective driver any more).  One man goes to the goal, and the other spots up - or the play can be defended easily.

[westkoast]

The problem is that if you double the receiver on the pick and roll with the ball-handler's man, then you force the point guard to beat you with the jumper.  Good pick-and-roll point guards have to have that reliable jumper to make teams pay for doubling the roll man.  Terry has that jumper - double team the roll man, and Terry lights you up.  Ditto with Nash, or Stockton.

Not always.  The ball handler does not have to take the jumper.  He can make his way towards the rim  or even just move himself into an open spot on the floor to get a player to commit if he wants to and try to create opportunities.   While Kidd is not exactly a high flyer or a big time finisher if he makes a move towards the rim it can create other opportunities.  Especially with a number of NBA players (Lakers come into my head right away) feel the need to always help when another player goes by them.  This allowed Chauncey Billups to get the ball to a Kleiza for an open 3 over and over in the series.

The idea behind pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop is to create space - space to pass in, or space to shoot in.  In order to do that, if the pick man rolls, then you don't want the point guard driving, because it infringes upon the created space.  And if the pick man pops, then you want your ball-handler driving.  Trust me on this one;  I know what happens when I'm teamed with a person who prefers to pop (with me not being an effective driver any more).  One man goes to the goal, and the other spots up - or the play can be defended easily.

You do, we established that.  The question is do most NBA players?  I don't know.  I see them make silly defensive mistakes often.

If Marion sets a pick at the top of the key for Kidd then moves to the rim taking two defenders with him there is a large pocket of space for Kidd to move into to force other defenders to commit to him.  With his passing ability and vision he will make plays.  If they don't double Marion then he has a guy who is very good at receiving the pass and finishing it.  If Steve Nash can make those passes I think Jason Kidd should be able to as well.

[WayOutWest]

You do, we established that.  The question is do most NBA players?  I don't know.  I see them make silly defensive mistakes often.

If Marion sets a pick at the top of the key for Kidd then moves to the rim taking two defenders with him there is a large pocket of space for Kidd to move into to force other defenders to commit to him.  With his passing ability and vision he will make plays.  If they don't double Marion then he has a guy who is very good at receiving the pass and finishing it.  If Steve Nash can make those passes I think Jason Kidd should be able to as well.

I guess I don't get what you're debating regarding Kidd.  The reason the pick and roll works is because you have to defend the dribbler as a double threat, drive and shoot.  Passing is key but not critical in a pick-n-roll.  Defending a guy like Kidd would be as simple as going under the screen and play him for the drive each time.  That way there is no switching and no double teaming.  IMO the pick-n-roll will not work because Kidd is not a consistent threat from the outside.  They don't even run the pick-n-pop for Kidd and Dirk, they run it with Terry and Dirk for that same reason, Kidd is not a double threat to shoot and drive.

Just won't work with Kidd.

[westkoast]

You do, we established that.  The question is do most NBA players?  I don't know.  I see them make silly defensive mistakes often.

If Marion sets a pick at the top of the key for Kidd then moves to the rim taking two defenders with him there is a large pocket of space for Kidd to move into to force other defenders to commit to him.  With his passing ability and vision he will make plays.  If they don't double Marion then he has a guy who is very good at receiving the pass and finishing it.  If Steve Nash can make those passes I think Jason Kidd should be able to as well.

I guess I don't get what you're debating regarding Kidd.  The reason the pick and roll works is because you have to defend the dribbler as a double threat, drive and shoot.  Passing is key but not critical in a pick-n-roll.  Defending a guy like Kidd would be as simple as going under the screen and play him for the drive each time.  That way there is no switching and no double teaming.  IMO the pick-n-roll will not work because Kidd is not a consistent threat from the outside.  They don't even run the pick-n-pop for Kidd and Dirk, they run it with Terry and Dirk for that same reason, Kidd is not a double threat to shoot and drive.

Just won't work with Kidd.

I am saying just because you double Marion doesn't mean that it's going to completely break the offense down on that play.  I think having Kidd and Marion in a pick and roll situation at times (I did not say bread and butter) can be beneficial.  It gives them another play to run that they could not have ran before.  Marion is good at taking a pass in the paint and finishing.  He is also good at catching lobs.

Jason Kidd shoots 42% from the field for his career.  While that is not great numbers, a wide open shot is still a good look and Kidd can knock them down.  Is he Ray Allen?  No, obviously not.  Is an open look with space still a good shot to take? Yes.  If they DON'T double, which I have a feeling they won't every time since I don't think this should or would be a bread and butter play, then you have a guy who can make the right pass to Marion in the lane for a slam.  Also take in mind that Jason Kidd himself admitted that he needs to work on his jumper a bit more because teams are giving him those looks during the season last year (it was after a game in which he did not shoot well)

Again, I never said it would be a bread and butter play.  It is a play that they can utilize to switch things up.  I don't give enough credit to most teams to be on alert that as soon as Marion sets a screen for Jason Kidd you don't fight through it.  If guys don't defend plays out of huddles when they are told exactly what is going to happen I doubt that the doubling of Marion and the sitting of screens happens because the players know exactly what to do AND execute that.

[WayOutWest]

I am saying just because you double Marion doesn't mean that it's going to completely break the offense down on that play.  I think having Kidd and Marion in a pick and roll situation at times (I did not say bread and butter) can be beneficial.  It gives them another play to run that they could not have ran before.

Jason Kidd shoots 42% from the field for his career.  While that is not great numbers, a wide open shot is still a good look and Kidd can knock them down.  Is he Ray Allen?  No, obviously not.  Is an open look with space still a good shot to take? Yes.  If they DON'T double, which I have a feeling they won't every time since I don't think this should or would be a bread and butter play, then you have a guy who can make the right pass to Marion in the lane for a slam.

wk, my point is that play will never develop, you will never put a team in a situation where they have to make a critical decision on defense.  Any time the pick and roll is run with Kidd and player X, the defense will go under the screen, NOT switch and  NOT double team.  Kidd's shooting percentage is misleading because of his scoring in the paint and wide open shots off the double team.  Kidd will not get those looks in a pick-n-roll/pop situation.  He's going to get a mid-range shot comming off a dribble, not even close to a strength of his, he will pass the shot up 80% of the time.

Won't work.