TWolves and Wizards trade

[Lurker]

And your lock down defender is?

Caron Butler!

I would go with Joe's words..not a slouch.  But I don't see him as a lock down defender.  And without better team defenders on the floor with him; his talents are wasted.

Far from a lock down defender because he, like most players, get a lot more out of scoring the basketball.  He would rather play solid defense and have energy to score than he would being a lock down type guy.  Which to be honest is a much better use of his talent.  He is an above average offensive player.

So then the question goes back to who will be the defender when the Wiz need to make a stop?  Who will protect the rim?  Who will play defense?  Scoring alone gets you only so far...generally 1 round & out.

[westkoast]

And your lock down defender is?

Caron Butler!

I would go with Joe's words..not a slouch.  But I don't see him as a lock down defender.  And without better team defenders on the floor with him; his talents are wasted.

Far from a lock down defender because he, like most players, get a lot more out of scoring the basketball.  He would rather play solid defense and have energy to score than he would being a lock down type guy.  Which to be honest is a much better use of his talent.  He is an above average offensive player.

So then the question goes back to who will be the defender when the Wiz need to make a stop?  Who will protect the rim?  Who will play defense?  Scoring alone gets you only so far...generally 1 round & out.

The Phoenix Suns disagree seeing as they got to the Western Conference Finals twice (in a much more competitive conference top to bottom).  Had it not been for a cheap shot to Steve Nash they could have easily been NBA champions on scoring alone.

[Lurker]

The Phoenix Suns disagree seeing as they got to the Western Conference Finals twice (in a much more competitive conference top to bottom).  Had it not been for a cheap shot to Steve Nash they could have easily been NBA champions on scoring alone.

Go back and check defensive efficiency on those Phoenix teams...

[westkoast]

The Phoenix Suns disagree seeing as they got to the Western Conference Finals twice (in a much more competitive conference top to bottom).  Had it not been for a cheap shot to Steve Nash they could have easily been NBA champions on scoring alone.

Go back and check defensive efficiency on those Phoenix teams...

Why would I waste my time when there are no current Wizard numbers to compare them to?  If your point is to say that the Suns were better on the defensive end based on defensive efficiency how does this apply to an argument about the Wizards if we can't compare their numbers to say 'Hay Suns were a better defensive team than the 2009-2010 Wizards?'

The Suns didn't play great defense.  You've said this a number of times yourself.  How is it all the sudden they were a good defensive team and DID NOT beat teams by out scoring them rather than stopping them?  Are you getting confused on YOUR Spurs and the Suns?  Cuz the teams might as well have been night and day.

[jn]

Thought I'd raise one more point about the Wiz here.  They have been built around the individual skills of Arenas and they live and die with his risk taking.  Now they have a coach in Saunders who's offensive philosphy is about ball movement and a high assist to turnover ratio.   It's a huge change.

[Lurker]

The Phoenix Suns disagree seeing as they got to the Western Conference Finals twice (in a much more competitive conference top to bottom).  Had it not been for a cheap shot to Steve Nash they could have easily been NBA champions on scoring alone.

Go back and check defensive efficiency on those Phoenix teams...

Why would I waste my time when there are no current Wizard numbers to compare them to?  If your point is to say that the Suns were better on the defensive end based on defensive efficiency how does this apply to an argument about the Wizards if we can't compare their numbers to say 'Hay Suns were a better defensive team than the 2009-2010 Wizards?'

The Suns didn't play great defense.  You've said this a number of times yourself.  How is it all the sudden they were a good defensive team and DID NOT beat teams by out scoring them rather than stopping them?  Are you getting confused on YOUR Spurs and the Suns?  Cuz the teams might as well have been night and day.

No the Suns teams that went deep into the playoffs...with Bell, Marion, Diaw...were above average defensive teams.  Those were their versatile, athletic defensive players.  Nash is not a good defender and Stoudemire cannot maintain focus on the defensive end (think Bynum).  Adding Shaq to that team...after subtracting the defenders listed above...turned them into a horrible defensive team.  And THAT is what the stats of mine you posted in the other thread were posted to prove.  That Shaq didn't hurt the offensive power of the Suns...which everyone predicted...but actually hurt the defensive side.

The Wizards are much the same.  They are/were not a strong defensive team to start with even including Arenas before 2 knee injuries.  In the 2007/08 season they were in the bottom third of the league in most defensive categories that matter...FG%, FG differential, TO differential, asst differential.  And middle of the league in rebounding, steals and blocked shots.  Adding more offensive firepower isn't the answer the Wizards should be looking for...they need defensive help.  And Miller/Foye will not help on that end of the court.

[westkoast]

The Phoenix Suns disagree seeing as they got to the Western Conference Finals twice (in a much more competitive conference top to bottom).  Had it not been for a cheap shot to Steve Nash they could have easily been NBA champions on scoring alone.

Go back and check defensive efficiency on those Phoenix teams...

Why would I waste my time when there are no current Wizard numbers to compare them to?  If your point is to say that the Suns were better on the defensive end based on defensive efficiency how does this apply to an argument about the Wizards if we can't compare their numbers to say 'Hay Suns were a better defensive team than the 2009-2010 Wizards?'

The Suns didn't play great defense.  You've said this a number of times yourself.  How is it all the sudden they were a good defensive team and DID NOT beat teams by out scoring them rather than stopping them?  Are you getting confused on YOUR Spurs and the Suns?  Cuz the teams might as well have been night and day.

No the Suns teams that went deep into the playoffs...with Bell, Marion, Diaw...were above average defensive teams.  Those were their versatile, athletic defensive players.  Nash is not a good defender and Stoudemire cannot maintain focus on the defensive end (think Bynum).  Adding Shaq to that team...after subtracting the defenders listed above...turned them into a horrible defensive team.  And THAT is what the stats of mine you posted in the other thread were posted to prove.  That Shaq didn't hurt the offensive power of the Suns...which everyone predicted...but actually hurt the defensive side.

The Wizards are much the same.  They are/were not a strong defensive team to start with even including Arenas before 2 knee injuries.  In the 2007/08 season they were in the bottom third of the league in most defensive categories that matter...FG%, FG differential, TO differential, asst differential.  And middle of the league in rebounding, steals and blocked shots.  Adding more offensive firepower isn't the answer the Wizards should be looking for...they need defensive help.  And Miller/Foye will not help on that end of the court.

Wait hold on, are you really now going back to say those Suns teams were above average defensive teams and did not try to out score opponents to win?

You realize that D'Antoni has made it clear that's how they wanted to win many times.  They even have a book written about the team based on a mantra that they want to get a shot off as quick as possible.  Part of the reason D'Antoni left and they did not win was their defense was not good and they relied too much on offense.  I wouldn't call that an above average defensive team.  I don't believe you did at the time either.

While I agree what you are saying about the Wizards, I don't see how you are having a change of heart about the Suns defense.

[Lurker]

Wait hold on, are you really now going back to say those Suns teams were above average defensive teams and did not try to out score opponents to win?

You realize that D'Antoni has made it clear that's how they wanted to win many times.  They even have a book written about the team based on a mantra that they want to get a shot off as quick as possible.  Part of the reason D'Antoni left and they did not win was their defense was not good and they relied too much on offense.  I wouldn't call that an above average defensive team.  I don't believe you did at the time either.

While I agree what you are saying about the Wizards, I don't see how you are having a change of heart about the Suns defense.

Yes, I have changed my mine some.  Those Suns teams were not elite defensive teams but if you look at the metrics they were in the top third of the league.  You know after a couple years of going deep into the playoffs I decided to look deeper at those teams because I do believe that serious contenders have to play both side of the court.  Just because your philosophy was to score in less than 7 seconds (the book) doesn't mean that you play no defense.

And as I said above as the athletic defenders on those Suns teams were traded away the team's defense declined even as the offense stayed effective.  And that is also when their stay in the serious contender club started to wane.