Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.

[WayOutWest]

Updated: May 26, 2009, 8:38 PM ET
NBA upgrades trip to flagrant foulComment Email Print Share By Marc Stein

Denver Nuggets guard Dahntay Jones is on the brink of a one-game suspension after the NBA upgraded his Game 4 trip of Kobe Bryant to a flagrant foul.

The foul -- deemed a flagrant foul 1 by league officials -- is Jones' third flagrant of the postseason and his second in the past two games in the Western Conference finals. That gives Jones three flagrant-foul points in the playoffs, with players receiving an automatic one-game ban when they exceed three points.

The league confirmed Tuesday night that Jones' third-quarter trip -- which was not spotted by the officiating crew -- has been reclassified as a flagrant 1. It also confirmed that Andrew Bynum's fourth-quarter flagrant 1 against Denver's Chris Andersen has been downgraded to a personal foul.
 
Bryant beat Jones on a backdoor cut to the basket but was sent tumbling when Jones stuck out his right foot. Jones called it an accidental, instinctive move to getting beat on the play. Lakers coach Phil Jackson nonetheless accused Jones of "unacceptable defense, tripping guys and playing unsportsmanlike basketball."

Nuggets coach George Karl told reporters Tuesday: "I'm glad it just was a flagrant and no suspension. I don't think this series is anything but a pretty even NBA playoff series. They're not liking us, we're not liking them and it's not getting any kinder. It's going to be harder, tougher and meaner.

"[But] I don't think the precedent is good. If [referee] Bennett Salvatore saw that play, would he have called a flagrant? I think he would have called a foul, but I don't think he would have called a flagrant. I think the mood of the game is being overridden by the mood of the [league] office. I'm not sure that's the right precedent."

Asked Monday night if he thought Jones' trip was deliberate, Bryant quipped: "I just fell on my face for no reason. I'm a klutz."

Bryant said Tuesday his opinion of Jones hasn't changed: "It hasn't at all. He's a good player."

There were also four technical fouls in Game 4, with Denver's Carmelo Anthony collecting his fourth T of the postseason and Kenyon Martin and J.R. Smith each picking up No. 3.

Players who reach the five-T barrier in the playoffs receive a warning letter from the league office, with one-game suspensions assessed after the seventh technical and every other one thereafter (ninth, 11th, 13th, etc.).

Martin has actually collected six technical fouls this postseason, but his previous three before Monday night's T were rescinded by the league office. Bryant's tech total is five, with one rescinded by the NBA as well.

After collecting his fifth T in the first game of the Denver series -- with potentially 13 games left in his season at that point -- Bryant vowed: "I won't get another one."

Jackson and the Lakers each received a $25,000 fine Tuesday after his pointed postgame comments Monday about the Game 4 officiating, during which Denver shot 49 free throws to L.A.'s 35. The Lakers had a 45-31 edge in free throw attempts in Game 3.

"Basketball is a game where the aggressor gets the advantage," Jackson said after Denver evened the series at 2-2. "And tonight we didn't know what a foul was and what wasn't a foul. Start of the game, we got guys knocked around going to the basket, they said, 'We're going to let those things go.' By the end of the ballgame, little fouls were being called all over the place."

Jackson is the second coach to attack Jones during these playoffs. New Orleans Hornets coach Byron Scott registered similar complaints during the first round when Jones relentlessly hounded Chris Paul.

"I wouldn't expect them to call me the greatest player in the world," Jones said.

Said Karl: "Everybody knows how we use him. We sic him on the best perimeter guy. That's his job, that's his assignment. A Bruce Bowen mentality and he's done a good job with it. He's done well with it."

Denver's physical nature has been a prominent topic throughout the playoffs, but Jones isn't backing down from his detractors.

"They know there's a presence there and I'm going to play hard and I'm going to scrap and I'm going to try to help my team win, so whatever you want to call it," Jones said. "We call it playing hard."

Karl added: "If I was Kobe I wouldn't want [Jones] to cover me. He's a pain, he's a nag, he's always bothering you. He has a good defensive base, he has a good stance. He's professional. Whatever we want him to do, from fronts to denials, he's willing to do. I think he's doing as good a job as anyone on our team."

Marc Stein is a senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

[rickortreat]

IMO, they didn't get it right at all. Bynum's foul was excessively hard, the very definition of a flagrant. Jones' foul was a dirty play, but it was a trip, hardly worthy of a flagrant.

Got to give props where they're due.  Kobe's comment was great.  Showed a good sense of humor, self-depreciating and all.

[msc]

Dantay Jones is really proving to be a punk.  

I get why many people hate the Lakers.  I completely understand the phenomena of despising a team that is dominant, when they are not your team.  I hated the Bulls, 49ers, Cowboys and Yankee's for the exact same reason.  Throw in an arrogant, polarizing personality like Kobe Bryant and viola ... recipe for severe dislike.  I get that and I'm cool with it.  

What I don't get is how anyone can possibly get behind this Nuggets team.  With the exception of Chauncy Billups, who is a straight-up guy and fantastic leader on the court, the majority of this team is comprised of individuals who personify what is wrong with the NBA and professional athletes in general today.  It's embarrassing for the NBA, sports, and humanity in general.  

To watch J.R. Smith jump around and thump his chest like a jackarse after every made 3-point play is just embarrassing.  I'm embarrassed for him, his family, the Denver fans.  It's amateurish and unsportsmanlike.  Act like you've been there before, moron. You have no class and are nothing more than a street thug who can put a ball through a hole.  If not for that saving quality, you would be in jail right now and a burden to us taxpayers.  I guess I can at least be happy that I'm not paying for his room and board.  

[msc]

IMO, they didn't get it right at all. Bynum's foul was excessively hard, the very definition of a flagrant. Jones' foul was a dirty play, but it was a trip, hardly worthy of a flagrant.

Bynum was playing the ball, was he not?  If anything it looked to me like Bynum was pretty darn close to making a good play by getting all ball.  He came down hard, with both hands, no doubt about that, but it was clearly at the ball and a basketball play. 

Sticking your foot out to intentionally trip another player is neither playing the ball, nor a basketball related play, and it's clearly excessive.  There's your "very definition of a flagrant". 

[WayOutWest]

IMO, they didn't get it right at all. Bynum's foul was excessively hard, the very definition of a flagrant. Jones' foul was a dirty play, but it was a trip, hardly worthy of a flagrant.

Bynum was playing the ball, was he not?  If anything it looked to me like Bynum was pretty darn close to making a good play by getting all ball.  He came down hard, with both hands, no doubt about that, but it was clearly at the ball and a basketball play. 

Sticking your foot out to intentionally trip another player is neither playing the ball, nor a basketball related play, and it's clearly excessive.  There's your "very definition of a flagrant". 

BINGO!

[westkoast]

How can fans get upset when a player on their squad didn't 'foul hard enough to prevent the and 1' but then turn around to get upset when a player delivers a hard foul, on the ball, to make sure the player can't go up with it?

I can't see Reality's posts obviously but I am for certain he is not rushing to put the animated gif or video up or this debate would not continue to go on.  Bynum went after the ball, plain and simple.  You want non-Laker confirmation?  Had it even looked remotely like it was a good call that SHOULD go against a Laker player Reality would have put the video up.  Since he has held back on doing it you should know right there that WOW and MSC are on point like Rondo.

[WayOutWest]

How can fans get upset when a player on their squad didn't 'foul hard enough to prevent the and 1' but then turn around to get upset when a player delivers a hard foul, on the ball, to make sure the player can't go up with it?

Like I said, Laker hate causes blindness.

[Joe Vancil]

Dantay Jones is really proving to be a punk.  

I get why many people hate the Lakers.  I completely understand the phenomena of despising a team that is dominant, when they are not your team.  I hated the Bulls, 49ers, Cowboys and Yankee's for the exact same reason.  Throw in an arrogant, polarizing personality like Kobe Bryant and viola ... recipe for severe dislike.  I get that and I'm cool with it.  

What I don't get is how anyone can possibly get behind this Nuggets team.  With the exception of Chauncy Billups, who is a straight-up guy and fantastic leader on the court, the majority of this team is comprised of individuals who personify what is wrong with the NBA and professional athletes in general today.  It's embarrassing for the NBA, sports, and humanity in general.  

To watch J.R. Smith jump around and thump his chest like a jackarse after every made 3-point play is just embarrassing.  I'm embarrassed for him, his family, the Denver fans.  It's amateurish and unsportsmanlike.  Act like you've been there before, moron. You have no class and are nothing more than a street thug who can put a ball through a hole.  If not for that saving quality, you would be in jail right now and a burden to us taxpayers.  I guess I can at least be happy that I'm not paying for his room and board.  

I'll tell you how people can get behind Denver:  they're the ultimate underdog.  They've got Karl, Billups, and...nothing else.

You've got Carmelo Anthony, whose arrogance is up there with the tops of them.  His supporters - and believe it or not, he has his supporters - will call it "street cred."  I think he's awful - an example of exactly what I detest about Kobe Bryant.

You've got Kenyon Martin, a foul-tempered buffoon with bad knees, just finally getting back from microfracture surgery.

You've got Nene, who isn't exactly easy-to-hate, but he's certainly got very little to like (unless, of course, it's our Fantasy League and you're Ted).

You've got Smith, the ultimate brain-dead knucklehead with delusions that he's something special.  (How this guy didn't end up on the Knicks is beyond me.)

You've got Jones, a limited, defense-only player.  (I actually reasonably like this guy.  I think he's underrated and underappreciated.)  Now, he's gone dirty on us.

You've got Anderson, back from a drug suspension, the ultimate example of the ridiculous nature the Slam Dunk contest was reduced to until recent rule changes.

You've got Anthony Carter - a reject from Miami, San An, and Minnesota, who has proven he's barely capable as a back-up at point.

You've got Kleiza - the latest flavor of Wally Szczerbiak - plays too much like a 2 to be a 3, and too slow to be a 2.

Renaldo Balkman.  Insert favorite Isiah Thomas/New York Knicks joke here.

Johan Petro.  Apparently the most expendable of all the expendable ex-Sonic center draft pick flops.

Jason Hart - 8 years, 7 teams.  Dumped by Utah for an aged Brevin Knight, and then dumped by the Clippers, because they had no use for him.

THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN.  They're not that good of a team.  They're all smoke and mirrors.  And they're winning.

This is exactly the reason most people go on the Detroit bandwagon in 2004...they're not supposed to win, and as a society, we tend to like the underdog against the favorite.  Add to the fact that the team is working hard, and SHOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISPATCHED, WERE IT NOT FOR THEIR HARD WORK, and people look at them as the example of the American Dream - hard work pays off.  Even though most of the team is repugnant, there's something there to identify with - especially when they're going up against the spoiled, lazy rich kid who has all the advantages, that NOBODY wants to identify with.  (You forgot that part of your "why people hate the Lakers.")

Ultimately, though, it's a limited team versus a talented team (although Bynum is a belongs-on-Denver bum), and LA will be moving on.  Gasol has identified the weakness of the team - they're vulnerable in the paint, especially when they're forced to foul to stop the interior play - and if he is given touches, he'll take care of business.  9-31 threes by LA, while Gasol was 8-11 with 4 assists.  He's 25-40 (.625) for the series.  Give him the ball, and this series is done, because Martin, Anderson, and Nene can't knock people around when they're on the bench in foul trouble.

No one really expects Denver to win this series as much as they hope/believe that the Lakers' lackadaisical play should/will lose.

[westkoast]

Good posting as usual Joe!

[Joe Vancil]

IMO, they didn't get it right at all. Bynum's foul was excessively hard, the very definition of a flagrant. Jones' foul was a dirty play, but it was a trip, hardly worthy of a flagrant.

Bynum was playing the ball, was he not?  If anything it looked to me like Bynum was pretty darn close to making a good play by getting all ball.  He came down hard, with both hands, no doubt about that, but it was clearly at the ball and a basketball play. 

Sticking your foot out to intentionally trip another player is neither playing the ball, nor a basketball related play, and it's clearly excessive.  There's your "very definition of a flagrant". 

I can't agree, unless:

1) using your foot for the pull-the-chair move is flagrant
2) using a foot-hook to prevent the rebound is flagrant
3) holding position with one foot against a jump-shooter is flagrant (Bruce Bowen)

I thought this trip that everyone was talking about was more of an under-cut.  This was both players stuck right on the floor.  Good defense at that point says occupy as much space side-to-side as you can...what we used to refer to as a "dis-lodge" during a cut.  The NBA made that illegal back in about 2001, and yet most players I watch at any level or play against in the most basic of gyms (and me as well) *STILL* use a dislodge against anyone going through the lane.  Do it against Dwight Howard, and it's called good defense...do it against Vince Carter and it's horrible and dirty play.

It's a foul, yes, albeit a pretty ticky-tack one.  But it's not flagrant.

Sorry.  This one gets the Kitty-Cat Award for Flagrant Fouls.

[WayOutWest]

I can't agree, unless:

1) using your foot for the pull-the-chair move is flagrant
2) using a foot-hook to prevent the rebound is flagrant
3) holding position with one foot against a jump-shooter is flagrant (Bruce Bowen)

I thought this trip that everyone was talking about was more of an under-cut.  This was both players stuck right on the floor.  Good defense at that point says occupy as much space side-to-side as you can...what we used to refer to as a "dis-lodge" during a cut.  The NBA made that illegal back in about 2001, and yet most players I watch at any level or play against in the most basic of gyms (and me as well) *STILL* use a dislodge against anyone going through the lane.  Do it against Dwight Howard, and it's called good defense...do it against Vince Carter and it's horrible and dirty play.

It's a foul, yes, albeit a pretty ticky-tack one.  But it's not flagrant.

Sorry.  This one gets the Kitty-Cat Award for Flagrant Fouls.

Jones went the wrong way when Kobe went for the lob/rebound and stuck out his foot to trip Kobe, there is no excuse.  I don't know if it's a flagrant either but it's definately DIRTY.  Wouldn't you expect a confrontation/fight after a play like that Joe? 

[Joe Vancil]

Actually, no, I wouldn't, unless the player getting tripped is an enforcer looking for a reason to fight.

This may just be the point guard in me talking, but I feel that trips like that get made every game.  I want to cut as close to the defender as I can, making me as fast as I can be, and controlling the defender's motion.  He wants to make sure I don't go through the lane without taking a bump.  Invariably, the cutter will get tripped.

It looked pretty harmless from the angle I saw in the link you provided.

[westkoast]

Actually, no, I wouldn't, unless the player getting tripped is an enforcer looking for a reason to fight.

This may just be the point guard in me talking, but I feel that trips like that get made every game.  I want to cut as close to the defender as I can, making me as fast as I can be, and controlling the defender's motion.  He wants to make sure I don't go through the lane without taking a bump.  Invariably, the cutter will get tripped.

It looked pretty harmless from the angle I saw in the link you provided.

I actually don't think Kobe was as pissed about the tripping itself as the fact that it was blatant and they are getting away with a lot of those plays.  What made it worse is they finally started to call these cheap plays after it got out of hand but instead of regular fouls they started to award technicals for it (like that one on Kenyon Martin when he locked Pau Gasol's arm down the court).  To me that is really annoying.  I don't think a technical is warranted and I blame the refs for letting it get out of hand and temper flare to the point where all the sudden they think they need to blow the whistle a thousand times to get the game under control.

Based on how the league has been calling flagrant fouls, moreso based on trying to hurt a player, then it should be a flagrant.  Especially if that Bynum play was.  Though there was a point in time where a certain Utah Jazz point guard would do small things like this and was labeled a 'savvy vet' for knowing what he could and could not get away with.  I also remember a hair dying weirdo doing the same thing in Chicago to Karl Malone.  I wouldn't say it's a huge deal but it's a dirty play.

[Joe Vancil]

Actually, I watched the film again - saw the trip from a different angle.  Saw something else, too - a Bryant hand on Jones to push him and get some extra separation.

I'd have *DEFINITELY* tripped Kobe on that play.  He'll get away with the push, I'll probably get called for the trip, but I'll whisper where only the ref can hear, "He's pushing off."  You've got to trip him so that he doesn't get away with the push.

Now it makes more sense to me why that didn't get called.  It's one of those "let the players referee their own game" calls...like when you call the ball out-of-bounds off a guy who goes over the back, even though it was off his opponent - or when you call the foul only because the shot didn't go in.  In other words, shabby refereeing.

[Joe Vancil]

Actually, no, I wouldn't, unless the player getting tripped is an enforcer looking for a reason to fight.

This may just be the point guard in me talking, but I feel that trips like that get made every game.  I want to cut as close to the defender as I can, making me as fast as I can be, and controlling the defender's motion.  He wants to make sure I don't go through the lane without taking a bump.  Invariably, the cutter will get tripped.

It looked pretty harmless from the angle I saw in the link you provided.

I actually don't think Kobe was as pissed about the tripping itself as the fact that it was blatant and they are getting away with a lot of those plays.  What made it worse is they finally started to call these cheap plays after it got out of hand but instead of regular fouls they started to award technicals for it (like that one on Kenyon Martin when he locked Pau Gasol's arm down the court).  To me that is really annoying.  I don't think a technical is warranted and I blame the refs for letting it get out of hand and temper flare to the point where all the sudden they think they need to blow the whistle a thousand times to get the game under control.

Based on how the league has been calling flagrant fouls, moreso based on trying to hurt a player, then it should be a flagrant.  Especially if that Bynum play was.  Though there was a point in time where a certain Utah Jazz point guard would do small things like this and was labeled a 'savvy vet' for knowing what he could and could not get away with.  I also remember a hair dying weirdo doing the same thing in Chicago to Karl Malone.  I wouldn't say it's a huge deal but it's a dirty play.

Haven't seen the Bynum play (which *WAS NOT* a flagrant, according to the league, I thought...am I wrong?).  Care to post it?

I was thinking "John Stockton, Joe Dumars, and Nate McMillan" when I saw that play.  You could probably throw in Greg Anthony, Gary Payton, and Penny Hardaway, too.  It's not a flagrant.