Author Topic: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?  (Read 8742 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« on: May 19, 2009, 10:56:06 PM »
I will give you ONE guess!

KOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 11:31:58 PM »
Can anyone remember a player having to guard the opposing teams TWO best players and still carrying the scoring load for this team in the playoffs?

I was pretty upset that Kobe was forced to guard Billups AND Melo because the other Lakers defenders were getting killed.  Kobe then HAD to carry the offensive load because the other Lakers were not helping much.

Mello showed eveyone ELSE what I knew he was capable of, he's an offensive machine and he was beating up anyone who was guarding him in the paint and under the glass. Mello is tough and I do NOT expect Kobe to be able to continue to play the way he did if he has to guard Billups and get beat up by Mello as well.  Too tough for anyone to do so the other Lakers need to step up if the Lakers are to win this series.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 08:50:13 AM »
Losing the ball at 99-99 with the Nuggets taking it the other way for the uncontested dunk was such great "closing" oh wait.....

Tweet!  **Foul**.


Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 08:59:32 AM »
Oh, please.  Are you telling me Kenyon Martin didn't foul Kobe?  It was a blatant reach-and-bump, which, the moment I saw it, my thought was, "How stupid!"  That was a call that the referee *HAS* to make.

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2009, 09:06:04 AM »
Oh, please.  Are you telling me Kenyon Martin didn't foul Kobe?  It was a blatant reach-and-bump, which, the moment I saw it, my thought was, "How stupid!"  That was a call that the referee *HAS* to make.

Almost every sports guy said that was a dumb foul, especially for a 9 year veteran.  They went as far as saying that Kenyon made only two mistakes in the whole game and that was one of them.  I was so glad Kobe decided to take it to the rim instead of settling for jumpshots like he normally does.  Kobe was great at the end by driving and creating tons of contact, that Kenyon foul was a lucky bail out cause Kenyon actually cut Kobe of and was driving Kobe away from the basket, but then Kenyon made the mistake of reaching in for the OBVIOUS foul.  Kobe was clutch at the FT line, the Thuggets must be kicking themselves for all those missed FT in the first half.  I thought the Nuggets were getting all the calls in the first half and the Lakers were getting screwed, but as they say "the rim don't lie" and the Nuggets were not able to convert.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2009, 09:11:20 AM »
Oh, please.  Are you telling me Kenyon Martin didn't foul Kobe?  It was a blatant reach-and-bump, which, the moment I saw it, my thought was, "How stupid!"  That was a call that the referee *HAS* to make. 
I was watching it while distracted.  I'm in the process of trying to obtain some footage of pics or video.  I have heard from a few Non Nozers like yourself that did also say "dumb foul" by KMart.  Plenty of others who thought it was a touch foul that could have easily been overlooked and would have (of course) had it been Kobme D-ing up on KMart.

I did get to clearly see some of the other joke calls Kobe predictably recieved, ie Mello and he jostling for position with Kobme being the fouler.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 09:24:18 AM »
Typical Reality.  Complain about an obvious foul but ignore Billups stepping out of bounce on that 3 to tie?

Anyways, back to the subject at hand.  Like I said before the series I think people underestimated how much Artest/Battier really made the Lakers lives difficult by making Kobe work hard.  He tends to bail them out when they look complacent or unsure like he did last night.

The Nuggets have no one who can guard him so the scoring is almost expected.  It's his competitive spirit and desire to try to make Melo work that was more impressive IMO.  Clearly Kobe can't guard Melo. All you can ask is to force him to work hard for his shots.  I think Melo worked hard for most of his shots in the 2nd half.  1st half? Not so much.  Though Billups was held in check in that first half because Kobe was on him instead.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 09:26:15 AM by westkoast »
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 11:13:44 AM »
The Lakers won because they were mentally tougher.  The refs gave the Lakers a couple of breaks, but the big mistake was the in-bounds pass that Ariza stole. Of course the missed free throws by the Nuggets made life a lot easier.

This was a 2-point win, and honestly it looks to me like the Nuggets are the better team, but LA's experince and strength of will at the end was superior.  Every time the Nuggets got ahead, the Lakers got a stop or two and reeled them back.

The Nuggets also were stupid to not look for Melo more down the stretch, the Lakers have no answer for him, and it is a serious misuse of talent to have Kobe guard him.  If Ariza or Odom can't do it, the Lakers are going to be in serious trouble in this series.  The Nuggets were victimized several times by bad passes and wasted possessions. If they can control those foul-ups, they are the better team, the difference is that the Lakers opportunistic defense is always there and the Nuggets took too many risks.


Offline westkoast

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 11:29:23 AM »
The Lakers won because they were mentally tougher.  The refs gave the Lakers a couple of breaks, but the big mistake was the in-bounds pass that Ariza stole. Of course the missed free throws by the Nuggets made life a lot easier.

This was a 2-point win, and honestly it looks to me like the Nuggets are the better team, but LA's experince and strength of will at the end was superior.  Every time the Nuggets got ahead, the Lakers got a stop or two and reeled them back. 

The Nuggets also were stupid to not look for Melo more down the stretch, the Lakers have no answer for him, and it is a serious misuse of talent to have Kobe guard him.  If Ariza or Odom can't do it, the Lakers are going to be in serious trouble in this series.  The Nuggets were victimized several times by bad passes and wasted possessions. If they can control those foul-ups, they are the better team, the difference is that the Lakers opportunistic defense is always there and the Nuggets took too many risks.



I disagree it's a misuse of talent.  Unless it gets him into foul trouble I don't see what the problem is.  He gets paid the most money and he is called one of the best players in the league right?  I don't think it's too much to ask him to play at a high level on both ends of the court.   He is able to do both.

As far as the Lakers in for a long series because they can't stop Melo....don't you think the fact no one is going to be able to stop Kobe is going to off set that?  Melo worked very hard for his points last night.  Kobe, not so much.

As far as the Lakers getting breaks, which ones Rick?  I thought the game was called very poorly last night and Lakers did not get 'home cooking' at all.  There was  a lot of missed calls.  Billups stepping out before that 3 being a MAJOR non-call mess up.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 11:31:31 AM by westkoast »
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Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 11:34:03 AM »
Kobe nailed a couple of key 3's that really sealed the deal, and that little thief Ariza put the exclamation point on one thing, if the Lakers are within 10 with 5 minutes to go, they can beat anyone. It was nice to see Fisher wake up and score for a change.

Not that I like the hang around and beat them at the end mentality, a scoring juggernaut like Denver will burn you if you live by that credo, but LA plays just enough defense to keep close down the stretch and they are too talented to be ignored. Personally I think the spark off the bench that is Brown and Powell is really being underestimated, these cats have had great minutes and give us a good boost when Luke "please don't shoot the ball" Walton is out there.

I don't want to hear one word about the officiating either, 35 FT to 24 in Denver's favor when they were both focusing on the post and only had a 6 point disparity of point in the paint tell me no one was trying to give this game to LA, the Lakers stayed close and stole it at the end, deal with it.

LA's lack of scoring by the rest of the team had me concerned, I really don't expect that to happen again, at least not to that level. But I will say this, those that said LA scored the deal of the decade when they landed Gasol can add Denver's picking up Billups to the debate, 8 assists nowhere near tell the story of his impact last night, he IS the X factor for them.
Dan

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 11:48:43 AM »
The Lakers won because they were mentally tougher.  The refs gave the Lakers a couple of breaks, but the big mistake was the in-bounds pass that Ariza stole. Of course the missed free throws by the Nuggets made life a lot easier.

Did you watch the whole game?  The Nuggets got more breaks from the refs than the Lakers, it was like they were playing in Denver. 

This was a 2-point win, and honestly it looks to me like the Nuggets are the better team, but LA's experince and strength of will at the end was superior.  Every time the Nuggets got ahead, the Lakers got a stop or two and reeled them back. 

The Nuggets CLEARLY don't like the better team, they look like the more determined/focused team but it was clear to me the Lakers are superior.  The Nuggets played a near perfect game, they got help from the refs, the Lakers did not play with the intensity of Game 7 vs the Rockets and the Nuggets STILL LOST. 

The Nuggets also were stupid to not look for Melo more down the stretch, the Lakers have no answer for him, and it is a serious misuse of talent to have Kobe guard him.  If Ariza or Odom can't do it, the Lakers are going to be in serious trouble in this series. 

I agree, it's too much to ask of Kobe at this stage in his career.  I posted earlier that Kobe can not be expected to contain Melo AND Billups AND also expected to carry the scoring burden for the entire series.  I have not seen anyone do what Kobe did last night since Hakeem, D up two guys and carry the Lakers in the same game, I don't expect him to keep it up.

The Nuggets were victimized several times by bad passes and wasted possessions. If they can control those foul-ups, they are the better team, the difference is that the Lakers opportunistic defense is always there and the Nuggets took too many risks.

The Nuggets have to do all that and HOPE the Lakers don't get serious/motivated for the Nuggets to be the better team.  I don't see the Nuggets as the better team anymore but I do see the risk of the Lakers getting comfortable and giving a game or two away like they did with the Rockets.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2009, 12:57:40 PM »
The Nuggets were front-running all night in LA.  They were the team that got off to an early lead, and there the team that lead nearly the whole way. The Lakers shot only 41% for the whole game, and LA never shoots that poorly, unless they're being defended.

The game was lost for the Nuggets at the free-throw line where they went 23 of 35.  If they went 26 of 35 all other things being equal we would have had a different outcome.

The Nuggets are a more physical team that Houston, but Denver's 2nd unit had trouble scoring and matching up with the Lakers 2nd team.  Karl will have to make some adjustment match-ups.

Kobe guarding Melo is a waste, and unless they're careful, Kobe will end up picking up a lot of fouls trying to defend him. If he was effective it would be one thing, but Kobe can't stop him at all, and he didn't slow him down one bit.  When he went down into the low post he dunked at will.

Yes, the Lakers could have played with more intensity, which is why they are not a team I'm picking to win it all.  If being behind at home isn't enough to motivate them, they aren't good enough.  Denver has more players that can score, or at least it appeared that way to me. It is important to note, however, that it was those three's by Farmar and Ariza that got the Lakers back into it.

Let me make this very clear: The Lakers hit a couple of three's at the end to get back in to it, and they were LUCKY they made them, and even more fortunate that Denver missed their free throws and Chauncey wasn't hitting his shots.  (5-13)  The evidence of the refs interference is clear when you look at the play by play of the last few minutes and see where they took possession of the ball away from the Nuggets twice.

Also Kobe got bailed out going to the line a couple of times and also didn't get called for all his clutching and grabbing at Melo. Considering he started out the game with a technical, it's amazing he gets all those calls.

Really though, Denver looks like they have more talent to me.  The Lakers have two great players and a bunch of role players. Bynum isn't as good as Nene.

Gasol had a bad game, but I don't know if that's Denver or just a bad night for him. For the Lakers to win when he only puts up 13 is amazing. Why he didn't shoot more is the big question.  They can't continue to rely on Ariza and Farmar, can they?

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2009, 01:47:59 PM »
The Nuggets were front-running all night in LA.  They were the team that got off to an early lead, and there the team that lead nearly the whole way. The Lakers shot only 41% for the whole game, and LA never shoots that poorly, unless they're being defended.

The game was lost for the Nuggets at the free-throw line where they went 23 of 35.  If they went 26 of 35 all other things being equal we would have had a different outcome.

The Nuggets are a more physical team that Houston, but Denver's 2nd unit had trouble scoring and matching up with the Lakers 2nd team.  Karl will have to make some adjustment match-ups.

Kobe guarding Melo is a waste, and unless they're careful, Kobe will end up picking up a lot of fouls trying to defend him. If he was effective it would be one thing, but Kobe can't stop him at all, and he didn't slow him down one bit.  When he went down into the low post he dunked at will.

Yes, the Lakers could have played with more intensity, which is why they are not a team I'm picking to win it all.  If being behind at home isn't enough to motivate them, they aren't good enough.  Denver has more players that can score, or at least it appeared that way to me. It is important to note, however, that it was those three's by Farmar and Ariza that got the Lakers back into it.

Let me make this very clear: The Lakers hit a couple of three's at the end to get back in to it, and they were LUCKY they made them, and even more fortunate that Denver missed their free throws and Chauncey wasn't hitting his shots.  (5-13)  The evidence of the refs interference is clear when you look at the play by play of the last few minutes and see where they took possession of the ball away from the Nuggets twice.

Also Kobe got bailed out going to the line a couple of times and also didn't get called for all his clutching and grabbing at Melo. Considering he started out the game with a technical, it's amazing he gets all those calls.

Really though, Denver looks like they have more talent to me.  The Lakers have two great players and a bunch of role players. Bynum isn't as good as Nene.

Gasol had a bad game, but I don't know if that's Denver or just a bad night for him. For the Lakers to win when he only puts up 13 is amazing. Why he didn't shoot more is the big question.  They can't continue to rely on Ariza and Farmar, can they?


So much to comment on here. Laker lack of intensity drives me nuts, their ability to overcome that lack of intensity on a consistent however proves their talent level is superior to Denver's. The game was affected by the free throw line, but not the way you paint it. Denver was getting bailed out constantly with trips to the stripe, had that not happened, LA cruises in this game. An 11 trip disparity in Denver's favor somehow translates to Kobe getting bailed out how? Denver's "physical" but Kobe is "clutching and grabbing". Kobe guarded their 2 best players and "picked up a lot of fouls"? He finished with 3 total.

I heartily disagree that Nene is better than Bynum. He is more experienced and his post season numbers so far are better, but it is far too early to make that call, especially when his regular season numbers are virtually identical.

How did Gasol have a bad night? He only scored 13 points but no one came close to him on the boards including 6 on the offensive glass that turned into 8 points, plus 2 blocks and he didn't foul out. Not a great night but by no means a bad one, he only took 9 shots, and 5, sometimes that is the way it goes but it's a night not a few bigs wouldn't mind having

Denver has 2 great players and a bunch of role players, AS DO MOST VERY GOOD TEAMS. What's the point? If they are more talented how did their bench struggle so badly scoring against our scrub role players? Why did Karl find it necessary to keep his starters in if they are so talented and deep?

Why can we not rely on Ariza and Farmar? Or Brown for that matter? Have they not proven that we can? How are those 3 pointers "LUCKY" when they do it on a consistent basis?

The whole Lakers were lucky to pull that one out gets really old. Rather than credit them for their ability to fight through a poor shooting night, keep it close, and pull it out in the end, why do people feel the need to call them lucky or say the refs bailed them out, especially when the refs CLEARLY gave the Nuggets the edge at the stripe, is that just a knee jerk reaction or what? Lakers win so the refs must have helped them?

I give Denver full credit for their game last night, they played a near perfect game, good enough to win and it would have been enough against any other team, but LA IS THE BEST TEAM IN THE WC and whether that is my moerism for them or not, oh well, LA took Denver's best shot last night and beat anyway, even with a sub-par effort from our "talentless" role players.





« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 01:57:00 PM by Laker Fan »
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2009, 02:12:28 PM »
LFD already got the response in I was going to say.

I would also like to add:

- Brown is not getting 'lucky' on his 3 point shooting.  He has been shooting well from 3, when he is open, since the first time he came in during the Utah series.  He shot well against Houston too.  I expect him to continue to knock down open shots.  He has the ability to do that.  Maybe had you said 'Odom is getting lucky' I would tend to agree.  He is shooting over 50% from 3 when he is a below average jump shooter, at least consistency wise.  Why is a wide open made jumper by Brown 'lucky' but an off balanced, hand in his face 3 from Billups is not?

- Right now Nene is better than Bynum.  That's true.  Bynum has not done much in the playoffs save a good performance on Sunday.  He also cannot stay on the floor long enough to make an impact.  That doesn't matter though.  Bynum comes off the bench.  Nene should be better than him, he is a starter.  Nene however is nowhere near Pau Gasol in any way shape or form.

- Denver looks like the more hungry team but not the 'better' team.  In the playoffs it is based on wins and not desire.  While I think all Laker fans agree the Lakers don't look great and there is a very  strong possibility for Denver to out play the Lakers, esp when they get home, so far they haven't.  The better team would have executed better down the stretch, they didn't.

Why no mention of Billups stepping out?  I don't expect Reality to comment (and now I don't even see his posts so it doesn't matter) but Rick if you want to talk officials, why not talk about Billups not being called for that turn over?  Why bring up Kobe's technical when he got it because the ball went off his foot instead of into his hands?  Even JVG said it.  If he catches the ball its not a technical since it bounced off his foot it is? Okay.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 02:17:28 PM by westkoast »
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Offline msc

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Re: Who is the best closer in the NBA today?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2009, 02:29:54 PM »
Anyone who thinks that game was called even remotely in the Lakers favor either: 

a) Didn't watch the entire game.
b) Is an idiot
c) Is so jaded with hate for the Lakers that they can't see clearly. 
d) All of the above. 

The officiating in that game was quite possibly the most lopsided I've seen since that game almost 10 years ago that JoMal still cries about daily.   Fortunately for the Lakers, Denver missed a bunch of throws in the first half, or Denver wins. 

I'm not one to complain about about officiating, but to come in here and see Reality's predictable take on one play down the stretch is just insulting.  Thank goodness Joe chimed in as a voice of unbiased reason. 

This is going to be a rag tag, helter-skelter, sloppy, fast, rough, physical series and it will be impossible for the officials to call these games right.  Downright impossible, and I'm okay with that.  I'm hopeful, and believe, it will balance out, but last night was an absolute joke save a couple of fouls we FINALLY got down the stretch, which were in fact fouls by the way.  The refs just had been letting Denver do whatever the heck they wanted on D up until that point.