Author Topic: This team does not have a legitimate PG  (Read 7287 times)

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009, 09:07:49 AM »
Actually by the stats at 82 games, it looks like the Sixers have the 3rd best point guard by PER differential scoring, and were also ranked 3rd at small forward.

We are weakest at shooting guard (Hello Willie) and we are below average at Center and Power Forward.

It appears there are other areas that deserve more attention than Andre Miller.

I love that we're in 5th now.  Just gotta keep on winning.  It is still not impossible to catch Atlanta and have home court advantage for the 1st round.

Offline tk76-

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1426
  • 2Y1- Sixer's 'Logo'
    • View Profile
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2009, 10:46:23 AM »
Miller is a good player who gives the team scoring or true PG play depending on need.

My only qualm with Miller is whether he is a poor fit moving forward.  They need more shooting and better defense from the position when the switch to Iguodala/Thad at 2/3.  Right now Green is covering a lot of PG's for Miller. 

I have zero concerns about his PG skills.  In my view he is one of the best pure PG's in the NBA in terms of running and offense, sharing the ball and finding open teammates.  He may lack range, but he's smart enough to take shots he can hit (unlike Lou and all his 3's.)  He does drive more to score than to set up teammates, but he is effective and clearly in charge of the team.  I want a change given the age and talents of his teammates, but Andre Miller will go down as one of my favorite Sixers.

Offline anklebreaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009, 11:50:13 AM »
Miller is a good player who gives the team scoring or true PG play depending on need.

My only qualm with Miller is whether he is a poor fit moving forward.  They need more shooting and better defense from the position when the switch to Iguodala/Thad at 2/3.  Right now Green is covering a lot of PG's for Miller. 

I have zero concerns about his PG skills.  In my view he is one of the best pure PG's in the NBA in terms of running and offense, sharing the ball and finding open teammates.  He may lack range, but he's smart enough to take shots he can hit (unlike Lou and all his 3's.)  He does drive more to score than to set up teammates, but he is effective and clearly in charge of the team.  I want a change given the age and talents of his teammates, but Andre Miller will go down as one of my favorite Sixers.

good post, TK

Offline RickyPryor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 11:51:01 AM »
Miller is a good player who gives the team scoring or true PG play depending on need.

My only qualm with Miller is whether he is a poor fit moving forward.  They need more shooting and better defense from the position when the switch to Iguodala/Thad at 2/3.  Right now Green is covering a lot of PG's for Miller. 

I have zero concerns about his PG skills.  In my view he is one of the best pure PG's in the NBA in terms of running and offense, sharing the ball and finding open teammates.  He may lack range, but he's smart enough to take shots he can hit (unlike Lou and all his 3's.)  He does drive more to score than to set up teammates, but he is effective and clearly in charge of the team.  I want a change given the age and talents of his teammates, but Andre Miller will go down as one of my favorite Sixers.

But that's the case often.  Snow used to have to defend the better of the backcourt guys, just as Green does in this scenario.  Very few players do all things perfectly.  You want better 'd' at the position?  You'll be playing a guy who lacks 70% of the court awareness Miller possesses.

Just like you see in the better college programs - often a great mix of vets and kids is best.  Miller is among our few true (good) vets.  Not time to worry about "moving forward" at that position yet.  In fact I'll argue that it never will be.

That's one position I'll always prefer to see a seasoned guy.

Offline tk76-

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1426
  • 2Y1- Sixer's 'Logo'
    • View Profile
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 12:37:12 PM »
Agree that PG is a good position to have veteran leadership.  I also agree Miller is a good player.  I just don't think Miller/Iguodala/Young is a good blend of skills.  Even with Young's recent improved midrange shot, they still lack good 2pt and 3pt shooters to spread the floor.  If either the SG/SF were deadeye shooters, then Miller would be a great fit.

The other option would be to leave Thad at PF and upgrade SG and have Brand be center.  But that line-up would be comicaly small.

Offline Skates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
    • View Profile
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2009, 08:42:52 AM »
The team needs a total overhaul at PG to be more competitive.  IMO Miller and Williams are very inadequate for the team's needs.  That being said, both are quality, good, but not great players, who just don't fit the future of the team. 

Miller will probably leave of his own accord this summer, although I would take him back on a two year deal or two years, plus a small buyout for the third year.  The only reason I say this is that most of his likely replacements will be rookies who will need a year or two to take over the starting role.

If Miller stays, I definitely move Lou.  He is a good bench scorer, playing well laet in the season, young and with a decent long term contract.  That should give him value in a trade to the right team, hence he is a decent trade asset.

But for us he is not a PG, not a great three point shooter and not a great defender at either abckcourt spot.  If trading him let's us move up to draft a better PG in the draft or nets us a full sized wing with three point shooting capabilities, who can be a sixth man behind Young and Iggy, then I am all for it.  And if Green or Reggie take their contracts along with him and we still get value in return, that would be a huge plus, but probably too much to hope for.

If a quality starting PG can be obtained, then I would be more than happy to part with both Miller and Williams.

Offline rickortreat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2056
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2009, 09:08:46 AM »
Statistical analysis suggests that the Sixers are well above average at Point Guard.  Each of the five postions performance and the performance of their counterparts on the opposing teams shows where each team is competitive and where it isn't based on their accumulated PER.

Obviously the best team would be one where your team has the best player in the league at every position.  But the salary cap generally makes that impossible, indeed if you're team is lucky and you manage to draft them, good luck keeping all of them under contract as the rest of the league bids for their services.

The truth is that the best teams only have players at a few positions where they are dominant. Even last year's champs, the Boston Celtics doesn't have a single player that ranks first at their position.  Here are their ranking per position: PG-5, SG-3, SF-3, PF-7, C-19

Compare that with Phila.'s rankings:  PG-3, SG-20, SF-2, PF-16, C-20

Clearly, improving our play at point guard won't give us much benefit, compared with improving our play at Shooting guard, (isn't it obvious by now that you want Andre Iguodala there?) And the poor play at Center and PF indicates the rotation could be modified by giving Speights and Ratliff more minutes, at the expense of Green, Dalembert and Evans, who are all substandard players who actually hurt the Sixers when they're on the floor. 

This ranking also shows that if we can keep our point guard and small forward performance prowess, that by making some improvement at SG and the big positions the Sixers could become a very competitive team in the playoffs.  It also shows the deficiencies of the coaching staff- when they continue to put the same people at the same positions and continue to get substandard results.

Offline DuckyNinja

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2009, 10:01:29 AM »
82games.com's PER numbers don't match up with Hollinger's PER numbers on ESPN, so I don't know what to say there (neither Miller nor Williams is above 20, yet 82games has our PGs as over 20).  I do like that we're the best SF team not named the Lebrons, but I think those numbers just confirm what we already know.  We need a SG and better big men.  Luckily, we happen to have Brand and Jason Smith coming back next year and Speights will hopefully take a step forward.

Offline anklebreaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2009, 01:26:27 PM »
The team needs a total overhaul at PG to be more competitive.  IMO Miller and Williams are very inadequate for the team's needs.  That being said, both are quality, good, but not great players, who just don't fit the future of the team. 

Miller will probably leave of his own accord this summer, although I would take him back on a two year deal or two years, plus a small buyout for the third year.  The only reason I say this is that most of his likely replacements will be rookies who will need a year or two to take over the starting role.

If Miller stays, I definitely move Lou.  He is a good bench scorer, playing well laet in the season, young and with a decent long term contract.  That should give him value in a trade to the right team, hence he is a decent trade asset.

But for us he is not a PG, not a great three point shooter and not a great defender at either abckcourt spot.  If trading him let's us move up to draft a better PG in the draft or nets us a full sized wing with three point shooting capabilities, who can be a sixth man behind Young and Iggy, then I am all for it.  And if Green or Reggie take their contracts along with him and we still get value in return, that would be a huge plus, but probably too much to hope for.

If a quality starting PG can be obtained, then I would be more than happy to part with both Miller and Williams.

The more I think about it, the more I warm up to the idea of moving Lou.  While I still think he's going to be a solid player, he's a guy with value that could net us a better overall player.  I love his game when he's attacking the rim, but for some reason, he's been extremely reluctant to take it inside (even though he has the quickness to get wherever he wants on the court), and he's been settling for jumpers way too often, which haven't really been falling.  I definitely think you see what's out there for him this summer... perhaps we could also unload Evans or Green in the process. 

Offline Skates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
    • View Profile
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2009, 04:39:49 PM »
Statistical analysis suggests that the Sixers are well above average at Point Guard.  Each of the five postions performance and the performance of their counterparts on the opposing teams shows where each team is competitive and where it isn't based on their accumulated PER.

Obviously the best team would be one where your team has the best player in the league at every position.  But the salary cap generally makes that impossible, indeed if you're team is lucky and you manage to draft them, good luck keeping all of them under contract as the rest of the league bids for their services.

The truth is that the best teams only have players at a few positions where they are dominant. Even last year's champs, the Boston Celtics doesn't have a single player that ranks first at their position.  Here are their ranking per position: PG-5, SG-3, SF-3, PF-7, C-19

Compare that with Phila.'s rankings:  PG-3, SG-20, SF-2, PF-16, C-20

Clearly, improving our play at point guard won't give us much benefit, compared with improving our play at Shooting guard, (isn't it obvious by now that you want Andre Iguodala there?) And the poor play at Center and PF indicates the rotation could be modified by giving Speights and Ratliff more minutes, at the expense of Green, Dalembert and Evans, who are all substandard players who actually hurt the Sixers when they're on the floor. 

This ranking also shows that if we can keep our point guard and small forward performance prowess, that by making some improvement at SG and the big positions the Sixers could become a very competitive team in the playoffs.  It also shows the deficiencies of the coaching staff- when they continue to put the same people at the same positions and continue to get substandard results.

You miss the point, as do the statistical analyses to some extent.  I never said Miiler or Lou aren't good players, they are, they are just poor fits for this team, especially together.  Why?  Defense, they both suck at it.  Your point about the Celtics rankings from last year illustrates the point perfectly, they were not the best at any one position, but the pieces fit well together and their defense was outstanding (one of the reasons I want Thibodeau coaching our team next year).

We suck at PF because Brand got hurt, Speights is young, Young does not rebound or block shots like a PF and few of Reggie's good qualities show up in stats.  Young is looking more and more like he should be able to switch permanently to SF after another offseason of working on his handle and perfecting the form on his jumper a little more.  That will move Iggy to the SG spot, correctly identified as our weakest position by far. 

A healthy Brand and a year older and stronger Speights will help improve their rankings at C and PF considerably, with Sammy being Sammy.  Jason Smith's return might help a little too.

What will that team need from their back-up swing man, and starting and back-up PG's?  Outside shooting, primarily of the three point variety, and ball hawking, dribble penetration stopping defense.  When Miller or Lou become reliable at either of those skills on a consistent basis, they will fill the bill, until then no thanks.  My preference would be to move Lou for a quality swing man that fits the descrition above and draft a PG with those desired skills to back up Miller for a couple of years, with Miller on a 2+option year deal. 

There is a reason that teams with deep playoff aspirations did not make a real grab at Miller at the deadline, despite his excellent offensive numbers in a lot of categories.  You can win some with Miller at the point, more so if he has a good defensive back-up, but he is not going to lead a team to a championship any time soon, i.e., ever.  On the Sixers he is even a worse fit because he does not shoot the three well in any volume.

Offline bebopdeluxe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2009, 08:45:47 PM »
Well...Miller hasn't exactly covered himself in glory these past two games.  Chasing smaller, quicker PG's for 35 minutes a game will do that to you.

To be honest, I hope that he hits the wall HARD again this season...just like he did last April.  That might be the only way that Stefanski doesn't do something idiotic like offer the guy a 3 year/$25 million deal this summer.

Assuming that Iggy is our 2 and Thad is our 3, does ANYBODY out there think that Andre Miller can take this team deep into the playoffs over the next 2-3 years?

I sure don't.

Offline DuckyNinja

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: This team does not have a legitimate PG
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2009, 10:40:51 PM »
Well...Miller hasn't exactly covered himself in glory these past two games.  Chasing smaller, quicker PG's for 35 minutes a game will do that to you.

To be honest, I hope that he hits the wall HARD again this season...just like he did last April.  That might be the only way that Stefanski doesn't do something idiotic like offer the guy a 3 year/$25 million deal this summer.

Assuming that Iggy is our 2 and Thad is our 3, does ANYBODY out there think that Andre Miller can take this team deep into the playoffs over the next 2-3 years?

I sure don't.

I don't think Miller can take a team deep into the playoffs regardless of who he's playing with.  He's awful defensively, and when he's not good offensively (like tonight, when he had 1 assist in the last 3 quarters and shot like shit), he's absolutely unplayable.  I really want to see them try Iggy at PG at some point before this season is over.  Run him with Green/Ivey, Thad, Speights, and Dalembert and see what happens.  I know Iggy at PG didn't work last time, but I also think this is a totally different team from the last time we tried it and I think he can handle it with a combo guard helping him out.

I think the economy is on our side here.  Nobody's going to be getting long term big money deals this offseason.  NO BK SPECIALS ED!