Author Topic: OT - Now what?  (Read 5038 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 12:00:53 PM »
Rick,

There are PLENTY of US owned construction firms in the US that work on our roads, bridges, and other infrastructure projects.  On top of that there are engineering consulting firms that are US owned that tend to do most of the design for some of our infrastructure.  When it comes to building water treatment plants, waste water treatment plants, and anything that falls under the states department of transportation that is mainly done by US owned construction firms.  I can't even think of a single foreign owned construction firm that I've seen who has worked on various projects I've been involved with directly or indirectly.

For example there is a number of highway projects in Utah that were (I say were because they've been partially stalled) done by two US owned construction firms.  Most of the design was sent out to US owned engineering consulting firms and the rest was done in house at UDOT.  Obama does not need to play business creator nor do I think we want him to.

wk,

Nearly all work in the US can be "outsourced", military stuff is what is kept close to home but nearly everything else can, and has, gone oversees to some extent.  Contruction materials can NOT be "outsourced" because it is cost prohibited.  The only exception, under very rare circumstances, is the cement in concrete but in the end, concrete has to be made on US soil anyways so the cement is typically from the US.  No US company in the rock and sand industry is not worried about foriegn competition, they are only worried about demand.  When it comes to EVERYTHING under the sun, especially construction materials, the old saying goes "if it can't be grown, it has to be mined". Think about everything around you...if it was grown it was made from mining materials...phones/PC's/bottles/dry wall/steele/pens/electronics/etc.....
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"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

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"And if not for that white greed"
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Offline westkoast

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 12:13:35 PM »
Rick,

There are PLENTY of US owned construction firms in the US that work on our roads, bridges, and other infrastructure projects.  On top of that there are engineering consulting firms that are US owned that tend to do most of the design for some of our infrastructure.  When it comes to building water treatment plants, waste water treatment plants, and anything that falls under the states department of transportation that is mainly done by US owned construction firms.  I can't even think of a single foreign owned construction firm that I've seen who has worked on various projects I've been involved with directly or indirectly.

For example there is a number of highway projects in Utah that were (I say were because they've been partially stalled) done by two US owned construction firms.  Most of the design was sent out to US owned engineering consulting firms and the rest was done in house at UDOT.  Obama does not need to play business creator nor do I think we want him to.

wk,

Nearly all work in the US can be "outsourced", military stuff is what is kept close to home but nearly everything else can, and has, gone oversees to some extent.  Contruction materials can NOT be "outsourced" because it is cost prohibited.  The only exception, under very rare circumstances, is the cement in concrete but in the end, concrete has to be made on US soil anyways so the cement is typically from the US.  No US company in the rock and sand industry is not worried about foriegn competition, they are only worried about demand.  When it comes to EVERYTHING under the sun, especially construction materials, the old saying goes "if it can't be grown, it has to be mined". Think about everything around you...if it was grown it was made from mining materials...phones/PC's/bottles/dry wall/steele/pens/electronics/etc.....

I am not saying it can't be but it is not.  At least from my involvement in the engineering industry specifically in DOT and Water/Waste Water treatment plants I have not seen it.

Materials?  Sure.  Ted may have heard of Rio Tinto, that is a new client of ours.  I know they are foreign owned.  What I was speaking on was Rick's statement about Barack Obama needing to create American construction companies because so many of ours are foreign owned. 
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 12:23:40 PM »
I am not saying it can't be but it is not.  At least from my involvement in the engineering industry specifically in DOT and Water/Waste Water treatment plants I have not seen it.

Materials?  Sure.  Ted may have heard of Rio Tinto, that is a new client of ours.  I know they are foreign owned.  What I was speaking on was Rick's statement about Barack Obama needing to create American construction companies because so many of ours are foreign owned. 

While the materials companies may be foriegn owned, I think one or two of the top companies is, the material has to come from US soil.  So whatever company has reserves on US soil, they have in insurmountable advantage in providing the materials for the infrustructure projects Obama has promised funding for, that's all I'm saying.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline westkoast

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 12:41:48 PM »
I am not saying it can't be but it is not.  At least from my involvement in the engineering industry specifically in DOT and Water/Waste Water treatment plants I have not seen it.

Materials?  Sure.  Ted may have heard of Rio Tinto, that is a new client of ours.  I know they are foreign owned.  What I was speaking on was Rick's statement about Barack Obama needing to create American construction companies because so many of ours are foreign owned. 

While the materials companies may be foriegn owned, I think one or two of the top companies is, the material has to come from US soil.  So whatever company has reserves on US soil, they have in insurmountable advantage in providing the materials for the infrustructure projects Obama has promised funding for, that's all I'm saying.

Either way American companies will be making money in some way (design, construction, or materials).  A lot of construction projects have just stalled out due to funding.  The guys at the Utah Department of Transportation told me something like 50 projects were halted.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 01:28:36 PM »
The bottom line is that public spending is INFLATIONARY.  While it's true that we need investment in infrastructure, it is a net cost to us, that doesn't help with our deficit.

It is the Dollar that you need to pay attention to.  When it goes, and IMO, it is inevitable that it will, only precious metals will go up.  Other commodities may, but if the whole world outside of China is experiencing negative growth, just how much demand will there be for copper or even oil?  FCX, Freeport McMoran Copper & Gold sits on the largest copper and gold mine known to exist, Grassburg, in Indonesia.  They combined with Phelps Dodge to become the largest copper supplier in the world.  The stock has been well over $120 a share.  It has plummeted down to $22.67 today, and the drop has occurred over a 5 month span. It has been in a steady trading range between $17 and $32.00 since last November.  Ordinarily, I would say that stock is a bargain at these levels. But no one is buying it yet.  The cash-out value of their mines is probably worth a lot more than what the stock goes for now. 

Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 02:02:00 PM »
Most dominant societies such as the United States nearly always fail from within because they become too top-heavy. By outsourcing manufacturing and basic service jobs, you tend to make a society full of people with expectations of being white collar workers with no worker bees. Ancient Rome fell because no one wanted to be a military grunt to protect it. They relied on non-Romans, or "outsourced" military personnel, who were only in it for payment, not loyalty.

As for Obama hitting the floor running, he has, WOW. The first thing he did was reverse some late decisions made by Bush, such as stem cell research and bioenergy alternatives. I am assuming you were joking about your first comment and rick, being rick, needed to fully respond to it without that consideration.

Plus, Obama has already done the one thing that gives us all optimism for the future of our country - hope.

Without hope, which truly was non-existent the last three years <in particular> under Bush, no one was likely to step up and create those new jobs, solve the energy problems, feed the hungry, and protect victims of disasters.  The Kennedy mantra of doing it yourself for the good of all has been openly solicited by Obama to encourage Americans to help solve America's problems.

Maybe if he can convince Detroit to stop manufacturing cars that require rain forest fuel and Giant Panda blood to run on and commit to creating a car that runs on a renewable energy source, we can stop relying on the whims of OPEC countries.   
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Lurker

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2009, 02:13:03 PM »
Maybe if he can convince Detroit to stop manufacturing cars that require rain forest fuel and Giant Panda blood to run on and commit to creating a car that runs on a renewable energy source, we can stop relying on the whims of OPEC countries.   

GM is pressing forward with their electric car that will be powered with batteries ASSEMBLED in good old America.  Problem is that the fuel cells and other materials that go into the batteries are being made in foreign countries.  The world economy is too far intertwined to have the US become isolationist and prosper.




And Rick, most people cannot "roll out" of their 401k while still working.  That is an option when you quit your job.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2009, 02:40:35 PM »
GM is pressing forward with their electric car that will be powered with batteries ASSEMBLED in good old America.  Problem is that the fuel cells and other materials that go into the batteries are being made in foreign countries.  The world economy is too far intertwined to have the US become isolationist and prosper.

The outsourcing of manufacturing jobs is not going to change. Which means the United States must develop jobs in other fields to stay on top. That would be in the development and design areas. Research. Creating alternatives. All the things that Detroit stopped doing, to any degree of success, years ago.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 03:10:06 PM »
As for Obama hitting the floor running, he has, WOW. The first thing he did was reverse some late decisions made by Bush, such as stem cell research and bioenergy alternatives. I am assuming you were joking about your first comment and rick, being rick, needed to fully respond to it without that consideration.

Yes, I thought it was pretty obvious.

Yet, there are plenty of people complaining about what the stock market did yesterday.  :D

I do appreciate the response though, obviously we all seem to care or have some stake in what's going on in our gov.  Half my poker buddies wouldn't care if Osama Bin Laden had been sworn in cause they don't see 2 feet past their own little world.

I completely agree that there is "hope" and to a certain extent some "optimism" about our future floating in the air.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Lurker

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2009, 03:14:32 PM »
GM is pressing forward with their electric car that will be powered with batteries ASSEMBLED in good old America.  Problem is that the fuel cells and other materials that go into the batteries are being made in foreign countries.  The world economy is too far intertwined to have the US become isolationist and prosper.

The outsourcing of manufacturing jobs is not going to change. Which means the United States must develop jobs in other fields to stay on top. That would be in the development and design areas. Research. Creating alternatives. All the things that Detroit stopped doing, to any degree of success, years ago.

I agree.  But where will America find those innovators?  Surely not products of our educational systems.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2009, 04:30:04 PM »
Half my poker buddies wouldn't care if Osama Bin Laden had been sworn in cause they don't see 2 feet past their own little world.


To me, there is nothing more un-American then that perception by some people. I know a few like this as well. My only question to you is, how much money to you strip from these people every week in poker? It must be like stealing from babies.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2009, 04:32:06 PM »
GM is pressing forward with their electric car that will be powered with batteries ASSEMBLED in good old America.  Problem is that the fuel cells and other materials that go into the batteries are being made in foreign countries.  The world economy is too far intertwined to have the US become isolationist and prosper.

The outsourcing of manufacturing jobs is not going to change. Which means the United States must develop jobs in other fields to stay on top. That would be in the development and design areas. Research. Creating alternatives. All the things that Detroit stopped doing, to any degree of success, years ago.

I agree.  But where will America find those innovators?  Surely not products of our educational systems.

That is exactly where they will come from. The catch is, most will not be American born. Our educational system attracts the brightest minds from around the world. We just need to keep them here in the U.S. after they graduate instead of sending them home, which the current policy regarding foreign students has been for some time.   
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline westkoast

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2009, 04:49:37 PM »
GM is pressing forward with their electric car that will be powered with batteries ASSEMBLED in good old America.  Problem is that the fuel cells and other materials that go into the batteries are being made in foreign countries.  The world economy is too far intertwined to have the US become isolationist and prosper.

The outsourcing of manufacturing jobs is not going to change. Which means the United States must develop jobs in other fields to stay on top. That would be in the development and design areas. Research. Creating alternatives. All the things that Detroit stopped doing, to any degree of success, years ago.

I agree.  But where will America find those innovators?  Surely not products of our educational systems.

Why not? 

We have some very very bright people who attend Berkley and MIT.  Americans born and raised here.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2009, 05:03:12 PM »
Half my poker buddies wouldn't care if Osama Bin Laden had been sworn in cause they don't see 2 feet past their own little world.


To me, there is nothing more un-American then that perception by some people. I know a few like this as well. My only question to you is, how much money to you strip from these people every week in poker? It must be like stealing from babies.

There are two other guys at my game that I consider good.  One guy plays solid like me, the other guy is uber-aggressive.  The rest are crazy card players.  You cannot put them on any hand or any play, it's impossible to go after guys like that with any skill.  You just have to catch them when you have a moster hand.  Playing guys like that in my regular game prepares me for all the "Asian" drunken boxer kung-fu style of poker they play at the local casinos.  What's the old saying about the best swordsman in Europe would rather fight the 2nd best swordsman in Europe rather than the worst swordsman in Europe because the worst swordsman in Europe is unpredicatable.

It's strange how living "ghetto" sort of shields you from concerns such as the value of the dollar, outsourcing of jobs, billion dollar gov bailouts, the impact of cheap consumable products, credit freezes, deteriorating educational system, the health care system, social security, taxes, and the like....actually...I like to live "ghetto" on the weekend. :)
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Now what?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2009, 06:15:25 PM »
....actually...I like to live "ghetto" on the weekend. :)

Most of us have a hard time differentiating your weekend WOW-tude from your week day.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."