Redistribution of Wealth

[rickortreat]

In the first place most of you are so ignorant of economics, that your opinions and logic are flawed.

Whether your taxes are raised or not, if the country prints up more dollars than it's citizens create wealth, causes the value of the dollar to go down.  So, you will become poorer as a result of your governments malfeasance whether it's formalized as taxes or hidden as inflation.  SO when you pay more for gas because the dollar is worth less, that is just as much of a tax as if the money was taken from you, but you pay less for the gas.

Socialism is the government creating the money and determining how the resources are allocated to the society.  The federal bail-out of private investment and commercial banks and the purchase of shares is the epitomy of socialism, and it's really a stupid thing to do, since the money is going to support businesses that would otherwise have failed.  That's not just socialism, that's socialism without a clue- you never should support businesses that fail as a result of their own incompetence!

Further since so many of the laws on the books were lobbied for by these failed businesses,  both the businesses and the government need to be overhauled.  If the government is supporting these businesses, they are doing so at the expense of everyone else! Since we're paying to keep them afloat, it should be done on terms favorable to we the people, not the businesses.  Some of these assholes think their still entitled to bonuses.  You should only get a bonus when you produce.  When you fail like these people have, you shouldn't even have a job anymore!

There is no more welfare- people who get public funds have to pay it back.  You can thank Clinton for that!

Republicans are the worst liars and politicians at present.  They have run this country into the ground with their failed policies and they don't have any new ideas.  It's not entirely clear how Obama will deal with the problems, but putting a greater burden on the wealthy while trying to help the lower and middle class is a start in the right direction. Especially since the rich have gotten so much wealthier than the rest of us over the past 8 years, thanks to tax breaks directed at them by their Republican stooges.

No one likes paying taxes, and it's a responsibility we all share.  The top 10 percent have 90% of the wealth, and since they own 90% of the country they should pay 90% of the taxes.  Since the rest of us poor people don't have jobs a lot of us end up in the military putting our lives on the line for our country. The rich are very happy we're out there protecting them and extending American military influence.  Why shouldn't they?  We're protecting them!  And they're so grateful, they cut benefits to the wounded vets.

Any society grows it's wealth from the bottom up.  Poor people when they get money buy clothes, homes and appliances.  The businesses who provide these things make the money from the poor people and their owners get wealthy in the process.  That is fine, and fair, and it is also capitalism.  The business earns the money by providing you with goods and services.

But now, in this society the rich think of the whole world as theirs and sacrifice the American worker for overseas labor that is cheaper.  That's why America is going down the tubes, because no one is looking out for the little guy, and as a result we are all getting poorer and more and more dissatisfied.

[Reality]

2. The Obama/McCain tax plans actually do pretty much what each candidate says they will, but not to the extremes their opponents claim. While Obama's plans would tax the wealthier people, it would not put much of a dent in their lifestyles, to say the least. McCain's would benefit the big companies and I am sure some of that money would open up some economic doors. However, no one who understands how capitalism works could possibly believe only a fraction of that money would drop out of the pockets of the CEO's.

Frankly, anyone who actually supports the traditional, and completely failed, system that has been in place the last eight years has a serious problem with differentiating between getting their teeth kicked in by the people currently in charge, and chosing a candidate who will, instead, stomp on their balls for four more years.

For those who prefer this to continue, that is called masochism and I suggest you hire a professional to satisfy your prurient needs elsewhere without involving politics and the rest of us who would prefer to have the kicking and stomping stop.

Reported all over today (I saw it on Lou Dobbs) that the 150 billion bailout paid to the 9 banks for the purpose of LENDING the money to consumers, hence get the economy moving again, the banks -surprise- are hording the money and not lending it out.  Neither the Demoncrats nor the Repugs who signed off on this are doing a thing about it.  Its presumed they and the banks, especially the CEOs, were in on this buyout scam together.  Lovely.

[jemagee]

In the first place most of you are so ignorant of economics, that your opinions and logic are flawed.

You know rick, i've never met anyone with less tact than me in my life

Until now...

[westkoast]

In the first place most of you are so ignorant of economics, that your opinions and logic are flawed.

Many of the opinions in this thread don't require your "expert knowledge of economics" buddy.  I don't need to have a degree in economics for the points I was making. 

Whether your taxes are raised or not, if the country prints up more dollars than it's citizens create wealth, causes the value of the dollar to go down.  So, you will become poorer as a result of your governments malfeasance whether it's formalized as taxes or hidden as inflation.  SO when you pay more for gas because the dollar is worth less, that is just as much of a tax as if the money was taken from you, but you pay less for the gas.

We are not talking about getting poorer in this sense Rick, you just want to hear yourself talk.  We understand how the dollar works.  We know it loses value.  Save these lectures for your younger relatives.  You've already "schooled" us enough thanks.

We pay more for gas not just because the dollar is worth less but because there is a tax on all gas sales to help improve our roads.  Regardless if the dollar is strong, weak, regular, or whatever.  There is an added tax onto a gallon of gas to improve roads.  That is taking money I work for and re-distributing it for the common good of the California residents.  Which comes back to my point I made earlier.  You know the one that did not require a PHD to make.

Socialism is the government creating the money and determining how the resources are allocated to the society.  The federal bail-out of private investment and commercial banks and the purchase of shares is the epitomy of socialism, and it's really a stupid thing to do, since the money is going to support businesses that would otherwise have failed.  That's not just socialism, that's socialism without a clue- you never should support businesses that fail as a result of their own incompetence!

Right.....the Alaskan government did just that.  That is what Sarah Palin touts like a badge of honor.  That is why I said I don't want to hear Sarah Palin or her supporters talk about that.  Again, where does the where does deep knowledge of the economy play into that?

I really don't see the point of you making that comment other then to blow some hot air just to blow it.  You know more about the economy than I do but that really has little to do with the points being made here.

[SPURSX3]

In the first place most of you are so ignorant of economics, that your opinions and logic are flawed.

You know rick, i've never met anyone with less tact than me in my life

Until now...

It's ok.  He pops out of his cave every so often to spout how valuable gold is and how the economy is failing...   Just let him rant and he will go back into his cave for a while....

[WayOutWest]

In the first place most of you are so ignorant of economics, that your opinions and logic are flawed.

Whether your taxes are raised or not, if the country prints up more dollars than it's citizens create wealth, causes the value of the dollar to go down.  So, you will become poorer as a result of your governments malfeasance whether it's formalized as taxes or hidden as inflation.  SO when you pay more for gas because the dollar is worth less, that is just as much of a tax as if the money was taken from you, but you pay less for the gas.

Socialism is the government creating the money and determining how the resources are allocated to the society.  The federal bail-out of private investment and commercial banks and the purchase of shares is the epitomy of socialism, and it's really a stupid thing to do, since the money is going to support businesses that would otherwise have failed.  That's not just socialism, that's socialism without a clue- you never should support businesses that fail as a result of their own incompetence!

Further since so many of the laws on the books were lobbied for by these failed businesses,  both the businesses and the government need to be overhauled.  If the government is supporting these businesses, they are doing so at the expense of everyone else! Since we're paying to keep them afloat, it should be done on terms favorable to we the people, not the businesses.  Some of these assholes think their still entitled to bonuses.  You should only get a bonus when you produce.  When you fail like these people have, you shouldn't even have a job anymore!

There is no more welfare- people who get public funds have to pay it back.  You can thank Clinton for that!

Republicans are the worst liars and politicians at present.  They have run this country into the ground with their failed policies and they don't have any new ideas.  It's not entirely clear how Obama will deal with the problems, but putting a greater burden on the wealthy while trying to help the lower and middle class is a start in the right direction. Especially since the rich have gotten so much wealthier than the rest of us over the past 8 years, thanks to tax breaks directed at them by their Republican stooges.

No one likes paying taxes, and it's a responsibility we all share.  The top 10 percent have 90% of the wealth, and since they own 90% of the country they should pay 90% of the taxes.  Since the rest of us poor people don't have jobs a lot of us end up in the military putting our lives on the line for our country. The rich are very happy we're out there protecting them and extending American military influence.  Why shouldn't they?  We're protecting them!  And they're so grateful, they cut benefits to the wounded vets.

Any society grows it's wealth from the bottom up.  Poor people when they get money buy clothes, homes and appliances.  The businesses who provide these things make the money from the poor people and their owners get wealthy in the process.  That is fine, and fair, and it is also capitalism.  The business earns the money by providing you with goods and services.

But now, in this society the rich think of the whole world as theirs and sacrifice the American worker for overseas labor that is cheaper.  That's why America is going down the tubes, because no one is looking out for the little guy, and as a result we are all getting poorer and more and more dissatisfied.

Rick,

STFU with your "ignorant of economics" comments unless you can actually add SOMETHING to the discussion.  You added NOTHING to this thread.  Every point you stated has already been made, you sound like an ignorant parrot.   

[Ted]

We know it loses value.

*In condescending tone*
Ahem . . . westkoast . . . I believe you meant to say "We know it looses value." 

Please remember who you're talking to.

[Joe Vancil]

2. The Obama/McCain tax plans actually do pretty much what each candidate says they will, but not to the extremes their opponents claim. While Obama's plans would tax the wealthier people, it would not put much of a dent in their lifestyles, to say the least. McCain's would benefit the big companies and I am sure some of that money would open up some economic doors. However, no one who understands how capitalism works could possibly believe only a fraction of that money would drop out of the pockets of the CEO's.

Frankly, anyone who actually supports the traditional, and completely failed, system that has been in place the last eight years has a serious problem with differentiating between getting their teeth kicked in by the people currently in charge, and chosing a candidate who will, instead, stomp on their balls for four more years.

For those who prefer this to continue, that is called masochism and I suggest you hire a professional to satisfy your prurient needs elsewhere without involving politics and the rest of us who would prefer to have the kicking and stomping stop.

Reported all over today (I saw it on Lou Dobbs) that the 150 billion bailout paid to the 9 banks for the purpose of LENDING the money to consumers, hence get the economy moving again, the banks -surprise- are hording the money and not lending it out.  Neither the Demoncrats nor the Repugs who signed off on this are doing a thing about it.  Its presumed they and the banks, especially the CEOs, were in on this buyout scam together.  Lovely.

And I'm supposed to be surprised by that?

Look - if the banks were tightening credit, it's because they saw too much risk.  See that, and any bank will tighten credit.  Clearing away bad debt from their balance sheets DOES NOT make loosening credit when there's significant risk a GOOD policy.

The banks will do what is in their best interest.  The bailout bill was the classical example of the public knowing not to do it, but the mismangament in Washington saying, "We know better," and once again proving that they're completely clueless.

[Lurker]

The biggest redistribution of wealth system in America is called Social Security.  Just try to get that repealed as a socialistic program.

[JoMal]

My ignorance of how the economy works, rick, is just about covered with the "supply and demand" aspect of it.

The banks are still recovering from the collapse of the loan industry and bad mortgages, so maybe solidifying their foundation is the first order of business. Eventually, the banking industry will realyze that their primary business is to put money into circulation so it can make more money - I believe that is pretty much how "actually" money is made in a Capitalist society, rick.

Money is a terrible master but an excellent servant. Money begets money.  You've got to have money to make money.

Any questions?

[westkoast]

Thought you guys might want to read this since the 700 dollar bail out came up in here.  Didn't think this warranted it's own thread.  A while back I emailed Senator Barbara Boxer (or should I say her office) in response to what was going on.  Here is the reply I received:

Thank you for contacting me regarding the financial rescue legislation (H.R.1424).  I appreciate hearing from you on this critical issue.

 

The fundamentals of our economy have been shaken, and Americans are deeply concerned.  When Secretary Paulson and Chairman Bernanke placed an urgent phone call a few weeks ago to Congress to say we needed emergency action to prevent a major financial meltdown, I expected they would come forward with a plan that was targeted and reasonable, with appropriate oversight and taxpayer protections.

 

Unfortunately, what they brought us was a $700 billion blank check, which they asked us to sign with no questions asked. This plan contained no oversight, no taxpayer equity, and no control over CEO pay.  I strongly opposed this proposal - and thanks to your phone calls, e-mails, and letters, Congress stopped it in its tracks.

 

The Senate made major improvements designed to strengthen our economy and protect our taxpayers.  Instead of a blank check, the Senate plan included significant Congressional oversight, equity for taxpayers, curbs on executive compensation, an increase in FDIC insurance protection for bank depositors, middle-class tax relief, and job-creating tax incentives for renewable energy.  The bill passed the Senate by an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote of 74-25 and the House by a vote of 263-171.

 

These were very important changes.  But let me be honest: There were still aspects of this package that I didn't like.  I preferred the government acquiring more equity instead of toxic assets.  I wanted the package to be put forward in smaller installments and to include more checks and balances to make sure it would work.

 

For me, the deciding factor in my Yes vote was information I received from the State of California.  I was told by the Treasurer's office that without access to credit, which is the goal of this legislation, California wouldn't be able to sell voter-approved highway, school, and water bonds that are desperately needed for our economy and the creation of good-paying new jobs.  In addition, I was told by the Governor's office, that without action, our state might be forced to withhold funds for law enforcement, schools, and other needed services.  This would bring our state to its knees and many middle-class families would be in deep trouble.  Small businesses are beginning to tell me they cannot get lines of credit to meet payroll, as well.

 

Rest assured, I will continue to speak out forcefully about the failures that led us to this place and keep working with my colleagues to strengthen confidence in our markets, protect the American taxpayers, and enact regulatory reform to ensure that we don't end up in this mess again.

 

Again, thank you for writing to me about this very important matter.  Even though you may feel frustrated with the outcome of the legislation that passed, your voice absolutely resulted in the enactment of a better bill.  Feel free to contact me again about any issue of importance to you.


Barbara Boxer
United States Senator

[Joe Vancil]

I e-mailed Kit Bond and Claire McCaskill - out Missouri Senators, as well as John McCain.

I got NOTHING back from any of them.

SEND THEM BACK HOME.

[Lurker]

I e-mailed Kit Bond and Claire McCaskill - out Missouri Senators, as well as John McCain.

I got NOTHING back from any of them.

SEND THEM BACK HOME.

I e-mailed both my senators and rep also...nothing but the auto reply thank you BS.  But my congressman did vote against it.

However this leads into another issue: robocalls. 

A little background about my congressional district - it is the one of the largest districts geographically in the country.  It stretches from the western half of San Antonio all the way to El Paso and includes white well-to-do suburbia and Hispanic innercity neighborhoods as well as barrios along the border and just about everything in between.  And this is after a Supreme Court ruling that said the district as redrawn after the 2000 census was one of the worse gerrymandering deals ever put together (Tom Delay's legacy to Texas - a reason it is so deeply red).

My current congressman (Dem) was a rep before the redrawn districts caused him to lose to a Republican Hispanic with a very favorable political name in the region although he wasn't related.  After the district was redrawn by the court there was no incumbent and the guy won "re-election" in 2006.  Now this congressman moved much more towards a centrist position then previously and voted against the bailout.  His Republican opponent in this election is a very well respected former city and county leader who has even refused pay raises as a county commissioner the past 6 (?) years to underline his fiscal conservatism.  He also is more centrist than the Republican party on social issues.  I found myself really torn between two soild candidates.  Basically this was the only race I hadn't fully decided on.

But then about a 3 weeks ago I started receiving 2-3 robocalls a night for the incumbent's campaign.  Not just his recorded voice but also Hilliary's...as well as other state/local Dem leaders.  And not just telling me how great he was but also how bad the other guy is.  Not to mention how it was my "duty" to vote a straight Dem ticket.  Talk about blowing it.  When I hit the booth this past week the decision was easy.

Of course I did a follow e-mail to his congressional office as well as his campaign HQ notifying him of how I thought he did a great job...up until I started getting the robocalls.  And that using what IMO is a very irritating campaign tactic cost him my...and my wife's...votes.

[WayOutWest]

We pay more for gas not just because the dollar is worth less but because there is a tax on all gas sales to help improve our roads.  Regardless if the dollar is strong, weak, regular, or whatever.  There is an added tax onto a gallon of gas to improve roads.  That is taking money I work for and re-distributing it for the common good of the California residents.  Which comes back to my point I made earlier.  You know the one that did not require a PHD to make.

FYI WK,

The gas tax dollars are NOT going to the roads.  Those dollars are being "redistriibuted" to other gov programs.  The company I work for counts on gov money for roads to do buisness and that money hasn't been there for YEARS.

[westkoast]

We pay more for gas not just because the dollar is worth less but because there is a tax on all gas sales to help improve our roads.  Regardless if the dollar is strong, weak, regular, or whatever.  There is an added tax onto a gallon of gas to improve roads.  That is taking money I work for and re-distributing it for the common good of the California residents.  Which comes back to my point I made earlier.  You know the one that did not require a PHD to make.

FYI WK,

The gas tax dollars are NOT going to the roads.  Those dollars are being "redistriibuted" to other gov programs.  The company I work for counts on gov money for roads to do buisness and that money hasn't been there for YEARS.

Maybe some of it is.  Not all of it can be.  We do a lot of work with state's department of transportation and they seem to have money for projects.

Plus that was the big argument in the summer between McCain and Obama when they were discussing that 'gas tax free' weekend for the American people.  They said that tons of cash would be lost and roads would not get improved all over the country.  Are you saying that was hog wash?