Author Topic: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race  (Read 12401 times)

Offline JoMal

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2008, 12:11:27 PM »
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The very fact that many folks WILL vote when the topic is Gay Marriage should be an indicator of something.  Instead, it's a "red herring."

Probably, but I doubt it's an indicator of what you think it is.

Fear and hatred are good political motivators I've always found.


Well, I think it's an indcator that a significant portion of people are against the idea.  Some, so much that they'll go about things in the wrong way of dealing with it.

Which, of course, takes me off on the tangent of legislating through the judiciary, which is just as wrong.

The real problem is a simple one:  this needs to be taken to the voters and the legislatures - NOT to the State Constitutions and NOT to the Judiciary.


No Joe, the REAL problem is that this type of legislation is trying to legislate sexual preference, which is like trying to legislate against having too many bowel movements.

I disagree completely that it's legislating sexual preference.  It is opening the door to an alternative lifestyle by creating an acknowledgement of it legislatively - just as marriage is recognized legislatively.

You see, I think the gay rights movement should have used the LEGISLATURES to gain acknowledgement - which is the proper method - rather than the COURTS.

And I am saying neither legislation NOR the courts can rule on sexual preference, which is REALLY what is being asked. Providing rights to gay couples should not require an amendment to the constitution. Opponents are trying to deny access to benefits they would qualify for through recognition of marriage between gays, but what they are really doing is trying to legislate homosexuality out of America and forcing them to comply.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

jemagee

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2008, 12:14:56 PM »
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Well, I think it's an indcator that a significant portion of people are against the idea.  Some, so much that they'll go about things in the wrong way of dealing with it.

Depends on the people you know and choose to hang out with, most of the people I know or hang out with couldn't give a crap who gets married, but i don't tend to hang out with homophobic bigots.



jemagee

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2008, 12:15:42 PM »
JoMal is so much smarter and eloquent than me from now on i'm just going to agree with what he writes

Offline Ted

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2008, 12:40:30 PM »
Just want to gauge the tenor of the board on this one:

Would it be fair to conclude that if you support Proposition 8 for any reason, you are a homophobic bigot?
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

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Offline westkoast

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2008, 12:59:02 PM »
Just want to gauge the tenor of the board on this one:

Would it be fair to conclude that if you support Proposition 8 for any reason, you are a homophobic bigot?

No.  You have every right to not agree with homosexuality as someone has the right to agree with it or take part in it.  You could also be against Prop 8 but still not agree with homosexuality being morally okay.  If you vote NO on 8 that doesn't automatically say you condone homosexuality.

Honestly to me...the issue is more about the government telling PEOPLE what they can or cannot do moreso then it is a moral issue.  If the government can essentially tell PEOPLE  they cannot be married what else are they going to say we cannot do?  I don't care what PEOPLE do behind closed doors.  I also don't care to tell PEOPLE what they can do behind closed doors.  If gay people want to marry and be partners in the home, I say let them.  I also don't think it should be up to the government to make a distinction between gay PEOPLE and regular PEOPLE.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 01:01:55 PM by westkoast »
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Offline JoMal

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2008, 01:19:39 PM »
Just want to gauge the tenor of the board on this one:

Would it be fair to conclude that if you support Proposition 8 for any reason, you are a homophobic bigot?

No.  You have every right to not agree with homosexuality as someone has the right to agree with it or take part in it.  You could also be against Prop 8 but still not agree with homosexuality being morally okay.  If you vote NO on 8 that doesn't automatically say you condone homosexuality.

Honestly to me...the issue is more about the government telling PEOPLE what they can or cannot do moreso then it is a moral issue.  If the government can essentially tell PEOPLE  they cannot be married what else are they going to say we cannot do?  I don't care what PEOPLE do behind closed doors.  I also don't care to tell PEOPLE what they can do behind closed doors.  If gay people want to marry and be partners in the home, I say let them.  I also don't think it should be up to the government to make a distinction between gay PEOPLE and regular PEOPLE.

wk -

I rarely do this, but I am in complete compliance with this take and especially the eloquence in which you stated it.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Ted

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2008, 01:47:17 PM »
No.  You have every right to not agree with homosexuality as someone has the right to agree with it or take part in it.  You could also be against Prop 8 but still not agree with homosexuality being morally okay.  If you vote NO on 8 that doesn't automatically say you condone homosexuality.

Honestly to me...the issue is more about the government telling PEOPLE what they can or cannot do moreso then it is a moral issue.  If the government can essentially tell PEOPLE  they cannot be married what else are they going to say we cannot do?  I don't care what PEOPLE do behind closed doors.  I also don't care to tell PEOPLE what they can do behind closed doors.  If gay people want to marry and be partners in the home, I say let them.  I also don't think it should be up to the government to make a distinction between gay PEOPLE and regular PEOPLE.

Just to be open, I have no position on Proposition 8, and I agree with pretty much everything you say. Whether it's a choice or it's natural, I don't care what other people do behind closed doors. And I do think they should have legal rights. I think this is much more complex issue than the homos vs. bigots crowd want us to realize.

The government did not invent marriage; it adopted it. Making it a legal, civil right for anyone will have ramifications . . .

Will private, religious adoption agencies (which do A LOT of good) stay in California when state law tells them they MUST place children with same-sex couples?

How will parents, who have the ultimate right and responsibility to teach their children, feel when government-mandated sex education sessions include lessons on same-sex relations?

What will happen to a parent who demands to know which day his or her child will be taught government-mandates sex education so he can prepare the child for he or she will see? When a principal with an agenda refuses to tell him which day it will happen, and the parent refuses to leave until the principal tells does, will the parent be arrested and taken to jail?

Will private religious universities be forced to provide housing for same-sex couples?

If doctors try to transfer patients to another colleague because he or she does not feel comfortable with the morality of the procedure, can they be sued for expressing their beliefs?

Can a company fire an employee if the employee refuses to do something against his or her religious beliefs?

Can a photographer be sued for declining to photograph a same-sex couple's wedding ceremony because it went against his or her religious beliefs? Yes, she can, and she can be forced to pay the plaintiff's legal fees of almost $7,000.

Will the Boy Scouts of America lose access to government land?

NOTE: I'm not making these up. Each of these examples HAS ALREADY HAPPENED in various places; and, incidentally, none of the referenced religions is my own.

This is getting out of hand. We should be able to find a happy medium. The problem is we have extremists on each side making all of the noise, while reasonable, compassionate (and maybe even religious) people want to find a way to meet in the middle.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 02:01:20 PM by Ted »
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Offline Ted

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2008, 01:48:57 PM »
You have every right to not agree with homosexuality as someone has the right to agree with it or take part in it.

Are you sure?
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

jemagee

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2008, 02:04:24 PM »
From the commercials I've been seeing, the major proponents of prop 8 are homophobes and i feel they are targeting 'homophobic fears' by bringing up teaching in schools and such.

I personally see no rationale reason to be against gay marriage - i see religious reasons and reasons of intolerance - neither of which should be involved in making LEGAL decisions - like i said - if marriage is a religious institution - keep it there and give it NO legal bearing or benefit.



Offline Ted

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2008, 02:09:31 PM »
If marriage is a religious institution - keep it there and give it NO legal bearing or benefit.

Maybe that's the answer. It is hard for me to defend the fact that I receive benefits another cannot receive because I've been through a religious ceremony and they haven't.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

jemagee

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2008, 02:13:39 PM »
If marriage is a religious institution - keep it there and give it NO legal bearing or benefit.

Maybe that's the answer. It is hard for me to defend the fact that I receive benefits another cannot receive because I've been through a religious ceremony and they haven't.

It strikes me as inherently 'unconstitutional' that a religious ceremony bestows legal benefits - i mean isn't that what the whole separation of church and state is - or you have to come up with two 'marriages' - there's religious marriage and state marriage - and religion can have its own marriage back and refuse to accept others for whatever reasons they come up with

Offline westkoast

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2008, 02:16:45 PM »
You have every right to not agree with homosexuality as someone has the right to agree with it or take part in it.

Are you sure?

In my eyes, yes.  I think that a person has a right to not support homosexuality just as much as someone has the right to support it.  No one should be allowed to FORCE someone to think a certain way.  You can comment on a mentality and express your opinion that it is wrong.  Or you can comment on a mentality and agree.  You can voice your opinion all you want.  It is a right of this country.  Something I don't think should ever be taken away.

And Ted where do colleges provide housing for couples at all?  I didn't know they secured places for married people to stay.  Thought that was up to the person attending.  If it is on the campus I don't think they provide rooms for married people.  At least not the colleges I've been in/around.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 02:19:08 PM by westkoast »
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jemagee

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2008, 02:20:44 PM »
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And Ted where do colleges provide housing for couples at all?  I didn't know they secured places for married people to stay.  Thought that was up to the person attending.  If it is on the campus I don't think they provide rooms for married people.  At least not the colleges I've been in/around.

UCSB has married student housing...if that's what you are asking...it's not really housing on the main campus but it's housing provided by the university for married students.

I don't know if they provide it to life partners or if it's ever come up.

Offline westkoast

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2008, 02:23:26 PM »
From the commercials I've been seeing, the major proponents of prop 8 are homophobes and i feel they are targeting 'homophobic fears' by bringing up teaching in schools and such.





I agree.  The commercials have been dirty and cheap.  Could they teach about gay marriage in school?  Sure.  They could  teach about of a lot of things if the teacher decided to go that path at that moment.  A teacher could get a wild hair up their rear end and teach about Scientology and Xenu if they felt like it.  I went to California public schools my entire life and never were we taught about marriage.  Not once.

Plus I just can't help but laugh when you hear who sponsors it "The Knights of Columbus" sounds like a flippin KKK chapter.  
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jemagee

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Re: GOP unveils ad suggesting Obama has basically won presidential race
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2008, 02:27:11 PM »
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Plus I just can't help but laugh when you hear who sponsors it "The Knights of Columbus" sounds like a flippin KKK chapter. 

They aren't?

Seriously, when I was in High School (on the east coast, lower merion high school, late 80s) our 'health' teacher had some anti choice looney come in with aborted fetuses and try to scare us pretty harshly.

They neglected to realize that they had the pretty well informed son of an OB/GYN there to dispute the anti choice rhetoric...i don't think anyone had ever talked back to the person before...didn't endear me to the teacher (but that was part for the course) but i was super angry about it at the time, didn't realize then what i know now or i would have made a bigger deal about it - aborted fetuses do not belong in public schools