Author Topic: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year  (Read 3596 times)

Offline westkoast

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Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« on: October 01, 2008, 04:55:38 PM »
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=JazzForecast0809

Thoughts of a crack smoker or a legit assessment of the Jazz' chances?

He has the Lakers @ 2 and Spurs @ 5
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jemagee

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 05:14:34 PM »
He had the sixers as 3rd in the east.

What's his track record?

Offline westkoast

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2008, 05:16:46 PM »
He had the sixers as 3rd in the east.

What's his track record?

He goes strictly off stats no matter how many times he is proven wrong that stats are not the only way to determine how a basketball team or individual players will play.  To be fair he knows that the stats are not always right but that is his 'lane' that he stays in when backing up his take on teams.  Sometimes it is right, sometimes it is not.  Though most of the time it is interesting.

For example he says one of the reasons the Lakers slide to #2 is the fact that Kobe Bryant's scoring has dropped in the last 3 years.  He attributes that to strickly age/miles on Kobe's legs.  Though he did not mentioned that team scoring has shot up in that same time.
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jemagee

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2008, 06:02:41 PM »
So, what's his track record?

Offline Ted

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2008, 06:09:41 PM »
I think he's brilliant!  ;D
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

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jemagee

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 06:11:54 PM »
Hollinger has a lot of plusses and minuses, i'm just curios how he's pre-season predictions have gone in the past.

I know he predicted a rather serious drop off in Andre Miller this past season due to his age, but that didn't happen


Offline SPURSX3

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 06:12:45 PM »
Hwo can someone care about this when our economy is going down the tubes - AND TONY PARKER SAYS THIS MIGHT BE THE LAST YEAR FOR THE SPURS CORE!!    :o :o :o :o















j/k  :P
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

jemagee

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 06:17:20 PM »
Well I consider last year their last year of playoff relevance - so this year is just taking it one year too long

Offline SPURSX3

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 06:50:09 PM »
Well I consider last year their last year of playoff relevance - so this year is just taking it one year too long

yeah, atleast we have the Silver Star gunning for a title  8)................


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Stop laughing at me.   I will just go cry now ........... :P :P :P
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 07:52:07 PM »
I think what Hollinger brings is a good starting point, but not the end-all, be-all of team analysis.

For example, his analysis of the Sixers puts them at third, but doesn't necessarily consider how the addition of six new players strengthens the team dramatically.  The addition of Brand should mean that the Sixers can have an effective half-court offense, which was their primary area of weakness last season.  This makes them a much more competitive ball club all by itself, but the addition of Rush, Ivey, Ratliff, and Speights gives them much more depth and the ability to continue their same style of play. with better outside shooting and inside scoring.

In short, he uses past stats to project the future performance of a team, but does not consider how the addition of certain parts adds much more to the team than the stats would indicate. The Sixers had a point differential of less than a point by the end of the season- a .500 team basically. The addition of Brand with no subtraction, should be at least 10 games, making them a 50 game team, which is what Hollinger projects. Is he saying that Rush, Ivey, Ratliff and Speights means nothing, or that Thad Young and Louis Williams won't continue to improve?  That implies an even stronger team and therefore more than 50 wins.

Since I haven't seen the Sixers play one game yet with the new group, there's no reasonable way to project how many they should win, or how long it will take them to figure out the line-up that gets the maximum potential out of the players. But on paper, it's not unreasonable to consider them to be ranked as high as 2nd in the East, and as low as 6th.  Things will be much clearer by the mid-point of the season.

As much as I am impressed with the Jazz, I'm a lot more impressed with the Lakers and the addition of Bynum.  They were a strong rebounding team without him, but with him, they should be better on the boards than Boston, as well as a team with multiple inside and outside scoring threats. 

jemagee

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 08:13:12 PM »
Quote
I think what Hollinger brings is a good starting point, but not the end-all, be-all of team analysis.

And he never says it is, only his detractors do.  His detractors who have probably never heard of dean oliver or the APBR web site, or possibly David Berri.  It's not as large a conflict as it is in baseball mainly because basketball is probably 5-7 years behind baseball in the 'evolution' thing...but i expect guys like buzz being on HBO someday talking about the evils of basketball bloggers.

Those who are opposed to the 'new school' of analysis in any sport always seem to me to think that those in favor of the new school want to ignore the old school.  The old school fears the new school and doesn't realize that it's a pretty good ADDITION to the analysis of any sports.

Want to see an excellent example of someone who probably doesn't even understand the new but criticizes it to no end - check out firejoemorgan.com and the columns about the guy from SI - firejoemorgan is also an excellent site in general since joe morgan is probably worse than steve phillips


jemagee

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 08:18:54 PM »
Quote
In short, he uses past stats to project the future performance of a team, but does not consider how the addition of certain parts adds much more to the team than the stats would indicate. The Sixers had a point differential of less than a point by the end of the season- a .500 team basically. The addition of Brand with no subtraction, should be at least 10 games

No it really shouldn't.

And maybe he takes into consideration how new players mesh into a team or how an offensive system has to change (as mo cheeks himself said, they threw out last years playbook and now have to come up with an entire new offense)...

Elton Brand is good - Elton Brand does not bring a 10 game win swing to a team...he does make a team 25% better than they were last year.

He doesn't solve the problems the sixers had last year, a big man is great, and will draw double teams, but if your outside shooting STILL SUCKS it still sucks.

Elton brand doesn't make andre miller a better 3 point shooter, or anyone else on the sixers, he doesn't make willie green better, he doesn't make louis williams taller or more of a natural point guard.

What Elton Brand DOES hopefully is limit the offensive touches of Sam Dalembert and hopefully Sam Dalebmert won't whine about it as he has in the past when things don't go his way.

Predictions based on statistics analysis and some history and trends to point at mean a little bit more than predictions based on gut feelings and nothing else to really back em up.

At least to me

But then again to the old schoolers it won't matter because the majority will dismiss it out of hand (my own personal feeling is because they don't want to understand it or just can't)

The analysis and understanding of sports did not stop in the 80s or 90s...i don't see why so many people refuse to think they can evolve and change as our understanding of other things evolves and changes.

20 years ago cancer was uncontrolled cell growth and everyone knew it
guess what - it's not any more

Offline Ted

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 11:17:28 PM »
They were a strong rebounding team without him. 

NO. They were soft, SOFT, SOFT. Everyone knows they were soft. Bynum helps, maybe a lot; we don't know yet. But Gasol is still Gasol. And losing Turiaf, who was NOT soft, hurts. Chris Mihm will inevitably sneeze and fracture a bone somewhere below his waist. It all comes down to how strong Bynum is and if Pau Gasol can rebound the way a 7 footer should. Kobe will do what he needs to do.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2008, 11:41:25 AM »
They were a strong rebounding team without him. 

NO. They were soft, SOFT, SOFT. Everyone knows they were soft. Bynum helps, maybe a lot; we don't know yet. But Gasol is still Gasol. And losing Turiaf, who was NOT soft, hurts. Chris Mihm will inevitably sneeze and fracture a bone somewhere below his waist. It all comes down to how strong Bynum is and if Pau Gasol can rebound the way a 7 footer should. Kobe will do what he needs to do.

They were def soft the second half of the year.  The first two rounds in the playoffs they rebounded very poorly IMO.  Though to be fair when Bynum and Odom were both on the floor together the Lakers had two guys in the top 15 in total rebounds.  Also the Lakers can out score certain teams if they rebound poorly, we saw that in the playoffs.  There are other teams, like Boston and SA, who they won't get away doing that against.  They need to improve the rebounding and interior defense if they think they are going to make it deep into the playoffs again.

Bynum was interviewed by the local KLAC guys and he said that his number one focus is to alter shots and then improve his rebounding.  He said that there was one major thing that the Lakers missed and that was a legit shot blocker who could defend in the paint.  If he sticks to what he wanted to work on and contribute then I am very happy.

I'd mention Chris Mihm but he's useless.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 11:44:35 AM by westkoast »
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Hollinger has Jazz as being the best team in the West this year
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2008, 01:26:18 PM »
Hollinger has the Blazers improving by 1 win going from 41-41 to 42-40. 

All other things being equal (and of course things are not equal), I believe the Blazers are a team that would likely take a step back.  I believe they played a bit over their heads last year.  Their 41-41 record is really a function of winning 17 of 18 in mid-season.  The rest of the season they were 24-40, which is a 31 win pace.  That is a team that is primed for the Bill James Plexiglass Principal, where you will bounce back to your true level of quality.  This is like the Bulls of 3 years ago, that went from years of futility, to exploding onto the scene, and then almost as quick as they got there they reverted.

Like I said things are not equal.  Portland lost 2 key players from their 41-41 season, Jarrett Jack and James Jones, both of whom provided huge contributions to their 17 of 18 streak.  They have 3 very high profile rookies, and they signed no name FA.  That alone would indicate a step backwards, but you do have to take into account the impact of the rookies.  A typical #1 pick will improve a team by 11 wins.  A team with one of the 5 best rookies will get a 5 game bump from that rookie.  I think Oden is that type of organization changing #1 pick, and I think Rudy Fernandez has a chance to be one of the 5 best rookies.

So take them back to where they really were last year, especially minus Jack and Jones, and you have a 31/32 win team.  Add in 10 game improvement from Oden, and a 5 game improvement from Fernandez, and you get a 46 win team, +/- 3 wins.  That is the level I think you will see them progress to.
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