Author Topic: The Crash is on.  (Read 2402 times)

Offline rickortreat

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The Crash is on.
« on: September 17, 2008, 07:58:17 PM »
The stock market is failing badly here, as predicted by the charts, and confirmed by the news and current price action.  Two days with a 500 pt. drop and a 400 pt. drop is very significant and bad news.

That the market did not take comfort in the Fed's support of AIG, is what sent the Dollar down and Gold up sharply today.  Gold was up $80 today, the largest one day increase in it's history.  That was to $860 from $780.  Presently Gold is at $891.

The people I respect the most in financial matters are calling this situation dire.  It is important that you make sure your money is safe.  Do not automatically trust your banks or brokers.  Find out what happens if they become insolvent and close their doors.  Make sure you can get at your money.  This also includes IRA's and 401K's.

With banks and insurance firms potentially falling like dominoes, it's a good idea to make sure there are as few people between you and your money as possible.

The Dow is still headed much lower. We fell from 11,000 to 10,600 today.  I don't see a bottom until 9,500 or so.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 07:44:41 PM »
I guess that Paulson and Brenake read my post and decided to stop the Crash by changing the rules.

No naked short selling means that if you think a stock is going down and you don't own it, you could normally borrow the stock from your broker, sell it in the open market, and then buy it back later when the price has dropped. You give your broker back the stock and pocket the difference. 

Since you can no longer sell short, now the only selling comes from people who already own the stock.

Since the government has a plunge protection team that can come in and buy stocks, and since there are relatively few people who will try to take advantage of the higher prices by selling, the elimination of naked shorts puts a heavy bias on the stock market to rise.

Goldman Sachs fell over $30 in one day this week, and today it rose over $30 after they eliminated short-selling. That is huge volatility, and it is far from normal.  It was a great market on both sides this week, and the quick made a lot of easy money.

The only sure thing now is Gold and the commodities, remember most commodities are valuable in the real economy.  Gold is only valuable because people speculate in it. But when the real economy goes sour, it's hard to make money and hard to keep it.  Gold is seen as a safe haven in this environment.  When the government lends out that Trillion Dollars, it's going to work it's way into the real economy, and you will see extreme inflation, Six Dollars for a gallon of gas, $2 menu specials at McDonald's.

Gold stocks are still very cheap now since until recently the dollar was quite strong.  Now, that the dollar is falling again, Gold will rise and so will the stocks.  Some of them are beaten down so low, that doubling your money is possible.

But at least for the time being the crash is off.  It would take some major bad news to get long-term holders to dump their stocks now that the price has gone down so much.  Most 401K investors don't even look at what the market has done to their savings. The time to sell was several months ago, now with the no short-selling rule in effect, it makes more sense to stay in anyway.

The warning about eliminating people between you and your money is even more important.  It's still not clear who will be allowed to fail and who will be saved and how.

Offline ziggy

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 08:02:15 PM »
I guess that Paulson and Brenake read my post and decided to stop the Crash by changing the rules.

No naked short selling means that if you think a stock is going down and you don't own it, you could normally borrow the stock from your broker, sell it in the open market, and then buy it back later when the price has dropped. You give your broker back the stock and pocket the difference. 

Since you can no longer sell short, now the only selling comes from people who already own the stock.

Since the government has a plunge protection team that can come in and buy stocks, and since there are relatively few people who will try to take advantage of the higher prices by selling, the elimination of naked shorts puts a heavy bias on the stock market to rise.

Goldman Sachs fell over $30 in one day this week, and today it rose over $30 after they eliminated short-selling. That is huge volatility, and it is far from normal.  It was a great market on both sides this week, and the quick made a lot of easy money.


What the SEC did was suspend short selling in certain financial stocks only.  This was a suspension of shorting certain financial shares only, which could be in effect for 2 weeks through mid-January.

Naked short selling has always been illegal, though that illegality has never really been prosecuted.  For naked short selling only, from what I understand, they are setting up a new rule where you have to actually provide the share within 3 days, which is an attempt to close off naked short selling, not sure how effective that will be. 

I read a very interesting piece on this today which describes how the suspension could create some very significant unintended consequences.

Ban on Short-Selling Will Hurt Rather Than Help Broker-Dealers

New measures to shore up the markets are coming so fast and furious that it is becoming hard to keep track of them. What most people do not realize is that they produced some not-very-pretty unintended consequences. As we discussed at the time:

    1) Congress raises conforming limits on Fannie/Freddie to help unfreeze the mortgage market. Result: agency spreads skyrocket, bringing down Bear and a host of hedge funds. Mortgage markets still remain frozen.

    2) Fed opens TSLF to unfreeze mortgage market. Result: Carlyle goes bankrupt as people rapidly arbitrage the difference between holding MBS in firms that can and can't access the new credit facility. Mortgage markets remain frozen.

Note the spike in agency spreads and bankruptcy of Carlyle helped precipitate the run on Bear.

In fact, as Richard Bookstaber discussed at length in his book, Demon of Our Own Design, this sort of unintended consequence is precisely what you'd expect to see in a tightly coupled system, such are our financial system. Tight coupling occurs when processes move from step to step so rapidly that intervention is well-nigh impossible. Bear Stearns and Lehman are classic examples. A downgrade of their debt beyond a certain level meant that their counterparties could no longer trade with them, because that exposure would get them downgraded too. Thus a move (or threatened move) beyond a trigger point kicked off a sequence of unstoppable events.

One possible consequence is that hedge funds forced to exit positions by the SEC ban on short-selling might take losses big enough to lead to a run of the fund, forcing liquidation of positions. That rapid selling could produce distressed prices, and in a worst-case scenario, brokers could take losses if collateralized positions fell in value and hedge funds were unable to meet margin calls.

Note Morgan Stanley and Goldman are far and away the biggest prime brokers.

John Hempton sets forth another unintended consequence which is more certain to happen and broader in its impact and puts none to fine a point on it in his post title, "SEC Tries to Bankrupt Wall Street":

    Last I looked when I was short a stock the broker borrowed the stock (yes, Virgina you do get a borrow) and sold it. They then had cash.

    That cash was not available to me - it was pledged to whoever provided the stock to remove or reduce the risk that the stock won't be returned.

    That means it is generally available to the broker (who will generally lend me the stock from their inventory or margin or prime broker clients).

    Now there are a few hundred billion of short-sales out there. Probably more than normal - but a lot in almost all markets.

    And those short sales produce cash balances of a few hundred billion, most of which are available to Wall Street brokers.

    If you ban short-selling those balances will taken away from Wall Street brokers.

    That would be rather unpleasant. Last I looked the debt market was skittish and was hardly going to replace that money.

    So I conclude that the SEC in their "infinite wisdom" are going to stick the knife into Wall Street and bankrupt the lot of them. For political optics. So they can be seen to be doing something about short-selling.


The only reason the damage might not be as broad-scale as Hempton fears is that the "temporary" ban is on shorting financial stock. Oh wait, financial represented (until they started hitting the rocks) 40% of S&P earnings.

And there is something far simpler that the SEC could do. Just re-implement the uptick rule (it means you can short only when the last sale price was above the immediately prior sale). That rule comported itself well for over 50 years but for some unfathomable reason (no doubt at the behest of Wall Street) was eliminated by the SEC.
 
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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jemagee

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 08:22:37 PM »
I found this very interesting as it seems to be counter to a free market economy to prevent people from betting on a company doing badly...how many people made large amounts of cash when they took advantage of the idiocy of Krispy Kreme being so grossly over valued (It's fracking donuts you morons) or when juniper networks traded at ungodly level of 300s without making profits.
 
How does this make the financial companies RUN ANY BETTER...what does this do to prevent the companies from putting themselves in the holes they put themselves in in the first place...how does this fix the relaxation of rules that allowed for the horrible mortgage crisis.

Short selling is not a SYMPTOM of a problem, it's a result of perscient investors taking advantage of what they see as horrible business models.  This isn't even a band aid on a severed artery, it's a piece of toilet paper on a severed artery as far as i'm concerned

Of course this is just a view of a mostly outside examining the stock market and taking my knowledge from the news and cnbc

(i spent 4 years working in a business that focused solely on IPOs and was in the heart of the internet boom when TGLO went from 9 to 90 in about 10 minutes, and I knew that was stupid then, but it made my company (and me) lots of money taking advantage of the irrational exuberance of people)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 08:29:47 PM by jemagee »

Offline ziggy

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2008, 10:51:23 AM »
Here?s A Plan to Avoid a New RTC


The Treasury Department has told members of congress that the US faces a financial tsunami if a bill to allow the government to purchase up to $700 billion of toxic financial securities from financial firms is not
passed ? this week. Unfortunately, this solution of giving the US Treasury almost unlimited power to buy distressed securities could be avoided if the government made some simple (and temporary) changes to mark-tomarket accounting rules. So far, and for many unknown reasons, these changes have been considered off limits.

Why drawing such a hard line in the sand is so important, is a real mystery. Certainly, firms that took excessive risk should be punished. And the US should avoid creating moral hazard whenever it can. But saying; ?I told you that you would stay in your room for a whole week if you disobeyed, and I don?t care if the house is burning down?you are going to spend an entire week in your room,? is absurd. If we are really talking about the end of the world as we know it; who should really care about relaxing the rules for a short time to get us through.

Let?s not take this the wrong way. Mark-to-market accounting is a good thing. It makes sense most of the
time, and for most financial instruments that are traded frequently, and in the open. But there are special
circumstances. And today?s financial market problems would meet any definition of the word special.

It is true that home foreclosures have risen, but a vast majority of mortgages are still paying on time. As a result, the market prices of subprime loan pools today have absolutely no relationship to the actual performance of the bonds. If every subprime loan went bad, and banks recovered just 40 cents on the dollar, the bonds would still be worth 40 cents. But the market has pushed bonds well below that level,  taking down venerable firms and causing the government to consider draconian solutions.

In other words, mark-to-market accounting, not the reality of the economy or the actual credits, has  created much of the financial turmoil that has shaken the world. Imagine if you had a $200,000 mortgage on a $300,000 house that you planned on living in for 20 years. But a neighbor, because of very special
circumstances had to sell his house for $150,000. Then, imagine if your banker said you had to mark to this ?new market? and give the bank $80,000 in cash immediately (so that you would have 20% down), or lose your home. Would this reflect reality? Not at all.

Would this create chaos? Absolutely. And it is happening all over Wall Street. Merrill Lynch was forced to sell $30.6 billion of illiquid mortgage securities to Lone Star Funds for just $6.7 billion, or 22 cents on the dollar. If it did not sell, these bonds might have fallen to 18 cents and further eroded its capital on a mark-to-market basis. It couldn?t take the chance.  But what if Merrill was allowed to hold those securities on its books, without marking them to an illiquid market? The company would not have had to
take a $24 billion loss. And maybe investors in Merrill Lynch would not have had to settle for a $29/share
buyout from Bank of America, a 60% mark-down from the share price less than a year ago. After all, everyone knows those loans were worth more than 22 cents. The actual performance of the bonds was much better than the price, and Lone Star was able to take advantage of the fact that Merrill was over the proverbial knee of accounting rules.

All of this can be avoided if a system were put into place that allowed private companies to hold these distressed assets. Rather than a centralized holding place, why not use a decentralized one? Why not  allow financial firms with structured (Tier 3) assets issued between December 2003 and August 2007 to suspend mark-to market accounting for those assets, and receive government insurance as a backstop? This would be a temporary solution, not requiring any ultimate change in Sarbanes Oxley or mark-to-market accounting rules, and the government could even make money by selling insurance with less risk to the taxpayer than buying them outright.

In essence a firm could sequester, or firewall off these specific assets from the rest of its balance sheet,
and either finance this itself, or bring in outside financing. The firm would promise to hold the securities to maturity, or until government insurance was no longer needed when it liquidated the assets. All of these deals could be settled in the private sector, in multiple locations with the government looking over the shoulder of each deal. 
If the rules had been relaxed a little bit for these specific assets, Merrill Lynch could have created its own private equity investment fund inside its corporate structure instead of selling at a huge loss to Lone Star,
which created its own holding vehicle.  This plan would leave mark-to-market accounting regulations  intact. It would be a temporary change in the rules. Its most important attribute is that it leaves taxpayer powder dry for another day. It also allows the private sector to price assets in an environment that is not contrived and will help avoid the loss of, or government takeover of, more private firms.

Even if the Treasury initiates an RTC-type vehicle, the slight changes in the accounting rules for these
specific assets should still be made. If a firm does not want to accept the government bid for its distressed assets it would have an alternative. It would also create a level playing field because the Treasury does not have to mark-to-market. A competitive marketplace for these securities would insure the current holders that they would get a price that is not based on a fire sale.

This plan stops the mark-to-market meltdown without undoing the good that mark-to-market
accounting has done, protects the taxpayer, stops the losses at financial firms at a crucial time, and therefore helps end the shorting of stock and bonds that has kept the financial system on the rocks without making it illegal. Best of all it keeps the government from a massive and draconian step toward financial socialism.


Consensus forecasts come from Bloomberg. This report was prepared by First Trust Advisors L. P., and reflects the current opinion of the authors. It is based upon sources and data believed to be accurate and reliable. Opinions and forward looking statements expressed are subject to change without notice. This information does not constitute a solicitation or an offer to buy or sell any security.

630-322-7756
www.ftportfolios.com
Sep 22, 2008 Monday Morning Outlook
B r i a n S . W e s b u r y - Chief Economist
Robert Stein, CFA - Senior Economist
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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jemagee

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 11:01:00 AM »
See that makes too much common sense

Hence, a government agency can't commit to such a plan, it's contrary to the way things are done

Offline rickortreat

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 06:12:38 PM »
That's not common sense. Anything that allows the current system to perpetuate is doomed to failure, because it is based on FRAUD!

Having a clearing house for all of this crap will do exactly that... encourage the asswipes to do more of the same.

Here's what should have happened, the banks shouldn't have overleveraged their loans so much, so they would have had adequate cash-flow on hand to maintain solvency!  IF they are too stupid or too greedy to do that, they are too irresponsible to be running a bank!

It looks like even the short-selling rule isn't having sufficient impact. GS was still down enough to make a nice profit on an options play.  And the Dow was still down 372 points which demonstrates that there is still substantial fear and uncertainty in the market.

From time to time I suspect that the Fed is intervening in the markets, but if they have and do, today was a day for them to try and put a bottom in. Not doing so leaves the market free to fall to it's own natural level- which puts 9,500 back in play.

jemagee

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 06:14:04 PM »
Quote
Here's what should have happened, the banks shouldn't have overleveraged their loans so much, so they would have had adequate cash-flow on hand to maintain solvency!  IF they are too stupid or too greedy to do that, they are too irresponsible to be running a bank!

And who wrote the laws that allowed the banks to do that again?

Offline ziggy

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 07:40:48 PM »
Please excuse my hubris if you are not really interested in my opinions, but sometimes one needs to say their peace.  Take it for what you think it is worth.
 
First understand the issue at hand is a Balance Sheet problem and not an Income Statement problem.  Companies are not bleeding cash.  The problem is not that companies are losing money from operations, it is that they are losing money from asset write-downs.  Why are they losing money from asset write-downs?  Because they are being forced to because of mark-to-market provisions in GAAP rules.  So the result is that the losses that will eventuate from mortgage backed securities, collateralized commercial paper, credit default swaps, and various and sundry credit derivatives, and being forced to be absorbed NOW, and all at once.  This is coming in the form of asset write-downs.  Many of these securities have real value of maybe $0.85-$0.90 on the dollar if held to maturity, but companies are being forced to value them at maybe $0.20 to $0.50 on the dollar now, because that is what the "market" is, even though they will hold them to maturity and earn $0.85-$0.90.
 
What is the result of taking these write-downs now?  Apart from the loss on the income statement (while EBITDA is good) is that companies are now in violation of lending provisions.  Many of the people who have bought these securities have done so on margin.  When you, because of mark-to-market requirements, are forced to write-down your assets (because someone else sold the same security at $0.75 on the dollar), your debt to equity ratio is now changed radically.  In most cases you are now no longer in compliance with your borrowing covenants. 
 
When that happens, your lender will demand that you get back into compliance, or they will institute a margin call, forcing you to liquidate.  So the response of the borrower is to sell assets, and in doing so, they use the proceeds to reduce debt, which if done on a dollar-for-dollar basis will get you back to being in compliance.  Unfortunately what happens is you must sell at $0.50 on the dollar, which forces you to unwind faster than you want to.  At the same time as you sell these securities at you must further write-down your asset portfolio to $0.50 to the dollar, because you must mark-to-market, which leads to a further unwinding, and if left unchecked a melt-down.
 
The problem is that there is no market for these securities, because risk is being over-priced, because of concerns of what may happen in a further mark-to-market write-down.  Just like in 2003-2006 risk was greatly under-priced, it is now excessively over-priced.  The spread between corporate bonds and TBills has ballooned.  The cost of a credit default swap is now huge.  AIG has to borrow short-term at LIBOR plus 8%, because of an almost irrational fear of risk.  When risk is priced so high no one is willing to become the buyer of last resort, at any price.  When there is no longer a buyer of last resort, there is no effective and functioning "market", yet you are being required to mark to this "market" which is based almost totally on risk avoidance.  If you could take the loss on only those assets where you actually took a loss, then your balance sheet wouldn't be out of compliance.  The loss is still there, and at some point you will need to take the loss, but if you can spread that loss out of years, instead of now, then you are not hit with a liquidity crunch.  If everyone in the world is in the same situation as you, then you compound the problem onto an almost unimaginable scale.
 
Now look at our present circumstance and the Great Depression.  The GD started with the stock market crash, stocks were highly overvalued, and being driven up by heavy use of margin (housing crash, homes overpriced, excessive debt today).  The market crashes, and lenders start making margin calls, because borrowers are out of compliance.  This leads to a liquidity crunch, and in the 1930's the Fed reduced liquidity, and that lead to a system wide unwinding, and the GD.  There was no buyer of last resort, and no money available even if there was one.  As one company goes under, because they cannot find a buyer for their assets, they leave a wake of default in their wake, which begins to stress the balance sheet of banks.  When the second company goes under it happens again, and before you know it banks begin to lose their asset base and then you have bank failures, unless they can get short term financing to bridge the gap.  If they can't they go under, which causes a run on that bank and other banks.  As you get a run on banks, then credit is further shrunk, and liquidity further tightened.  This leads eventually a total collapse.
 
That is the same situation as we have today, except that Fed is not tightening liquidity it is expanding liquidity, and now the US Treasury is stepping in to be the buyer of last resort.  Once you have a buyer of last resort, then the market will begin to function.  You want to sell a security, but you could not find a market, but now you have a buyer, the US Treasury.  They may only pay $0.20 but they will at least buy the security.  Once a buyer is in place then the rest of the market sees a bottom, and once you see a bottom, and you recognize what the cost is then trading will resume again.  You see that the Fed is buying at $0.20, but you believe it is worth more than that, so you offer $0.25, and you buy.  Others see what you paid, so they set their prices targets accordingly, and in time the market begins to function.  Once the market begins to functions credit spreads shrink, and risk begins to be priced more appropriately.
 
This situation is the same as what happened to Long Term Capital Management in 1998.  They had developed formulas that determined appropriate risk based upon credit spreads for a number of fixed income securities.  The formulas were spectacularly accurate, and LTCM increased their net worth by 160 times in period of only 4 years.  They bet on credit spreads, and did so using large amounts of margin, but their formulas were incredibly precise.  Then credit spreads began to widen even more, because of the Russian debt default and the Asian currency crisis.  Their formulas told them to buy, so they bought, and there were lots of willing sellers who were looking to avoid and eliminate risk.  As they bought more, then more sellers offered, at ever widening spreads, meaning that according to the LTCM formulas they should buy even more, because the margins were so great, which lead to even more selling and even more LTCM buying.  At some point though it stopped, as LTCM began to absorb losses, because the credit spreads their formulas said were to large (causing their earlier bets to lose), got larger and larger, and the contracts they had bought got further and further underwater.  The greater the spread, the greater the loss they experienced now on the bets they already made, but also the greater the potential gain for the new purchases when the market turned. 
 
The problem was that the LTCM formulas worked well in a well functioning market, but the formulas could not ever measure the reactions in a badly functioning market, where risk avoidance had become the objective.  Think of this in terms of a distribution curve.  The LTCM formulas measured to an accuracy of +/- 10 standard deviations (or even more accurately).  Unfortunately they were not in a circumstance like that any longer, they were way out on the edge of the distribution curve.  This is like the event horizon on a black hole, all the physical laws of gravity, magnetism etc no longer apply.  All the laws that apply to a well functioning market no longer apply, it is chaos, and no formula can accurately predict what may happen.  In 30 days equity in LTCM over 99%, with potential losses potentially exceeding $1 trillion, because of the use of margin, and the volume of credit derivatives they bought and sold. 
 
LTCM was purchased by their lenders for virtually nothing.  In many cases their lenders were the ones who were driving the credits spreads that took LTCM under.  Once LTCM was bought and money came back into the market the buyers of LTCM made a huge profit on many of the trades LTCM bought.  LTCM was right, but they could not last long enough to actually execute the trade.  All the losses happened NOW, and they could not deal with it.  In a more sober time frame the trades were good trades, and the trades ended up being in the money.
 
There is lots of talk now about new regulations to keep these things from happening again.  The key to government regulation is to make sure that the regulation doesn't exacerbate the problem it is trying to solve.  Mark-to-market provisions are in place partly as a response to Enron etc.  People did not know exactly how much bad debt they had, so they bought with bad information.  Mark-to-market is a designed to let investors know just where they stand and it has a great benefit in that regard.
 
Mark-to-market is a great thing in an up market, but it is horrible in a down market.  The mark-to-market regulations have taken a bad situation and made it far worse.  In regulation you want to avoid these outcomes.  The suspension on short selling can be another.  You have rules against naked short selling, but they are not being enforced.  You now have a ban on shorting certain financial stocks.  Why not set up a mechanism that makes it harder, but doesn't make it illegal?  It is the same thing with credit derivatives.  They are a huge market, and it is completely unregulated, and the potential risks do not show on the firms balance sheets.  If you force them to be regulated then you can dry up a huge and highly effective insurance market, for risk mitigation.  That is what derivatives do.  If you regulate them then they become much less effective at what they are designed to do.  If you force them onto your balance sheet, then with mark-to-market you can lead to incredible increases and decreases in asset value, especially in markets like this.  This can make bubbles bigger and crashes deeper and the opposite of what you are trying to avoid with regulation.  I am not saying regulation is bad, but it can be just as dangerous as no regulation, and regulation is not a panacea.
 
What inevitably happens with regulation is the same thing as what happens with the LTCM formulas.  Regulations are put into place to handle normally functioning markets.  When you have a chaotic market, then the formulas and regulations to not operate effectively, and often make a bad situation far worse.  Mark-to-market is just one such example.  I fear greatly that the Feds will set up a much more onerous regulatory environment that will make the economy much less efficient, and will not help in these periods of correction.  The reason they won't work is that because people see and understand what the rules are, they respond accordingly.  If the rules make their situation worse, then when things begin to unwind, then they pursue another path that is not regulated, but which accomplishes what they want.  In other words you cannot regulate your way out of these situations. 
 
I think it is important for people to fully understand that the terms being thrown around in the media are not entirely accurate.  Sometimes it is great to use big numbers to make a story big, or more earth shaking etc, but it is not always what it seems to be.  First all this talk about bailing out Bear Stearns, AIG, Fannie & Freddie.  Let be clear, that the shareholders of these companies are not being made whole, and nor should they be.  In most case the shareholders are getting nothing or nearly nothing.  Recognize also that the debt holders are not necessarily being made whole, they will suffer losses, and well they should.  The talk of the potential losses to US taxpayers of trillions, while technically true, is functionally apocryphal.  If all this is bought at par, or all debts and potential debts are covered at par, then yes the debts could be that high.  In reality nothing will be done at anywhere close to par.  The Feds have a great opportunity to have a return like the shareholders of LTCM had.  They will be the buyer of last resort, and they will be in a situation where they do not have to buy.  Just because the seller wants $0.75, doesn't mean they will get it.  The fed is the buyer of last resort in a buyers market..
 
So to the US economy in general.  The US economy is in OK shape.  We are not in a growth recession, as we  experiencing good but some what overstated growth (at least as measured by the typical GDP measures).  What we have is a mild jobs recession, as unemployment is rising but it is still low in historical terms.  We have a housing depression, but housing makes up only 4% of the US economy.  We are in the midst of a severe recession in the financial sector.  We are in the midst of boom in exports, and that boom will continue for a number of years regardless of what happens to the US$.  We are in a boom in commodities and agriculture, with very high prices, even after the corrections in the last 30-45 days.  High tech is strong, health care is strong, energy is strong, autos and transports are bad.  In other words it is a mixed bag, but it is not the end of the world.  You need to evaluate the US$ in 2 ways, an absolute value and a relative value.  It's value in absolute terms is best measured by gold, which will go higher for a while, how much higher I haven't the foggiest.  In relative terms the $ will probably lose a little value against other currencies, but as soon as the financial market situation is better understood, then it will begin to appreciate.  Most of the rest of the world is in the same situation regarding mortgages we are, but we are 6-18 months ahead of most other countries.
 
I read this recently and I thought it was apropos.  We all know what a bubble is.  We can see it, and touch it, and understand its physical properties.  What is the opposite of a bubble?  Can you describe it, see it, touch it, or understand it's physical properties?  Ok think of the financial markets.  We all saw the bubble forming in Tech in the late 90's and we all saw the housing bubble happening.  Perhaps we didn't respond to it like we should have, nor did we all fully understand just how big the bubble had become, but we saw it.  Well now we are in the opposite situation.  We are right now in the opposite of a bubble.  We cannot see how big (or deep) it is, and we cannot see just how stressed it is, but at some point it will begin to re-inflate.  When it does those who bought distressed paper at huge discount will make a huge amount of money.
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A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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jemagee

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 09:46:29 PM »
Quote
We all saw the bubble forming in Tech in the late 90's and we all saw the housing bubble happening.  Perhaps we didn't respond to it like we should have, nor did we all fully understand just how big the bubble had become, but we saw it

But bubbles burst...they ALWAYS burst, and that's what happened now and what happened then.  I was in the strock market on the fringe of it during the tech bubble and I watched my boss lose 2/3 of paper profits in under a week and begged him to sell every day...he owned all those high flyer techs...he forgot about gravity, people ALWAYS forget about gravity, things will not go up forever (except maybe real estate values in santa barbara) and bubbles ALWAYS burst...it's pathetic that a second, much much larger bubble came and no one said "hmm....maybe we should remember what happened last time"

But don't worry...the US GOVERNMENT is on the case, we're all fine.

As long as China doesn't call in its loans?

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 11:37:42 PM »
As long as China doesn't call in its loans?

Yea right.  Why don't they stomp on thier d*cks with leather boots while they're at it.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 07:59:26 AM »
Good post ziggy.  It captured a lot of my thoughts also.  The entire financial system (world economy) is NOT collapsing.  Transactions are being processed...start to worry when the local store, gas station, etc. no longer accepts your debit/credit card. 

There are bargains in different sectors of this market.  But right now the market is in full blown panic.  The market is supposed to price current & future profits.  Panic can be evidenced by the fact that financial companies reporting profits are still being hammered by double digit percentage price decreases.  Even banks that are somewhat insulated from the excesses are being punished.  But they are generating profits (excluding asset writedowns) and positive cash flow.  The big telecoms and cable companies are holding fairly steady on price and paying dividends higher than money market rates.  Wireless is growing so there is little reason to believe these companies won't continue to prosper.  And this is just one area that is strong in this bear market.

There will always be bubbles...mostly because there will always be greed and the desire to get rich quick. But the great majority will be fine if they follow basic principles: spend less than you earn and save/invest the difference. Living beyond your means and having a "hope to hit the lottery" mentality will just lead to another crisis.  It was the savings & loans in the 80s.  LTCM in the nineties.  The tech bubble.  Now real estate bubble.  There was even a mini oil bubble in the past couple months...speculators (people trying to get rich quick) will chase whatever they think will make them that quick buck.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a bubble in health care as the next trigger for economic "meltdown".
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Offline westkoast

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 12:20:20 PM »
Thank you for that Ziggy.  I am really glad you guys post your takes/information on whats going on.  As someone who doesn't fully understand exactly what is going on it's nice to hear from people OTHER then the media.  I mean I usually know to tone it down a notch from whatever the media says about any type of 'crisis' but you would think America was about to blow up if you went strickly off what you see in print and on tv.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 12:40:43 PM »
Please excuse my hubris if you are not really interested in my opinions, but sometimes one needs to say their peace.  Take it for what you think it is worth.

You had me at "hubris". :-*
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

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Offline ziggy

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Re: The Crash is on.
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 01:45:33 PM »
You had me at "hubris". :-*

Even us Red and Blackers are prone to hubris, just like the Purple and Golders.  It is just that we have much less justification to express it based upon our history, but hopefully that will change soon.




'Wall Street' No Longer Exists

by Alan Reynolds

Alan Reynolds is a senior fellow with the Cato Institute and the author of Income and Wealth.

This article appeared in The Wall Street Journal on September 23, 2008
With Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley becoming commercial banks, and the other three big investment banks/brokerage houses being acquired by commercial banks, politicians and the press won't have Wall Street to kick around anymore. Headlines now shout about a $700 billion "Bailout for Wall Street." Yet strictly speaking, Wall Street as we knew it no longer exists.

The conversion or absorption of all five of Wall Street's big investment banks into commercial banks raises several intriguing issues.

First of all, the financial storms over the past year have -- before last week -- been largely confined to securities markets and to interbank loans among commercial and investment banks. Bank loans to commercial and industrial business, real estate and consumers continued to expand nearly every month. Commercial and industrial loans exceeded $1.5 trillion this August, up from less than $1.2 trillion a year earlier. Real-estate loans exceeded $3.6 trillion, up from less than $3.4 trillion a year ago. Consumer loans were $845 billion, up from $737 billion. Credit standards are tougher, which is surely a good thing, but interest rates for creditworthy borrowers remain low.

Alan Reynolds is a senior fellow with the Cato Institute and the author of Income and Wealth.
More by Alan Reynolds

The ongoing slow but steady availability of bank credit helps explain the much-remarked contrast between Wall Street and Main Street -- the shaky condition of exotic financial markets compared with relatively benign statistics for industrial production, retail sales, employment and the rest of the nonhousing economy. Most people go about their business without depending on investment banks or exotic varieties of commercial paper.

Second, recent events highlight the absurdity of the attempt by several pundits to blame recent problems on "financial deregulation." That complaint was aimed at the Financial Modernization Act of 1999, which passed the House by a vote of 362-57 and the Senate by 90-8, yanking the last brick out of the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act's regulatory wall between commercial banks and investment banks.

If it was somehow possible in today's world of global electronic finance to the rebuild such a wall, that would mean J.P. Morgan could not have bought Bear Stearns, Bank of America could not have bought Merrill Lynch, Barclays could not buy most of Lehman, and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley could not become bank holding companies. It is hard to imagine how things would have worked out in that situation, but it surely would not have been an improvement.

Since the 1933 regulatory wall has collapsed as definitively as the Berlin Wall, all the giant financial conglomerates now face oversight and regulation by the Federal Reserve, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Comptroller of the Currency and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Innocents who seek security in regulation need to recall, however, that not one of those august agencies exhibited timely foresight or concern about the default risk among even prime mortgages in some locations, or about any lack of transparency with respect to bundling mortgages into securities. People do not become wiser, more selfless or more omniscient simply because they work for government agencies.

    Wall Street was always a metaphor, of course, but so are words like ?bailout? and ?toxic? debt.

Wall Street was always a metaphor, of course, but so are words like "bailout" and "toxic" debt. Nationalization of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was a bailout for creditors (who received windfall gains), not for stockholders or executives. The federally enforced shotgun marriage between J.P. Morgan and Bear Stearns at the initially ridiculous price of $2 a share was no bailout for Bear. The 11.3% federal loan to AIG, contingent on the potential expropriation of 80% of shareholder value, is no bailout either.

By contrast, what was done to stop a run on the money-market funds is a real bailout which could encourage them to hold risky paper and also make it tougher for commercial banks to attract deposits. The proposal to buy up mortgage-backed securities is a bailout too, though the beneficiaries are not just the tattered remains of Wall Street. The bailout consists of shifting the risk of loss to taxpayers. Actual losses could not reach $700 billion unless the securities were literally worthless, which would mean the value of the underlying real estate fell to zero.

What was "toxic" for investment banks is not equally toxic for the Treasury Department because the government does not even bother to keep a balance sheet, much less abide by mark-to-market accounting rules. A powerful motive for converting investment banks into commercial banks is to get around those onerous balance-sheet rules that required fire-sale pricing of securities that were virtually unmarketable during a panicky scramble for liquidity. Strict adherence to those rules made patience a vice and a "buy and hold" approach impossible. This confirms what many of us have long been saying about the foolishness of letting arbitrary bookkeeping rules dominate economic reality.

Turning Wall Street into a bunch of commercial banks is a solution of sorts to a problem aggravated by foolish mark-to-market regulations, not by the inevitable demise of the 1933 wall between investment banks and commercial banks. Something good may yet come out of all this, because that wall never made much sense in the first place.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil