Author Topic: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me  (Read 45500 times)

Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2008, 04:47:29 PM »
There is nothing to stop a third party from coming along and eventually "taking out" one of the other parties in the US.  Just because it hasn't happened in your life-time doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the past, and may very well happen again.

I think the republican party is about to go belly-up.  They had a good run and control over the country for about 6 years and really messed it up about as badly as they could.  Even people who ordinarily would vote Republican are now voting for Democrats.

There are a lot of conservative voters who are not neo-cons like Bush.  Their concept of limited govt. controlled spending and intelligent foreign policy are so far from what the party's leadership has been like that a continued loosing streak in elections could fracture the coalitions that Regan so carefully stitched together.

Rural Americans are being squeezed to financial ruin thanks to the uncontrolled spending that has led to the dollar falling by a third in value since Bush got elected. Oil and food have gotten expensive and most people can't afford to live as well as they once did. The factory jobs are gone and so have a lot of opportunities in Republican country. Desperation and the desire for change can bring about significant changes in the political landscape.

jemagee is right about the Democrats winning this election. IF they don't they may very well end up being the party that disintegrates!

Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2008, 05:11:00 PM »

Maybe if each special interest group had it own party then they would figure out how to compromise and work out what is best for the country as a whole.  Now all they have to do is get one party to buy into their agenda and voila it becomes law no matter how bad for the country when that party achieves control.  I would go as far as to say the 2 party system encourages these special interest groups.

Lurker, if these politicians cannot compromise using a two party system, what makes you think compromise will come out of a multiple-party system? Historically, this has not happened.

Quote
So instead of decrying how poorly thought out my alternative is maybe you could come up with another.  Unless you believe that what we are doing is working.  And as the world traveler that you are I find it difficult to believe that you think our current system is working.  And with basically our entire government getting approval ratings below 25% I would hazard a guess that many Americans aren't real enamored with the current system either.  It is just IMO most are to complacent to try to do anything about it.

Was is jemagee who said Democracy is the worst political system in the world - except for all the others?

You have to remember, any politician, regardless of his affiliation or party of choice, wants to get elected BECAUSE he has an agenda. The agenda comes first and often that agenda is as simple as John McCain's, which has proven from his past to simply be for him to get elected president of the United States at some point any way he can. Nothing wrong with that, except in his case it borders on fanaticism. His father's influence early in his career,his marriage, his military career and West Point (where he graduated fifth in his class - from the BOTTOM), and his claim to be a "Goldwater" Republican, though Barry Goldwater would spit nails to know that McCain associates with him. [/quote]   

Quote
And now what I am sensing is that when one does speak out the lemmings stand together to shout: NO! NO! That can't work!  But without open discussion about how to improve the system then there never will be any change.

"To destroy this invisible Government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day."

Nice quote. And it directly addresses your issue, I believe.

It also is the platform statement of the Progressive <third> Party of 1912, better known as the Bull Moose Party. As WOW will say, I should know since I was there.

This party succeeded in spliting the Republican party that year and getting Woodrow Wilson elected president and it accomplished not much else. Ralph Nader, your current classic third party candidate, basically did the same thing to the Democratic Party in draining enough voters away to get Dubya elected.

Is THIS the alternative you like to see played out? We have no idea if any of the Democratic candidates (Gore or Kerry) would have made a better president during these changing times, but I think we all can agree it certainly would have been preferable to living our lives out during the absolute worst time in American History.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Ted

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2008, 05:26:00 PM »
Just wondering . . . what's the overall unemployment rate in the US right now? And how does it compare to other countries? Or to our country's historical numbers?
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Offline Ted

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2008, 05:28:09 PM »
Is THIS the alternative you like to see played out? We have no idea if any of the Democratic candidates (Gore or Kerry) would have made a better president during these changing times, but I think we all can agree it certainly would have been preferable to living our lives out during the absolute worst time in American History.

Wow. Worst in all of American history? Worse than the early months of the Revolution? Worse than the Civil War? Worse than either of the World Wars? Worse than the Great Depression? Worse than the Monica Lewinsky scandal? Hee hee . . . sorry, had to throw that in there.
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"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2008, 05:51:12 PM »
Just wondering . . . what's the overall unemployment rate in the US right now? And how does it compare to other countries? Or to our country's historical numbers?

As of last month it was 5.7%.  The worst time during the Bush administration was 6.3% (June 2006).   The last time we were at 5.7% or higher (outside of 2006) was August 1995 (which was on a decline from the 7.3% Clinton inherited).  The worst since '48 was during the Reagan Administration (10.8% in November 1982).

It is up over a full point from where it was at this time last year (4.6%), and up considerably from what Bush inherited (3.9%)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 05:56:00 PM by Derek Bodner »

Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2008, 06:01:08 PM »
Is THIS the alternative you like to see played out? We have no idea if any of the Democratic candidates (Gore or Kerry) would have made a better president during these changing times, but I think we all can agree it certainly would have been preferable to living our lives out during the absolute worst time in American History.

Wow. Worst in all of American history? Worse than the early months of the Revolution? Worse than the Civil War? Worse than either of the World Wars? Worse than the Great Depression? Worse than the Monica Lewinsky scandal? Hee hee . . . sorry, had to throw that in there.

The Revolutionary War MADE the U.S., so I cannot even fathom why you would not think those times were worth living in, and those months were actually years, but it created the nation.

The Civil War was without doubt the GREATEST time in our country, because its outcome made us a NATION as opposed to individual states all going their own way. It may have been painful, but the outcome has led us directly to the the greatest period of American history.

Both World Wars were faught to curtail tyranny. It stopped the types of oppression we as a nation have always prided ourselves in opposing, and we won those wars. I think you would be very hard pressed to find anyone who lived in those times not proud of what this country accomplished. And that includes helping rebuild nations afterwards.

The Great Depression created a strong American economy and started the policies that had fended off similar economic downturns and kept these times shorter. While it was hard on Americans at the time, they came out of it stronger individuals and especially hardworking because they knew their work was going to be rewarded. And they learned the value of the dollar and saved it. They still do.

Monica Lewinsky......okay you got me there. If only Bill had picked prettier interns.....

Compared to today, where we are seeing the collapse of the America we grew up with, where under Bush the Treasury Dept for the first time is over fifty percent owned by foreign investors, where we found out that our government would prefer to overfund a stupid war to the point where the president of that country can hand out dollars to citizens in the street because he has no idea how to spend the extra $79 BILLION dollars he has, instead of helping - AND PREVENTING - the victims of Katrina to suffer like no Americans ever have on their home land.

Not to mention suffering the first attack on our nation since Pearl Harbor, and instead of fighting those responible - a guy who is living in a cave!!! - we instead spend the future of our country to invade another nation that had nothing to do with it, spiralling our national dept out to the point where the president elected 2032 will STILL be trying to eliminate it.

Where because of that borrowing from other countries to PAY for this war, we are now subservient to the wills and buying-power of the Chinese, among others - where we American, now adults living in this country, will all - every one of us - be dead before the United States comes close to recovering from this presidency.....

Yeah, I would say seeing the actual collapse of what was once the greatest country the world has ever known due to internal stupidity qualifies as the absolute worse time in the country's history.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Lurker

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2008, 07:09:56 PM »
Is THIS the alternative you like to see played out? We have no idea if any of the Democratic candidates (Gore or Kerry) would have made a better president during these changing times, but I think we all can agree it certainly would have been preferable to living our lives out during the absolute worst time in American History.

Wow. Worst in all of American history? Worse than the early months of the Revolution? Worse than the Civil War? Worse than either of the World Wars? Worse than the Great Depression? Worse than the Monica Lewinsky scandal? Hee hee . . . sorry, had to throw that in there.

The Revolutionary War MADE the U.S., so I cannot even fathom why you would not think those times were worth living in, and those months were actually years, but it created the nation.

The Civil War was without doubt the GREATEST time in our country, because its outcome made us a NATION as opposed to individual states all going their own way. It may have been painful, but the outcome has led us directly to the the greatest period of American history.

Both World Wars were faught to curtail tyranny. It stopped the types of oppression we as a nation have always prided ourselves in opposing, and we won those wars. I think you would be very hard pressed to find anyone who lived in those times not proud of what this country accomplished. And that includes helping rebuild nations afterwards.

The Great Depression created a strong American economy and started the policies that had fended off similar economic downturns and kept these times shorter. While it was hard on Americans at the time, they came out of it stronger individuals and especially hardworking because they knew their work was going to be rewarded. And they learned the value of the dollar and saved it. They still do.

Monica Lewinsky......okay you got me there. If only Bill had picked prettier interns.....

Compared to today, where we are seeing the collapse of the America we grew up with, where under Bush the Treasury Dept for the first time is over fifty percent owned by foreign investors, where we found out that our government would prefer to overfund a stupid war to the point where the president of that country can hand out dollars to citizens in the street because he has no idea how to spend the extra $79 BILLION dollars he has, instead of helping - AND PREVENTING - the victims of Katrina to suffer like no Americans ever have on their home land.

Not to mention suffering the first attack on our nation since Pearl Harbor, and instead of fighting those responible - a guy who is living in a cave!!! - we instead spend the future of our country to invade another nation that had nothing to do with it, spiralling our national dept out to the point where the president elected 2032 will STILL be trying to eliminate it.

Where because of that borrowing from other countries to PAY for this war, we are now subservient to the wills and buying-power of the Chinese, among others - where we American, now adults living in this country, will all - every one of us - be dead before the United States comes close to recovering from this presidency.....

Yeah, I would say seeing the actual collapse of what was once the greatest country the world has ever known due to internal stupidity qualifies as the absolute worse time in the country's history.

I agree it is a very dire time for our country.  And in those times it took people willing to make unpopular decisions.  New ideas.  New approaches.  You have very effectively described the devestation being wreaked upon us by the excesses of the current system.  Yet you still do not offer any alternatives.  No solutions.  No cries for change?
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2008, 09:02:38 PM »
I agree it is a very dire time for our country.  And in those times it took people willing to make unpopular decisions.  New ideas.  New approaches.  You have very effectively described the devestation being wreaked upon us by the excesses of the current system.  Yet you still do not offer any alternatives.  No solutions.  No cries for change?

He offered a great one, revolution.  Crying for change is just that, crying.  Comming up with great solutions means NOTHING without execution.  We are so stuck in this filth that the only way out is drastic change.  Obama talks a good game but I don't know what, if anything, he can accomplish in the current system.  This country is nowhere near the point of an explosion like we had in the 60's because they evil empire of special interest groups has learned to not push too far too quickly. 

I've never felt so cheated by this country and at the same time I've never felt so helpless.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2008, 10:37:22 AM »
I don't think anyone could do anything to avert the disaster that is coming to this country.  There are consequences to actions in politics and finance just as there are in physics.  If you throw an object into the air, nothing is going to stop it from coming back down thanks to gravity.

In the same way when you abandon sound finance and allow investment banks to sell derivative products that are unregulated, have no standard clearing function and no market, you are allowing the institutions that provide capital to the marketplace to create money out of nothing. Since the process is so profitable (at first) the banks can't resist selling these exotic instruments or even from buying them. Now that the marketplace has seen these things for what they are, they have revalued these derivatives to the point where the companies involved with them are bankrupt.

Even worse, the banks no longer are able to function properly to support what viable businesses there are.  And they are all lining up for support from the government, which incidentally means our wallets!

So now, failing businesses are able to borrow directly from the fed, exchanging worthless garbage contracts for money, at such a volume that everyone knows the government doesn't have.  Since the government can simply print money, the illusions continues, for a time, but because the govt's fiscal obligations so dwarf their ability to tax the public, the dollar is depreciating in value at an accelerating rate.

No one and nothing is going to get this country out of this decline without some major restructuring and even if someone competent could get the job, they couldn't fix enough within 4 years or even 8 to restore the US to fiscal soundness.

Someone asked about employment levels and Dabods provided some figures.  What he didn't tell you is that the methodology used to generate those numbers has changed, so comparing an employment rate from when Johnson was President to now when George Bush is President is effectively impossible.  Actual employment the way that Johnson or Nixon did it applied to today would probably give us an unemployment rate in double-digits.  About 25% of the country was out of work during the height of the great depression, we're not there yet, but I expect that we will come close to matching that in the next few years.

I watch a lot of figures to decide how and when to trade.  One of the ones I used to depend on was M3 numbers from the fed- an estimate of all the money in circulation from the US.  Well, they stopped publishing those figures anymore, saying that it was too expensive to come up with!  The Fed is a private institution given the responsibility to provide the country with money, and it's too hard for them to tell us how much of it they've printed!  IMO, they stopped providing the numbers because if they did oil and gold and other commodities would be much higher in cost than they are.  This isn't fooling anyone, who understands how money works.

The actions already taken justify a price of Gold in excess of $1600 an ounce, probably a good deal higher, but without verifiable M3 figures and an exact auditing of the US gold reserves that is impossible.  Gold is at $829 an ounce now, down from the peak of $1033 in March this year.  $845 is now resistance and once that gets taken out, it will be time to invest in mining stocks again.

In the meantime, I'm making more money selling bank stocks short at the right times. The indu's still are going to fall below 10,000, probably even below 9,500 before this bear market is over.  Nothing anyone who gets elected this fall can do to stop that!

Offline westkoast

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2008, 10:39:07 AM »
WOOOOOOW Ted...I don't know what to say.  I really hope you were joking.  I don't see how the state of our country in various fronts is even comparable to Bill Clinton getting Lil Billy touched in the oval office....the only reason why I would even think you are not joking is because a lot of people really believe that.  Not sure if you do or not.  The same people who've told me what Bill Clinton did in the oval office was one of the worst times in our countries history just so happen to be the same people who told me (just two days ago) that our country is not in bad shape and the liberal media is lying.  For what reason?  I have no clue. 

Also Jomal...I don't know if what you say about WWII is entirely true.  I don't think that everyone is quite happy with some of the things we did.  You know like drop the bomb on Japan and send all the Japanese here at home into detention camps.  What we did to the Japanese by placing them in camps (ESP our home state) was really against everything this country stood for.
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Offline ziggy

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2008, 02:12:20 PM »
Here is a very interesting article.  It is long 13 pages, but it is very interesting and very revealing.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj28n2/cj28n2-4.pdf

Here are some definitions that will help in understanding the article

Sterilized Intervention

 A method used by monetary authorities to equalize the effects of foreign exchange transactions on the domestic monetary base by offsetting the purchase or sale of domestic assets within the domestic markets. The process limits the amount of domestic currency available for foreign exchange. 
 
 Sterilized intervention is a way for a country to alter its debt composition without affecting its monetary base. It is used to counter undesirable exchange-rate movements. For example, a decrease in the value of a country's domestic currency would cause a debt instrument issued in a foreign country and denominated in that foreign country's currency to be made more expensive. 


Unsterilized Foreign Exchange Intervention

 An attempt by a country's monetary authorities to influence exchange rates and its money supply by not buying or selling domestic or foreign currencies or assets. This is a passive approach to exchange rate fluctuations, and allows for fluctuations in the monetary base. 
 
 If the central bank purchases domestic currency by selling foreign assets, the money supply will shrink because it has removed domestic currency from the market; this is an example of a sterilized policy. An unsterilized policy allows for the foreign-exchange markets to function without manipulation of the supply of the domestic currency; therefore, the monetary base is allowed to change. 
 

 
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline ziggy

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2008, 05:10:09 PM »
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 05:18:56 PM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline JoMal

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2008, 11:40:27 AM »
WOOOOOOW Ted...I don't know what to say.  I really hope you were joking.  I don't see how the state of our country in various fronts is even comparable to Bill Clinton getting Lil Billy touched in the oval office....the only reason why I would even think you are not joking is because a lot of people really believe that.  Not sure if you do or not.  The same people who've told me what Bill Clinton did in the oval office was one of the worst times in our countries history just so happen to be the same people who told me (just two days ago) that our country is not in bad shape and the liberal media is lying.  For what reason?  I have no clue. 

Also Jomal...I don't know if what you say about WWII is entirely true.  I don't think that everyone is quite happy with some of the things we did.  You know like drop the bomb on Japan and send all the Japanese here at home into detention camps.  What we did to the Japanese by placing them in camps (ESP our home state) was really against everything this country stood for.

Agreed about the Lil Billy nonsense. I really hope that was a joke as well, because if we want to judge a president because he actually has sex and with who, chances are one or two of our noble leaders were packing fudge at some point in some corner of the White House. Do we really need to know the details? Did it in any way, shape or form matter when he was setting national policy? Does it ever affect YOUR judgement the next day?

I believe, wk, that not everyone was all that happy with how things turned out in each of those historic eras. There were plenty of loyal royalists living in the colonies during the Revolutionary War, including one of the sons of Ben Franklin, who ended up moving to England. I doubt very much white slave owners wanted to give up states rights for the betterment of the country in the 1860's. And while the internment camps in this country were a knee-jerk reaction to the threat of a Japanese invasion back in the forties (a very popular and thought to be REAL threat at the time), the bombing of Japan was done to convince the Japanese to surrender, which the U.S. suggested twice prior to dropping those bombs. After first invading Okinawa, which was the first Japanese home island on which the Marines landed and where they suffered through extreme resistance as well as mass suicide by the native population, it was quickly realyzed that a similar invasion of Japan itself would have cost the allies untold casualties. It would go without saying that many of us - at least me, at any rate - would not be here today because the fathers who survived fighting the war up to that point simply would have died had they invaded Japan.

While horrific, without those bombs being dropped, we would have faced an extremely determined country led by extreme military leaders who would never surrender. Only the fact that the Emperor realyzed for himself the high cost of continuing that war prevented further bloodshed and he overruled the military wanting to fight on. Just as well, because we only had the two bombs at that time anyway and were poised to invade if they failed.

But in hindsight, it is very likely that, because we actually dropped those bombs at that time that later on, when the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were facing off during the Cold War and the threat of using nuclear weapons was so real, we practiced what we should do in bomb raids in grade school (we hid under our desks!!!), that both countries realyzed how ridiculous it would be to actually use them.

Was that a 'good' time? Maybe not at the time, but many more Japanese and Americans would have died had we not, then how many actually did.

And we are not talking Nanking devastation anyway, for which the Japanese were responsible and for which they seem to get a free pass on when Hiroshima is brought up.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Ted

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2008, 12:32:49 PM »
Yeah, I would say seeing the actual collapse of what was once the greatest country the world has ever known due to internal stupidity qualifies as the absolute worse time in the country's history.

Wow! When you completely and conveniently ingore the incalculable human suffering (and millions of lost lives) out of those pivotal events of American history, the last 8 years really does feel pretty crappy.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT - Politics doesn't make sense to me
« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2008, 12:34:53 PM »
And we are not talking Nanking devastation anyway, for which the Japanese were responsible and for which they seem to get a free pass on when Hiroshima is brought up.

It's odd how the Nanking massacre is rarely compared to the Holocaust (sic?) or the Killing Fields of Cambodia.  We are guilty of the same thing in regards to the surgar coating of the Native American genocide but WWII is a lot more recent and much of the true horrors of that war have yet to hit the main stream conciousness.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 12:44:30 PM by WayOutWest »
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"