Author Topic: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?  (Read 5246 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2008, 09:17:03 PM »
Do tell Your Tardence,
just who were the other Spurs starters?

2007 Champion Spurs
Finley
Barry
_____
_____
_____

I've got Timmy Dunks, Fabs, Bowen Parker.
Yet you claim Barrdog and Finley started.
Jomal launch another fart to counteract the lame one WoW just attempted.
Plus it's who finishes, not neccessarily who starts.
Most all of the examples they played similiar minutes to Posey.

2005 Champion Spurs playoff starters
Timmy Dunks
Naz Mohammed
Tony Parker
Bowen
GNob

You been owned.  Not just owned, butt owned.

I'm talking about careers, those players were established guys before hooking up with title teams late in their careers, Posey was never much of a player before he hit thirty, UNLIKE THE GUYS YOU LISTED, so I don't expect much from him after 30.  READ THE ARTICLE, IT HAS ALL THE DETAILS.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2008, 09:20:53 PM »
Here, I'll make it easy for you:

You knew this was coming -- the inevitable overreaction to a role player on a championship team in free agency. Every year there's one guy whom teams can't stop fawning over, and this year it was James Posey. Sure, he was an integral part of championship teams for both Miami and Boston, but as with a lot of players who win rings it can be hard for us to look at him rationally.

That's why role players on title winners tend to get unusually generous contracts, and Posey appears to be the latest example. The same guy who inked a two-year deal (the second was a player option) for just a portion of the midlevel exception last summer to join the Celtics suddenly finds himself enriched with a four-year, $25 million deal by the Hornets. If that seems excessive for a 31-year-old who hasn't averaged more than 8.1 points per game in any of the past four seasons, it's because it is.

It's true that Posey brings three things to the table: defense, rebounding and 3-point shooting. He's not an all-defense guy, but he's an above-average defender who can play multiple positions, and that's certainly helpful. So are the 3s -- in his past three campaigns he's hit 40.3 percent, 37.5 percent and 38.0 percent from downtown. And he's an underrated defensive rebounder who had the third-best defensive rebound rate among small forwards last season.

But those strengths need to be seen in the context of the bigger picture. The guy has all but abandoned shooting anything besides a 3 -- two-thirds of his shots were triples, the fourth-highest rate in the league and the highest among nonguards -- so despite the 3s, he's a fairly inert offensive player.

And, as I mentioned, he's a 31-year-old who will be handsomely paid 'til age 35. Nobody wanted to pay him this kind of dough when he was 30, and his production wasn't any different last year -- just the result in June.

And since this is so hard for people to remember, I'll say it again: The Hornets aren't paying for what Posey gave the Celtics last year, or what he gave the Heat in 2006, but for what he can potentially give the Hornets from 2008 to 2012. And that production is likely to diminish substantially from its already modest levels.

Comb through the books and try to find perimeter players who played well until 35 -- it's tough. Now try to find some who played well 'til that age after scoring single figures in their 20s. Good luck.

For better insight into Posey's future, let's take a look at what happened to some similar players -- those who rated as statistically similar based on their performance at the same age, played primarily on the wing and were in his league as a defender. The top names on that list are Bryon Russell, Dan Majerle, Jaren Jackson, Rick Fox and Raja Bell.

? Bell is only a year older and declined noticeably last season.
? Majerle declined sharply starting at 30 and had his last useful season at 32.
? Jackson had a quality season at 32 but played 25 games the rest of his career.
? Russell lost it at 31 and never got it back, though he managed to hang around for four more years.
? Fox played reasonably well until 33 and then lost it, hard, and was out of the league by 35.

Swim deeper in the similarity pool and you'll find similar stories from Walter McCarty, Shandon Anderson, Lucious Harris, Doug Christie, Eddie Jones and Aaron McKie.

Yes, you'll find a couple exceptions if you look hard enough, most notably Mario Elie and Bruce Bowen. But the big-picture takeaway is that most players decline sharply between ages 31 and 35, and if Posey wasn't that good at 31 he's likely to be unplayable by the time he's 35. That's why nobody else wanted to give him four guaranteed years.

I have two other problems with this signing from the Hornets' perspective. First, it doesn't address their main weaknesses. New Orleans badly needs additional frontcourt depth and it seemed only reasonable that it would use the midlevel exception to address that need.

If not a frontcourt player, one presumed the Hornets would at least use the midlevel to target a shooting guard, where Morris Peterson was up and down this past season. Perhaps they think Posey can play the 2 full time, but that seems a major stretch for a guy who has played almost exclusively the 3 and 4 with Miami and Boston.

Second, Posey creates a playing-time problem because he's a natural 3 who can swing to the 4 in small-ball lineups -- just like their 2007 first-round pick, Julian Wright. Presumably Wright will now be buried on the bench -- even though he was immensely productive in his limited minutes last season and figures to be better in his second season.

As for Boston, losing Posey certainly was a blow, but it was correct not to match the Hornets' overreaction. If Tony Allen comes back healthy he can replace a lot of the defensive mettle Posey provided, while the hope is that rookies J.R. Giddens and Bill Walker can also fill in some of the departed production. And if those options don't work out, of course, it's easier for the Celtics to sign or trade for a replacement if they're not saddled by a long-term midlevel commitment to Posey.

So I'm not a big fan of his move. The Hornets have the nucleus of an outstanding team with Chris Paul, David West and Tyson Chandler, but I worry that they're forcing the issue with big-money veteran signings like Posey and Peja Stojakovic two years ago instead of a more patient approach. The fact that this move didn't address any apparent need, while overpaying a player who seems certain to decline, only makes it more puzzling. New Orleans has enough talent on hand that the Hornets may very well make a deep playoff run anyway, but it's hard for me to see how this improved their odds much.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider

"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

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Offline westkoast

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2008, 09:35:56 AM »
Reality do you honestly feel that this was a good move for them?  They over paid for Posey.  That is undeniable.  I don't think anyone is saying he sucks but it doesn't really address why they were unable to get out of the 2nd round does it? 
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jemagee

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2008, 09:58:12 AM »
Sure it does

He 'play the game the right way'

Plus, he has two rings, so he knows what it takes to get to the nba finals, something no one on the hornets knows how to do...everyone knows that.


Offline Reality

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2008, 10:41:02 AM »
Reality do you honestly feel that this was a good move for them?  They over paid for Posey.  That is undeniable.  I don't think anyone is saying he sucks but it doesn't really address why they were unable to get out of the 2nd round does it? 
Yes, they overpaid for him.  So what.  Already addressed its a one or two year shot.  Plus what jemagee already echoed.  I really believe Posey has some Bob Horry aura know-how in him. 
Also on the frontline front, the season has not yet begun.  Lets see what else the Hornets do to match up with LA and the other Westies frontlines.

The only problem as i see it has Posey, Stoyo and last years rookie all playing about the same position.
Still, that can be a good "problem' to have.  Barrdog-Finley-Manu worked out okay, not great but okay (one title in three years), but that is because Pop is such a dumbass and didn't know how to rotate them in 2008.

jemagee

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2008, 10:44:13 AM »
Quote
Yes, they overpaid for him.  So what.  Already addressed its a one or two year shot.  Plus what jemagee already echoed.  I really believe Posey has some Bob Horry aura know-how in him.

Except that when I said it I was meaning to be sarcastic and dismissive of such silly sentiments

Offline JoMal

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2008, 12:00:54 PM »
So the Hornets are paying Posey 25 mil over four years to provide "playoff experience", a three-point option off the bench and a defensive presence.

Reality thinks the Hornets did right by bringing in a playoff vet; WOW thinks they screwed themselves by not putting money elsewhere, where the team really needed it, instead of in a guy not expected to be very productive in, say, two years down the road; jemagee thinks they overvalued Posey by paying him so much.

What do the Hornets think? That one of their biggest issues last year was having an inexperienced playoff team, so they decided to bring in a guy who has plenty. Posey is being overpaid, no question, but then, this is a classic case of cashing in when the demand is high. He wanted a four year deal and the Hornets gave it to them. The Celtics really did not need him back, so see ya. If he can give the shaky Hornets some stability, this was a gamble worth taking; if it fails, they actually can do more maneuvering in the next few years, the biggest move, of course, would be signing Paul to big money. They should still try to address their backcourt holes yet and I think that is going to happen.   
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jemagee

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2008, 12:05:52 PM »
Quote
What do the Hornets think? That one of their biggest issues last year was having an inexperienced playoff team, so they decided to bring in a guy

Except now they have more playoff experience and won the first round, they lost to a better team, is james posey going to make the rest of their roster BETTER then the top ecehlon teams in the west?  Don't really think so.

It's a classic case of 'cashing in when demand is high' on the player side, and on the team side it's a classic case of 'stupid'

Offline JoMal

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2008, 12:09:28 PM »
It must have sounded good to them at the time.

What is that old saying? 'Those who chose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it.'
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

jemagee

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2008, 12:14:36 PM »
It must have sounded good to them at the time.

What is that old saying? 'Those who chose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it.'

And in the NBA ignoring history seems to be a common theme...

Offline JoMal

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2008, 12:39:32 PM »
It must have sounded good to them at the time.

What is that old saying? 'Those who chose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it.'

And in the NBA ignoring history seems to be a common theme...

I think they pay people to ignore history. Cookie-cutter executives who do what everyone else does, regardless of the longterm results.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Lurker

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2008, 12:48:40 PM »
What do the Hornets think? That one of their biggest issues last year was having an inexperienced playoff team, so they decided to bring in a guy who has plenty. Posey is being overpaid, no question, but then, this is a classic case of cashing in when the demand is high. He wanted a four year deal and the Hornets gave it to them. The Celtics really did not need him back, so see ya. If he can give the shaky Hornets some stability, this was a gamble worth taking; if it fails, they actually can do more maneuvering in the next few years, the biggest move, of course, would be signing Paul to big money. They should still try to address their backcourt holes yet and I think that is going to happen.   

So 60 CAREER playoff games is "playoff experience"....and 26 of them were this past season.   And 3 different teams at that.  And if Posey were so critical then why did Boston have so much trouble with the first 2 rounds of the playoffs?  Posey has been in the league 9 years and been in the playoffs in 5 of them.  Three of the five were 4 and done.  If he was such a great playoff vet then why couldn't he help his teams make deep runs year after year?  Only with Wade/Shaw and Boston's big 3 did he look good in the playoffs.

So before last season's playoff run Posey had played in 34 playoff games.  By contrast...Peja had played 59.  Pargo 21.  Chandler 12.  Bonzi 36.  Rasual Butler 22.  The Hornets lack of playoff experience was overblown.  And Posey isn't the answer to that.  Hell, Butler & Wells gives you everything you are going to get from Posey in the "leadership" department.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2008, 12:55:07 PM »
What do the Hornets think? That one of their biggest issues last year was having an inexperienced playoff team, so they decided to bring in a guy who has plenty. Posey is being overpaid, no question, but then, this is a classic case of cashing in when the demand is high. He wanted a four year deal and the Hornets gave it to them. The Celtics really did not need him back, so see ya. If he can give the shaky Hornets some stability, this was a gamble worth taking; if it fails, they actually can do more maneuvering in the next few years, the biggest move, of course, would be signing Paul to big money. They should still try to address their backcourt holes yet and I think that is going to happen.   

So 60 CAREER playoff games is "playoff experience"....and 26 of them were this past season.   And 3 different teams at that.  And if Posey were so critical then why did Boston have so much trouble with the first 2 rounds of the playoffs?  Posey has been in the league 9 years and been in the playoffs in 5 of them.  Three of the five were 4 and done.  If he was such a great playoff vet then why couldn't he help his teams make deep runs year after year?  Only with Wade/Shaw and Boston's big 3 did he look good in the playoffs.

So before last season's playoff run Posey had played in 34 playoff games.  By contrast...Peja had played 59.  Pargo 21.  Chandler 12.  Bonzi 36.  Rasual Butler 22.  The Hornets lack of playoff experience was overblown.  And Posey isn't the answer to that.  Hell, Butler & Wells gives you everything you are going to get from Posey in the "leadership" department.


So it still begs the question, what were the Hornets thinking? This signing was a reaction of some kind.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

jemagee

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2008, 12:58:05 PM »
Quote
So it still begs the question, what were the Hornets thinking? This signing was a reaction of some kind.

Maybe they don't listen to public enemy?

Offline westkoast

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Re: Posey and Barry signings, anybody care?
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2008, 03:42:43 PM »
What do the Hornets think? That one of their biggest issues last year was having an inexperienced playoff team, so they decided to bring in a guy who has plenty. Posey is being overpaid, no question, but then, this is a classic case of cashing in when the demand is high. He wanted a four year deal and the Hornets gave it to them. The Celtics really did not need him back, so see ya. If he can give the shaky Hornets some stability, this was a gamble worth taking; if it fails, they actually can do more maneuvering in the next few years, the biggest move, of course, would be signing Paul to big money. They should still try to address their backcourt holes yet and I think that is going to happen.   

So 60 CAREER playoff games is "playoff experience"....and 26 of them were this past season.   And 3 different teams at that.  And if Posey were so critical then why did Boston have so much trouble with the first 2 rounds of the playoffs?  Posey has been in the league 9 years and been in the playoffs in 5 of them.  Three of the five were 4 and done.  If he was such a great playoff vet then why couldn't he help his teams make deep runs year after year?  Only with Wade/Shaw and Boston's big 3 did he look good in the playoffs.

So before last season's playoff run Posey had played in 34 playoff games.  By contrast...Peja had played 59.  Pargo 21.  Chandler 12.  Bonzi 36.  Rasual Butler 22.  The Hornets lack of playoff experience was overblown.  And Posey isn't the answer to that.  Hell, Butler & Wells gives you everything you are going to get from Posey in the "leadership" department.


So it still begs the question, what were the Hornets thinking? This signing was a reaction of some kind.

I hope it wasn't a reaction to the Spurs/Manu from last years playoffs.  James Posey is not the answer.
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