Author Topic: Player Movement Thread (Was Free Agency Thread)  (Read 253702 times)

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #720 on: July 22, 2008, 09:07:37 AM »
Childress looks seroius about going to greece, the whole 'team childress' is there, greece is a beautiful place to live compared to atlanta according to some people, he's getting a better contract offer and doesn't have to pay taxes

Luol Deng tells the bulls that if they don't have a deal by the time the olympics start, he's done negotating, will take tender offer and be a UFA next year

Emeka Okafor is rumored to be done dealing with the bobcats, and either wants them to work out a sign and trade somewhere or he'll take the one year tender.

The warriors and sixers are making no movement with their restricted free agents.

You know what word comes to mind?

Collusion

Is that also the word that came to mind last year when a lot of these same RFAs turned down big offers?

Offline tk76-

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #721 on: July 22, 2008, 09:13:04 AM »
Is it really collusion?  The teams with cap space went after different players who were UFA and thus more available(Brand, Davis, Magette and Arenas.)  That leaves Memphis and the teams who have theri own RFA's.  Saying a team w/ a RFA is unwilling to trade away their player is not akin to collusion.

Its more a sign of the strength of ownership/Stern and the CBA he shoved down the Players Assocs throat.  Before the changes in the CAB, players had been gettin 20M contracts, and now teams are stuck over the cap, effectively reducing open market forces.  Not the same as collusion.

Its akin to the housing crisis.  People are stuck in upside down mortgages of previously over-valued houses.  No one is able to move or acquire the capital to buy a house- so many great house sit on the market, even if they could be bought for what previously would be seen as below market value.  No one would call it collusion.  Think of a player taking the tender or moving to Europe the equivalent of forclosure.  Not exactly the best outcome for anyy of the parties involved.



Offline darius08

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #722 on: July 22, 2008, 09:34:59 AM »
If all of these guys take the tender, next year's free agent pool is going to be fabulous. At best one or two of them are targeted by teams with cap space. The rest will have to settle for the MLE. Can you imagine being able to nab guys like Gordon for the MLE? Reminds me of how Detroit got Billups.

Offline Skates

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #723 on: July 22, 2008, 09:44:17 AM »
Childress looks seroius about going to greece, the whole 'team childress' is there, greece is a beautiful place to live compared to atlanta according to some people, he's getting a better contract offer and doesn't have to pay taxes

Luol Deng tells the bulls that if they don't have a deal by the time the olympics start, he's done negotating, will take tender offer and be a UFA next year

Emeka Okafor is rumored to be done dealing with the bobcats, and either wants them to work out a sign and trade somewhere or he'll take the one year tender.

The warriors and sixers are making no movement with their restricted free agents.

You know what word comes to mind?

Collusion

I don't think their is actual collusion, but apparent collusion caused by the system and psychological factors.  

1.  Most teams are capped out.  This has 2 effects, less available leverage for these RFAs being the obvious one.  Less obvious is that after years of the current system these capped out teams have in many cases replaced management with younger, more financially savvier GMs and assistant GMs.  Teams are starting to realize that under this CBA if you put yourself in cap hell, you are screwed for a very long time.  Just taking the insanity of the Knicks and Mavs, who aren't or can't, spend like crazy has removed a lot of available money from the system.  Just look at how teams are demanding first round picks just to take on salary (Kurt Thomas last year, Carney and Booth this year) or dumping good players like Camby for less than peanuts.  Cap space is what everyone wants now, of course, in a few years they will have spent it in the 2010 orgy to come.

2.  The luxury tax has finally created a real hard cap.  Even the big franchises don't want to cross that line anymore and most that did found that they could not buy a championship.

3.  The slotting system is finally developing.  By creating a system of maximum and minimum player salaries in the CBA, a natural stratification of players is occurring.  For a while GM's like BK did not catch onto this and routinely overpaid for mediocre players.  Given the factors discussed above we are starting to see teams say, you are a second rate star, you don't get the max.  For a while any promising young player got the 4 year max with no stratification between the Iversons and Van Horns of the world.  Experience, better management and the luxury tax have forced teams to start strtifying or slotting their stars.  Again, when teams have tons of cash in 2010 and a limited number of true stars to spend it on, expect to see a sellers market again.  Right now we are in a buyers market.

4.  2010 - It is what everyone is waiting for.  The economy is in a recession (no matter what TPTB say), raising ticket prices will be tough for a few years and everyone is saving for summer 2010 as if they are all going to be getting James and Bosh.  Personally, I would prefer to have a team full of signed up prime young talent heading into 2010 with a few expiring contracts to trade.  having a billion dollars in cap space menas generally you have a crappy team, maybe with some promising young guys, but not in or near their primes.  I think teams like Philly and Chicago (if they sign their RFAs to good contracts now), Portland, LAC and Seattle will be in better positions, except geographically, than stripped down versions of the Nets and Knicks to grab those big name players in S&T deals.  they will have teams ready to compete and talent and contracts ready to trade.

5.  Ego - No agent or team wants to go first signing their RFA's this year for fear of looking like they made a bad deal.  Again this goes to the idea of startification or slotting.  The true superstars like Deron Williams and CP3 have been paid the max, the current crop of RFAs are all second level guys, similar in talent and appeal.  It is similar to the slow progress you see in signing NFL first rounders.  Once a few get signed, the rest will follow.  Who is brave enough to go first?  Personally I think most of the talk out of Philly and GS has seemed quiet and cooperative.  I expect Iggy, Williams, Ellis and Biedrins to get signed without much trouble.  these teams seem to be working harder behind the scenes.  GS probably goes first, with Philly and Chicago to follow.  Charlotte and Atlanta are just bad franchises with bad management.

Stern is too smart to illegaly promote or tolerate obvious collusion, but he is also a smart enough guy to have essentially created this slotting and stratification over time.  It took several years for the luxury tax to really become a factor, but after getting burned by the tax or seeing other teams get burned by it, owners have canned the guys who overpaid (bye bye BK, BK2, Isiah, sadly the new guy in Milwaukee is as bad as the old one) and hired the new young guns like Stefanski, Presti, Pritchard, etc to run their teams without making them go broke.  Plus a lot of these rich owners are taking ahit themselves with the stock market tanking and want to amke some money from their toys, instead of losing it.  Collusion, not really, let's call it Stern-allusion and it's completely legal.

jemagee

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #724 on: July 22, 2008, 09:53:26 AM »
Quote
Stern is too smart to illegaly promote or tolerate obvious collusion

Hell Bud Selig is too smart to promote obvious collusion, but doesn't mean he ain't proud no one is signing the best available free agent bat :)

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #725 on: July 22, 2008, 10:59:09 AM »
I'm not calling collusion when Gordon, Deng, and Iguodala were all offered 50+ mil extensions last summer.  How about blaming the players instead of ownership and the commish?  Blame ownership in Atlanta and Charlotte for actively pissing off their players, but don't call it collusion.  Don't blame Chicago and Philly for not upping the contract offers they thought were fair last year when none of them did anything to help their stock (except LouWill, who hasn't complained at all).  Deng and Iggy want to be called first rate stars and be paid like them.  Gordon wants to be called a 2nd rate star and be paid like one.  The GMs obviously feel like they're not at those levels, and I don't think anybody could really disagree.

jemagee

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #726 on: July 22, 2008, 11:09:35 AM »
Sixers offered iguodala 57 million
reportedly iguodala wanted 60 million

over a 5 year deal that's a 600K per year difference, if the sixers really fracked this all up over 600K (brand withstanding) i want the sixers to hire billy king so again just so they can fire him all over again.

Also, I'm not sure what to tell you when you say Iguodala didn't help his stock last year...unless of course you are one of those people who only looks at 6 games as opposed to an entire season.


Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #727 on: July 22, 2008, 11:23:25 AM »
Sixers offered iguodala 57 million
reportedly iguodala wanted 60 million

over a 5 year deal that's a 600K per year difference, if the sixers really fracked this all up over 600K (brand withstanding) i want the sixers to hire billy king so again just so they can fire him all over again.

Also, I'm not sure what to tell you when you say Iguodala didn't help his stock last year...unless of course you are one of those people who only looks at 6 games as opposed to an entire season.

I can't comment about the 57/60 thing because we never really heard anything specific about it.

But let me ask you this.  Did you think Iguodala was worth 5/57 or 5/60 last year? Remember, it was BK offering the contract, which almost necessarily meant it was probably above market value as it was.  I personally think Iguodala went from a 5/50 player to a 5/60 player.  Iguodala thinks he went from 5/57 to 5/70 or whatever.  So I think he helped his stock, but I think BK made his stock look higher than it was last year.

Offline tk76-

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #728 on: July 22, 2008, 11:30:08 AM »
Per Tom Moore at PhillyBurbs, the parties were 8M apart.  That is a substantial amount, but I agree they should have been able to meet half way and aver this situation.

I have no issue with players getting overpayed if they find a take to give them an offer sheet.  I am less sympathetic of greedy players who force trades based on mistaken notions that they are max players.  If Iguodala thinks he is a max or nothing player I would go for the nothing option, and let him sign the tender or hold out.

Offline tk76-

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #729 on: July 22, 2008, 11:40:07 AM »
if Andre Iguodala thinks he's worth the max and a team offers him the max, guess what, he's worth exactly what he said he was worth....as long as one team is willing to pay it, he's worth it.

I have no interest in rooting for anyone from the carter/mcgrady family

Agree on the TMac/VC point.  VC in particular seems to be garbage, regardless of how well he dunks.  Both also went to the "watch me jack up low percentage 25 footers" school of basketball.

As forthe Max contract- if a team has the resources to offer Iguiodala an offer sheet, or make a legit attractive trade for him then that's how the market works.  From what I see Iguodala doesn't have those options.  What he wants is to force the team to give him away to teams that can't give back more than horrible 20M contract garbage.  of course those teams are willing to overpay Iguodala at 13M if it means they can dump their aging 20M losers.  That's not the same as having value on the free market.

The Sixers would have gladly overpaid Kevin Martin 13M/year if Sac would have taken back CWebb's 20M useless contract- doesn't mean that the Sixers would have had any leverage to get that type of deal done.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #730 on: July 22, 2008, 11:49:31 AM »
Quote
if Andre Iguodala thinks he's worth the max and a team offers him the max, guess what, he's worth exactly what he said he was worth....as long as one team is willing to pay it, he's worth it.

Depends on how you define worth.

Worth in the capitalist sense, then yes, he's worth whatever he can get.  But in basketball, you're projecting his contract against the value he brings to a basketball court.  This is the worth you have to take into consideration with deals.  Just because a team is willing to sign a player to a contract doesn't mean that is a good contract.  Otherwise, every player would be "worth" the contract he's signed to, and we all know that's not the case.

jemagee

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #731 on: July 22, 2008, 11:54:22 AM »
If there's a team out there willing to pay iguodala more than the sixers are offering, then the sixers can try and work out a sign and trade, or he can take a one year tender and try and work it out next year(or go to europe it seems but i don't know how his game translates to the euro game), unless the rockets and nets approached iguodala the sixers can't 'force' him to go to those teams unless he really wants to play there

Offline tk76-

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #732 on: July 22, 2008, 11:59:12 AM »
His market value is defined by what teams that can acquire him are willing to pay.  If teams are only willing to offer garbage 20M contracts in exchange for him, then the Sixers should not feel compelled to make a deal.  If Ed feels one of these garbage 20M guys is worth getting then I guess a deal gets done- but it shoiuld not be because Pelinka is calling the shots.  Its not collusion to refuse to take back a horrible contract in a trade.  let him sit or sign the tender.

If someone offers a valuable young player like Kevin Martin or even Gordon or Gerald Wallace, then the Sixers have to think about it, and I would feel it unfair that they are lowballing him.

Again, right now the only teams that are willing to overpay are teams that are looking to unload older players who are even more overpaid.  just like the Sixers would overpay a 5M shooter if someone would take Evans of their hands.  That's not how market value is set.

jemagee

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #733 on: July 22, 2008, 12:05:47 PM »
I still like the idea of kirk hinrich, but don't get all this BYC nonsense, would there be any way to work out a S&T for hinrich and gordon?

Offline tk76-

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Re: Tracking Free Agency
« Reply #734 on: July 22, 2008, 12:15:13 PM »
I still like the idea of kirk hinrich, but don't get all this BYC nonsense, would there be any way to work out a S&T for hinrich and gordon?

Not without ending up way over the tax.