Curt Schilling on Kobe

[Derek Bodner]

Never mentoring younger pitchers may have been slightly too strong.  I'll concede that one.

That being said, I don't feel that one quote from one teammate proves he is a leader in the clubhouse.  To be a leader in the clubhouse, you have to demand respect.  You have to support your teammates.  You have to be a calming influence, a guy able to help others focus.  Kruk's comments about Darren Daulton are dead on.  HE was a leader.  He's now certifiably psychotic, but when in that locker room, he commanded respect.  People listened.  Curt might have some people listen to him, but he has just as many roll their eyes when he speaks as he does who listens.  That, to me, isn't a leader.

I also don't agree with calling Kruk a ass.  He always came off to me as a likable character, and I don't recall ever hearing any problems with him in the clubhouse.

Curt's problem with Philly management, which he stated publicly numerous times, was that he didn't feel that were doing everything they could to win, and that they weren't trying to win at all costs.  I'm not sure how that contradicts what Ed Wade said about Curt being an ass.  Is it possible that the Phillies management was doing a bad job AND Curt Schilling's an ass?  I certainly don't see the two being mutually exclusive.

The reason Terrell Owens was brought up was twofold.  One, he put himself at career-threatening risk bringing himself back from his fractured fibula early against his doctors recommendation, and put in an incredible performance (9 catches, 122 yards) to boot.  And second, Reality has been critical of TO in the past, so this was a good illustration of why the bloody sock alone was not proof of leadership (unlike Ted, the bloody sock was reality's only point).

I'm also not sure how you can say I ignored your other evidence.  I rebutted your evidence.  That's different.  I'm not sure why this has gotten hostile, I simply disagree with you that Curt is a good leader.  It's not that deep.  Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep.  Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.

Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling.  This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant.  Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.

[JoMal]

Oh, and Derek, a polygamy joke? You're better than that. Living with so much sports futility has given you a lazy sense of humor. For future reference, I have a huge head (hat size is "8"), am about 35 pounds overweight, and have toenail fungus. That ought to help you be more original.

So what you are saying is that if you lost about 30 pounds, your hat size would go down to two?

Now that THAT is out of the way, we can go back to who lacks the most leadership question. My vote is Kobe, but then, I am an old fart with hearing problems that apparently affect my posting here and comprehension, though that one still needs to be explained to me by Laker Fan.  

[Reality]

Schilling was also said to be a great mentor and teamate in Arizona.  Not only with the young pitchers but with Randy Johnson.  Johnson said Shilling completely helped him with the mental aspect of the game, something he had problems with in big games previously.  Arizona, you know, the team that ended the Skankie mini dynasty?  All your points Dabods are from Phillies era.

Also could we discuss what Schilling said about Kobme, not the messanger?

[JoMal]

I'm also not sure how you can say I ignored your other evidence.  I rebutted your evidence.  That's different.  I'm not sure why this has gotten hostile, I simply disagree with you that Curt is a good leader.  It's not that deep.  Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep.  Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.

Oh. come on, dabods. I laugh hysterically at every one of your posts. I mean, you ARE joking in all of them, right? I certainly hope so.

[Ted]

It's not that deep.  Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep.  Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.

Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling.  This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant.  Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.

I stopped taking offense at polygamy jokes when . . . well I can't remember when. I took offense at you not deeming me worthy of your intellectual humor. You see, I expect bigamy jokes from westkoast and WoW because, well, it's really all they've got. You, on the other hand, can do much better, and the next time I deliberately bait you, I'd appreciate your best effort!

And yes, why are we arguing over a guy like Curt Schilling? I'm ready to move on.

[westkoast]

It's not that deep.  Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep.  Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.

Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling.  This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant.  Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.

I stopped taking offense at polygamy jokes when . . . well I can't remember when. I took offense at you not deeming me worthy of your intellectual humor. You see, I expect bigamy jokes from westkoast and WoW because, well, it's really all they've got. You, on the other hand, can do much better, and the next time I deliberately bait you, I'd appreciate your best effort!

And yes, why are we arguing over a guy like Curt Schilling? I'm ready to move on.

I only made that joke once.  WOW loves them though.  Just to let you guys know not all Laker posters are one in the same, in case you forgot.

Surprise Surprise that JoMal picks Kobe a guy who leads his team to win big playoff games almost single handily at times over a guy who has never done that.  Who would have guessed 

[JoMal]

It's not that deep.  Nor did I expect you to take offense to a polygamy joke, which I tried to throw in showing that this debate isn't that deep.  Apparently that failed as well, and I'll never make a joke again on the forums.

Finally, this thread was never about Curt Schilling.  This thread has always been about Kobe Bryant.  Whenever reality can find something to attack Kobe, regardless of the validity of the source, he's going to start a thread on it, so we're really wasting our time debating the merits of Curt Schilling as a leader.

I stopped taking offense at polygamy jokes when . . . well I can't remember when. I took offense at you not deeming me worthy of your intellectual humor. You see, I expect bigamy jokes from westkoast and WoW because, well, it's really all they've got. You, on the other hand, can do much better, and the next time I deliberately bait you, I'd appreciate your best effort!

And yes, why are we arguing over a guy like Curt Schilling? I'm ready to move on.

I only made that joke once.  WOW loves them though.  Just to let you guys know not all Laker posters are one in the same, in case you forgot.

Surprise Surprise that JoMal picks Kobe a guy who leads his team to win big playoff games almost single handily at times over a guy who has never done that.  Who would have guessed 

Perceptions run deep. Kobe just seems like a faux leader - a guy who posters and puts on rants, but never seems to be 'real' while doing it. On that point, I have to agree with Schilling. I don't know much about Schilling's leadership, but at the very least he does not appear to act phony about it. Bryant just seems like a phony.

Sorry if that offends you, but it is just my opinion. Leadership on the court by ballhogging, then telling reporters how he consciously works to get his teammates involved - does a natural leader have to explain when he is "leading"

[msc]

Sorry if that offends you, but it is just my opinion. Leadership on the court by ballhogging, then telling reporters how he consciously works to get his teammates involved - does a natural leader have to explain when he is "leading"

Hey, it worked out pretty well for Jordan. 

[JoMal]

Sorry if that offends you, but it is just my opinion. Leadership on the court by ballhogging, then telling reporters how he consciously works to get his teammates involved - does a natural leader have to explain when he is "leading"

Hey, it worked out pretty well for Jordan. 

Jordan's teammates seemed to respect and accept his leadership role more then Kobe's do. When he talked about it, somehow everyone was on board with it. Again, perceptions.

[msc]

Jordan's teammates seemed to respect and accept his leadership role more then Kobe's do. When he talked about it, somehow everyone was on board with it. Again, perceptions.

Agreed that it's all about perceptions.  My perception of Jordan was extremely similar to many of the popular perceptions of Kobe today: arrogant, ballhog, me-first, cocky, corporate whore, gets every foul call from the refs, etc.  A huge difference is the media today.  Jordan's heyday precedes the internet/blog/forum/sports talk radio/14 ESPN channels day where every freaking word that came out of your mouth was examined, discussed and debated ad nauseam.  I was listening to Dan Patrick or Collin Cowherd the other morning and someone (can't remember who, Reggie Miller maybe?) was saying they spoke to Jordan about Kobe and Jordan was quick to say he would no doubt have been viewed differently by the public in todays media driven world and was glad he didn't have to go through that in his career to the same extent that Kobe and others do. 

So yeah, perception is everything and it's rarely reality.  The reality is Jordan was a complete womanizer and compulsive gambler who in all likeliness made Kobe look like a choir boy.  He was also known to yell, scream and berate his teammates for not performing ala Kobe.  Some people call that leading, others call it being a bad teammate.  I'm not sure, but I'd take Jordan and Kobe on my team any day of the week. 

I completely agree, perception is everything. 

[JoMal]

Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.

[msc]

Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.

In my perception, Kobe's teammates respect the hell out of him.  He's the reason they are where they are today and all of them will tell you that regardless of what that POS Schilling says he saw on the court.  Your perception is obviously very different from mine.  A lot of that is due to your utter contempt of Kobe.  Another and IMO more significant reason is because you don't watch and read every local article/interview/news nugget regarding the Lakers and I do.  I absorb more of what the team says to the media on a daily basis and there is tremendous respect levied at Kobe from his teammates.  You as an outside national fan perpetuate the common perception by reading Curt Shillings blog that was pasted on every national news source and quickly plug that in to fit your own perception of Kobe.  I prefer to rely on the countless pregame and postgame interviews and sound bytes I absorb from his teammates over the course of an 82 game season and a 16 game (hopefully) playoff run. 

I realize you'll likely see this as me being a homer and blinded by my admiration for the Lakers.  To that I would submit that there is something to be said for being in the "trenches" if you will concerning the media.  In other words being entrenched in the local media vs. only being exposed to the national media.  Obviously, you know more of the day to day, ins and outs of the Kings franchise and their player personas being there locally, right? 

[westkoast]

Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.

I would love for you to once again enlighten us with where you get this information/idea from.  And please for the love of god don't dig up 3 year old 'unanimous' comments made a player who's name is not given.  I think this is yet another case of you busting out your crystal ball and trying to see things that others do not see.

[JoMal]

Speaking of which, I just do not see Kobe's teammates respecting Bryant's leadership role on the team as Jordan's did his. Maybe you are right in the media coverage, but Jordan's teammates were never caught rolling their eyes after Michael bit their heads off. Kobe's appear to just tune him out and walk away without appearing to have listened.

  And please for the love of god don't dig up 3 year old 'unanimous' comments made a player who's name is not given.