The Iverson trade, how did it work out?

[Reality]

'bods and rt it's kind of complicated to follow what became of all the participants in the trade, so break it down for us please.

Philly got Andre Miller, Joe Smith and two 2007 first-round picks.
Denver Nuggets got Allen Iverson and Ivan McFarlin.

How do you think it turned out? 

Denver has won as many games as they did all last season in a very tough 2007-8 West.  I don't have the record on what they finshed the 2nd half of 2006-7 with Iverson, but improvement with A.I. seemed to happen last season also.  Can the cornrow punks come thru in this seasons playoffs?  It's gonna depend on seeding.  Kenyon Martin is playing much better after the knee surgeries.  JR Smith playing very well.  Najera is a good all around hustle role player.

Philly has already surpassed last seasons win total (right?) and can scale to 5th seed (better?) in the Leastern, right?  That has got to be considered a major improvement barring collape the final 10 games.

Who were Phillys two 2007 1st round picks via the trade?  (Of 3 overall 1st rd picks for Sixers).
Thaddeus Young at #12 is obviously a total score for the Sixers. 
Daequan Cook #21 was traded to the Heat for who?  How has that worked out?
Petteri Koponen #30 traded to Portland.  Ditto, who and how?
Joe Smith, what did Philly get for him?  Smith is contributing at Cleveland.

 

[Derek Bodner]

Thaddeus was drafted with the Sixers own pick, not one they acquired via trade.
Cook was traded for Jason Smith.  Meh.  Jason's a viable 4th big in the rotation.  I don't see his upside as being more than that.
Koponen was given away because we didn't want another first round salary.
Joe Smith walked in free agency.  We got 2008 cap space for him.

The trade was, and still is, IMO a mistake, mostly because of what they were targeting.  The two first round picks they netted were never going to amount to much, and in the end they turned into one bench player.  They didn't get enough cap space, and instead got a vet to patch into the lineup and make a makeshift contender that can compete for a playoff spot, but not a championship contender.  The trade should have never been made by a GM who needed to win now and keep his job over one who had job security and could have had a long term goal in mind.

[Randy]

I actually like the trade -- not because the Sixers got what they should have for AI but that it caused the Sixers to move forward.  If AI were still with the Sixers, he would still be the focus of the offense and I like the way they are sharing the ball now.

Trading a superstar just NEVER profits in the long run (unless you find another team that's willing to give you an All-Star).

[Reality]

Sixers sure blew it in the final minute and a half today vs Cleveland.
Guard against the three for goodness sake.  Ahead by 3 or 4 and they give up back to back treys to Delmonte West?

And make a layup.

[Reality]

Thaddeus was drafted with the Sixers own pick, not one they acquired via trade.
Cook was traded for Jason Smith.  Meh.  Jason's a viable 4th big in the rotation.  I don't see his upside as being more than that.
Koponen was given away because we didn't want another first round salary.
Joe Smith walked in free agency.  We got 2008 cap space for him.

The trade was, and still is, IMO a mistake, mostly because of what they were targeting.  The two first round picks they netted were never going to amount to much, and in the end they turned into one bench player.  They didn't get enough cap space, and instead got a vet to patch into the lineup and make a makeshift contender that can compete for a playoff spot, but not a championship contender.  The trade should have never been made by a GM who needed to win now and keep his job over one who had job security and could have had a long term goal in mind.

That's an ugly return on two 1st round draft pics.  I remember you were also saying move Andre Miller as soon as they got him, could have thus positioned for the Oden sweepstakes or other high picks to build around in addition to dumping Millers salary.

Will be interesting to see if Miami ends up getting back in contention faster then Philly.
Doing what in a sense you wanted the Sixers to do, that being either go for the title (which they did and got) or clean house (Shaq, Ant Walker etc) and rebuild entirely around Igs and Thadeous Young.

[Derek Bodner]

That's an ugly return on two 1st round draft pics

The draft picks were 20 and 30.  The return wasn't the problem, it was the expectations that they'd ever amount to anything.

[ziggy]

That's an ugly return on two 1st round draft pics

The draft picks were 20 and 30.  The return wasn't the problem, it was the expectations that they'd ever amount to anything.

Read an interesting article in Baseball Prospectus about teams that have a star that defines the franchise, and how after that star leaves the franchise quite often bottoms out for a number of years.  They were looking at the Giants and Barry Bonds, and did some other comparisons like the Twins after Kirby, and the Orioles after Cal Jr, plus a number of other franchises.

Their thesis was that teams who have this defining star, believe they can compete for the last few years of the the stars career, and they invariably add questionable veteran contracts around that player to try and make a few last ditch efforts.  The problem comes in that the star doesn't quite have "it" anymore, and they add these questionable veteran contracts that hamstring them for 2-4 years.  The end up with 3 years of 81-81 mediocrity, burn some of their #1 picks as compensation on questionable FA signing, so end up with a depleted farm system, and a higher than necessary payroll for a team that will go nowhere.  After the star leaves they crater (see the present incarnation of the Orioles) for several years.  A couple of teams that tried to open up lots of payroll at the same time as the veteran star was expected to leave, or went ahead and started rebuilding before the star left had much greater success long term.

Baseball obviously is different, as there is no salary cap, no rookie salary scale, no mid-level exemptions, no trade restrictions, no restriction on how much the previous team can pay of the salary after the trade.  The concept though is interesting, and I think it does play out quite often in the NBA.

Not to put words in Derek's mouth, it seems that he is saying that the trade was a mistake, because what they got was so little, but if you are going to start over then do it, don't get distracted by a short term stretch of good play.  The big question for Philly is do they go out and sign a real good FA to a 6 year max or near max deal, burning all of their cap space now, recognizing that Andre Miller just turned 32 and is now clearly looking at the end of his career.  The other option is to structure their payroll so that they can make a better some other deal in a year or two once they have built a deeper roster, and  when Iggy is reaching his peak.

[rickortreat]

Frankly, I think the Sixers got over on Denver big time, because Andre Miller has turned out to be a great point guard.  He is far more suited to what the Sixers need than AI was. In addition Reggie Evans made a big difference for the Sixers at the 4 spot and we got him in the trade as well. 

I am unwilling to give up on Jason Smith yet.  In fact, I think Cheeks is under-using Smith, considering the substandard quality of play they get from Calvin Booth, and Sam. As of yet, Jason isn't being given the opportunity to be a player on the offensive end, so all he gets are garbage buckets.  It seems to me he creates a lot of positives for the team when he is in there since he does work hard.

The reality is that AI is hard to build a team around because he is a 2 in the body of a one. He can play point, but that is a waste of his talents, and he isn't as good at it as a natural point, who thinks pass as well as shoot. As such, he creates a match-up problem since you now need a point who has a 2's body or even bigger, like a Magic, and such players are as rare as AI is.  If you can't find that, you always end up with a match-up problem on defense, since AI is too short to defend a 2 guard and isn't a great one on one defender.

The Sixers had a lot more talent than people realized because AI overshadowed everyone.  That isn't a problem in Denver where they had established stars, but in Phila. Igoudala didn't get enough shots and neither did anyone else. Philly continually failed to build a contender around AI and finally gave up, considering what they got in return, I think they got a great deal.

If Philly had a true point to play with Iverson, they might have turned into a contender with him, but I actually like the team better without him.  I'd rather have Andre Igoudala at the 2 than AI, since he is a better fit at that spot. With Miller at the point they are a better team than AI & AI could have ever been. The Sixers always had a weakness operating in the half court since their players were more oriented towards Iverson breaking down a defense one on one.  Against good teams, that kind of play often gets shut down.  A more balanced attack is harder to stop, and they automatically get that with Miller.

So to sum up, the Sixers are now paying a player a lesser salary and have a better team and additional players.  That has to be considered a great trade.