Ted,
First, I apologize because it seems that I hit and run -- unfortuantely, I just don't have enough time to get to post right now.
Second, let me state that I DO believe that John Stockton is one of the top 5 PG's in the league -- personally, I would put him above Isaiah Thomas (who was also a great point guard) and I would put both Kidd and Stockton above Thomas.
Now for the Kidd vs. Stockton -- as I mentioned, there are a couple of factors that you seem to neglect in this assessement of their skills. I believe that Kidd's court vision is definately as good as Stockton's. I also believe that Stockton had the advantage of playing on a better team. And Kidd STILL hasn't had the opportunity to work with a quality big man (Dirk is a quality but he isn't the frontcourt player that I'm referring to like Malone was) that Stockton did. Stockton was a FAR better shooter -- that is a glaring reality. However, Kidd is one of the best rebounding PG's the league has ever seen -- and that's a HUGE stat when you are playing without a quality big man in the post.
Kidd is also a shut down (well, he was in his prime) defender while Stockton was a good defender, I don't believe he was ever the defender that Kidd was.
Here is a quote from our board:
Now that I think about it, I would take Kidd over Stockton. The defense would be UNREAL, your players will be sooooo locked down on defense they would think their name is Doug Christie.
I certainly am not trying to use Wow as a definitive analysis but one must admit that if someone of Wow's limited basketball knowledge can understand the difference in defensive abilities between Kidd and Stockton, you must at least stop and consider that the difference is far clearer than you would like to admit.
Unfortuantely, the only way to offer proof of defensive abilities is to compare their opponents output against them -- this is something that can be done with Kidd -- I don't know of a way to do that with Stockton since he played in the olden days of minishorts.
Mark Price was a very good point guard -- I think a GREAT comparison would be Steve Nash. He isn't HOF material, IMO, but he was a very good point guard. A top point guard in the league at that time but not a top point guard of all time.
I believe that Kidd is better than Stockton in some areas and Stockton is better than Kidd in some areas.
I'd like to point out some further qualifications to your list:
Minutes per game
Stockton: 32.4
Kidd: 37.7
Kidd plays more minutes--good for him, but remember this number in the context of the following stats and you may not think of this as an advantage for Kidd.
Why is it that Kidd logs so many more minutes than Stockton did -- it's because Kidd has always played on a team that wasn't nearly as good. His presence on the court was more necessary -- I would be interested to see how the Jazz did when Stockton went down as opposed to the difference of Kidd's teams (he has played for more than just the Nets, in case you are wondering) when he went down.
Points per game
Stockton: 13.4
Kidd: 14.3
Kidd shot over 2000 more FG attempts to acheive this 1-point per game advantage.
Stockton is obviously the much better shooter.
Assists per game
Stockton: 11.1
Kidd: 9.3
Stockton averaged more than 10 assists 10 straight years in the 15-year span. Kidd accomplished the feat three times. Stockton averaged more than 14 twice, 13 three times, 12 three times, 11 once. Kidd never surpassed 10.8.
Hmm, I wonder what the overall shooting percentage was for the Jazz compared to that of Kidd's teams. I would bet that the shooting percentage of the Jazz is also far superior to Kidd's teams which means he would have even had more assists if his teammates could shoot better. Also, you don't think that playing with a HOF and superior player like Malone made a difference in the assists? I would also state that Sloans system is also a system that made the most out of Stockton's passing ability. Wouldn't you?
Steals per game
Stockton: 2.3
Kidd: 2.0
Pretty close here, but a little context. Stockton got over 230 steals four times, 200 five times, 199 twice. Kidd never surpassed 175.
One of the things that is easy to do -- cheat on steals when you have a big man behind you to eliminate mistakes. Kobe loved to cheat when he played with Shaq -- Shaq corrected Kobe's mistakes by defending the paint.
Turnovers per game
Stockton: 3.0
Kidd: 3.2
Pretty close here. But overall assist-to-turnover ratio is more revealing.
Assist-to-turnover ratio
Stockton: 3.8
Kidd: 2.9
Advantage Stockton.
Rebounds per game
Stockton: 2.7
Kidd: 6.7
Kidd is clearly better here, no question. Of course, it's easier to rebound when you miss so much.
Well, Stockton didn't have to worry about rebounding -- he had a great rebounder in Malone. Kidd has never had that option. And if you think the 4 rebounds a game all came off of his own shot you are trying to use weak facts to support your argument.
Field goal percentage
Stockton: 51.9
Kidd: 40.1
Kidd is atrocious here; 40.1 percent is just plain awful.
Who did defenses focus on when they played the Jazz? Malone was their first focus -- stopping the pick and roll and then their next focus was Stockton. One has to take into account the ability of these players teammates and their coaches when looking at this difference. Stockton was a superior shooter but I would bet that if Kidd was transplanted to the Jazz with Malone, Hornicek and company that his shooting percentage would have been much better.
3-point percentage
Stockton: 38.4
Kidd: 33.6
Stockton became known as a feared long-range shooter. Kidd has become known as a below average at best.
See previous statement. Kidd is the focus of defenses -- it does make a difference.
Free throw percentage
Stockton: 82.3
Kidd: 78.0
Not a huge difference here, but another advantage to Stockton.
See, I believe this demonstrates Kidd's ability to shoot the ball -- Stockton is better but not by that much. If Kidd had a post player that defenses had to focus on, you would see Kidd shooting a much better percentage from the floor and the arch.
