Author Topic: Chris Webber retiring.  (Read 4371 times)

Offline Skandery

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 11:49:02 PM »
Quote
I threw in Nique being in all-star cuz that is really the only thing I can think of that he did that was worth mentioning.

You know in the past two years how Kobe has had just some ridiculous displays of offensive talent where he is making stupidly hard shots every time down the court.  Except his team was still fundamentally flawed and was a borderline playoff team and first round fodder.  That's what Dominique Wilkins was, only stretched from two years to a decade.  See,  Dominique never had a coach like Jackson or a big man like Shaq.  He was on a fundamentally flawed Atlanta team that no matter how ridiculous Dominique Wilkins was (the guy could drop 50 points on dunks and double-pump, half-jump fake, one handed horse shots that you would only ever see once in a lifetime), the Hawks were STILL going to lose to Boston and Philadelphia come playoff time.

Ted commented a couple of days back about the scary freakishness of Shawn Kemp in his prime.  Going back and seeing vintage Dominique "The Human Highlight Film" circa 1986 is just as impressive and just as scary.  The man was incredible.  Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzUzAlOnCLE

So basically if Kobe has an entire career of what he accomplished in Season 05-06 and 06-07, I STILL call him a HOFer and that goes for Dominique as well.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2008, 12:02:13 AM »
He got to one finals and happened to hit Shaq and Kobe (Webber did not hit a finals).  I mean cut him some slack it was Rik Smits vs Shaq and Reggie vs Kobe.  If Kobe didn't seal the deal when Shaq hit the bench in game 5 (I believe) it might have been a much closer series.  If I remember correctly Miller also won a game for them in the finals as well.  Not to mention he was in his prime during the Bulls run.  That HAS to be noted.

Webber hit Kobe and Shaq are few more times than Miller.  Not to mention the one year the Kings should have won Webber went down with an injury vs the Mavs.

Could he create his own shot? Yes.  How do you figure he couldn't?  He was actually a decent slasher and could get to the rim regardless of how rail thin he was.  I think maybe you need to hit youtube and look up Reggie Miller.  The Knicks use to pound him in the paint when he would get to the rim.

Reggie was 90% catch and shoot.  Using 3 screen to get an open look does NOT equate to creating your own shot.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2008, 12:06:59 AM »
So basically if Kobe has an entire career of what he accomplished in Season 05-06 and 06-07, I STILL call him a HOFer and that goes for Dominique as well.

I was a much bigger Nique fan than an MJ fan back in the day and even to a Nique fan your comments are ridiculous.  Nique was terrific but he didn't have the dribbling or shooting ability of Kobe, not even close, and lets not get started about defense.  Nique is comporable to Vince Carter NOT Kobe.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 08:53:15 AM »
Quote
I threw in Nique being in all-star cuz that is really the only thing I can think of that he did that was worth mentioning.

You know in the past two years how Kobe has had just some ridiculous displays of offensive talent where he is making stupidly hard shots every time down the court.  Except his team was still fundamentally flawed and was a borderline playoff team and first round fodder.  That's what Dominique Wilkins was, only stretched from two years to a decade.  See,  Dominique never had a coach like Jackson or a big man like Shaq.  He was on a fundamentally flawed Atlanta team that no matter how ridiculous Dominique Wilkins was (the guy could drop 50 points on dunks and double-pump, half-jump fake, one handed horse shots that you would only ever see once in a lifetime), the Hawks were STILL going to lose to Boston and Philadelphia come playoff time.

Ted commented a couple of days back about the scary freakishness of Shawn Kemp in his prime.  Going back and seeing vintage Dominique "The Human Highlight Film" circa 1986 is just as impressive and just as scary.  The man was incredible.  Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzUzAlOnCLE

So basically if Kobe has an entire career of what he accomplished in Season 05-06 and 06-07, I STILL call him a HOFer and that goes for Dominique as well.

Point taken.  Good argument.  Never was a Nique fan and never really paid attention to him outside of his visits to teams who got national tv time or when they played the Lakers to be honest.

WOW...Reggie Miller could create his own shot.  This is not even debatable.  It was more then just sitting behind screens.  Certainly it was not 90% of the time.  Michael Redd and Reggie Miller have similar games.  Would you say Michael Redd cannot create his own shot because he spends a chunk of time knocking down long distance shots? No. 
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 09:01:01 AM »
Point taken.  Good argument.  Never was a Nique fan and never really paid attention to him outside of his visits to teams who got national tv time or when they played the Lakers to be honest.

WOW...Reggie Miller could create his own shot.  This is not even debatable.  It was more then just sitting behind screens.  Certainly it was not 90% of the time.  Michael Redd and Reggie Miller have similar games.  Would you say Michael Redd cannot create his own shot because he spends a chunk of time knocking down long distance shots? No. 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.  Reggie Miller was mostly catch and shot.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 09:05:54 AM »
Point taken.  Good argument.  Never was a Nique fan and never really paid attention to him outside of his visits to teams who got national tv time or when they played the Lakers to be honest.

WOW...Reggie Miller could create his own shot.  This is not even debatable.  It was more then just sitting behind screens.  Certainly it was not 90% of the time.  Michael Redd and Reggie Miller have similar games.  Would you say Michael Redd cannot create his own shot because he spends a chunk of time knocking down long distance shots? No. 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.  Reggie Miller was mostly catch and shot.

Mostly catch and shoot, i'd agree.  90% seems a little drastic but I would agree with ''mostly"  That doesn't mean he couldn't create his own shot though.  Michael Redd is mainly a catch and shoot guy as well but he can get to the rim.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 09:19:31 AM »
I only saw Webber at the tail end of his career when he came to Philly, and he was a complete disapointment from the first game.  It may simply have been that the injury should have been the end, but if teams were willing to pay him, why not?

As fas as being a HOF'er, I'd say no. There was nothing special about Webber, he was just another 6'10" PF that never won a Championship.  There was nothing dazzling about his game or his personality that made people want to cheer for him.  Say what you want about Mullins, his fans loved him.  Dominique, had moves that blew everyone away. He deserved to be in the HOF for his ability to play above the rim like he did. Miller was an all-time clutch shooter, one of the best percentage shooters to ever play the game.

What did Webber do that was so exceptional or noteworthy?  As I see it, he was a very gifted young man who got a lot of breaks because of his talent.  He wasn't particularly smart or innovative, he didn't appear to work on his game much at all, and only experinced success when he was with an offensive genius in Rick Adelman.

Maybe I'm being harsh because he stole money from the league for the past 3 years, but I'm a fan of the game, and he was on my team.  He had a chance to make an impression and he did, but it wasn't one that motivates me to call him a HOF'er.

Offline JoMal

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 11:43:12 AM »
Point taken.  Good argument.  Never was a Nique fan and never really paid attention to him outside of his visits to teams who got national tv time or when they played the Lakers to be honest.

WOW...Reggie Miller could create his own shot.  This is not even debatable.  It was more then just sitting behind screens.  Certainly it was not 90% of the time.  Michael Redd and Reggie Miller have similar games.  Would you say Michael Redd cannot create his own shot because he spends a chunk of time knocking down long distance shots? No. 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.  Reggie Miller was mostly catch and shot.

Uh, uh, westkoast is right, Miller was much more then just catch and shoot. He often had to create his own shot, but his clutch shooting is why he got recognition. He is also one of only five players to shoot 50% from the field for an entire season, while hitting over 40% from three point range, and 90% from the free throw line. The others are Bird, Nowitzki, Steve Nash and Mark Price. 
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2008, 12:11:50 PM »
I only saw Webber at the tail end of his career when he came to Philly, and he was a complete disapointment from the first game.  It may simply have been that the injury should have been the end, but if teams were willing to pay him, why not?

As fas as being a HOF'er, I'd say no. There was nothing special about Webber, he was just another 6'10" PF that never won a Championship.  There was nothing dazzling about his game or his personality that made people want to cheer for him.  Say what you want about Mullins, his fans loved him.  Dominique, had moves that blew everyone away. He deserved to be in the HOF for his ability to play above the rim like he did. Miller was an all-time clutch shooter, one of the best percentage shooters to ever play the game.

What did Webber do that was so exceptional or noteworthy?  As I see it, he was a very gifted young man who got a lot of breaks because of his talent.  He wasn't particularly smart or innovative, he didn't appear to work on his game much at all, and only experinced success when he was with an offensive genius in Rick Adelman.

Maybe I'm being harsh because he stole money from the league for the past 3 years, but I'm a fan of the game, and he was on my team.  He had a chance to make an impression and he did, but it wasn't one that motivates me to call him a HOF'er.

WOW, are you completely off your nut on this one, Rick. To say that Webber never worked on his game, or was not innovative? Apparently you are NOT much of a fan of the game, because your impression of Chris Webber is so wrong as to be like it comes from Uranus, <so to speak>. Webber was nothing BUT about the game. Sure, he made mistakes, but if anyone learned from them more fully then Chris Webber did, I would like to know who.

This is what Webber did, and let me lead in by saying this is what he did AFTER he was injured. He had signed a seven year deal for $120 million. After three years under that deal, he blew his knee out in what turned out to be the worse type of knee injury and surgery a basketball player could go through. The type that destroyed the careers of others, like Houston in New York.

While still with Sacramento, Webber worked as hard as humanly possible to get back on the court. After ten months of rehab work, he made it back and in his first game had a double-double. It soon was apparent that the smooth lateral movements he once displayed nightly were gone forever, however, so he was forced to compensate. He just was physically unable to keep up. So he went back to his off-court workouts and daily tried to regain that flexibility. The work he put his body through during this time was so rigorous that other Kings' players who tried to keep him company all failed to keep up with this workout and quit. This work he put in should alone be recognized as HOF background for him. In other words, no one understood that he was not earning his money as he once was more then Chris Webber did, and he did everything in his power to overcome it. He, unfortunately, could not, and this would have eaten away at him, from what I saw of him here in Sacramento.   


Prior to being hurt, Webber, with the help of Divac, turned the Kings from a lottery team into a winning franchise and let me tell you, there is no way in hell the Kings would have been anywhere near as successful if Webber was not on that team. He was the difference.

The comparison with Ewing is not worthy. Ewing was a thug and a clod who couldn't find his shoes, let alone tie them, without someone pointing out where they were. Webber is probably one of the smartest guys ever to play in the NBA. His hobby, off court, is collecting historical artifacts of African-American heritage. He has done much to save this valuable collections of books and memorabilia, and once put his collection on display at the Crocker Art Museum here in Sacramento. His problems with some couches, such at the one he had in Philly (O'Brien??) was that these coaches tened to ignore the simple fact that, beyond the typical PF skills Chris had in scoring and rebounding, these coaches never understood how affective Webber could be if the offense ran through him, because his passing ability was his best skill of all. Why on earth would you not incorporate that aspect of his game into the offense? Rick Adelman took one look at how good a passer Chris was and completely changed his offense to one that went through either Divac or Webber - they were equals in the passing game.   

If Webber had issues with coaches, it was only about how he should be used on the court. He feuded with Nelson in Golden State because of this, because Nelson wanted Chris to play like the standard PF you saw around the League back then. Nelson, as good a coach as he was, failed to see in Webber that he had a unique talent in a 6'10" kid and one who would voice his dislike of the way he was being used because Webber felt he could do more if allowed. THAT was one thing Webber never could tolerate and never let go without commenting on, giving him a reputation as a distruptive, negative guy in the lockeroom. Why this never came up in Sacramento was because Adelman say the skills and totally bought into how Webber saw the game should be played by him, and Webber proved to be totally correct up to his injury.

That Webber chose to retire after only a nine game comeback with Golden State is an indication that he would rather not play the game if he would hurt the team by doing so.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2008, 12:18:30 PM »
Point taken.  Good argument.  Never was a Nique fan and never really paid attention to him outside of his visits to teams who got national tv time or when they played the Lakers to be honest.

WOW...Reggie Miller could create his own shot.  This is not even debatable.  It was more then just sitting behind screens.  Certainly it was not 90% of the time.  Michael Redd and Reggie Miller have similar games.  Would you say Michael Redd cannot create his own shot because he spends a chunk of time knocking down long distance shots? No. 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.  Reggie Miller was mostly catch and shot.

Uh, uh, westkoast is right, Miller was much more then just catch and shoot. He often had to create his own shot, but his clutch shooting is why he got recognition. He is also one of only five players to shoot 50% from the field for an entire season, while hitting over 40% from three point range, and 90% from the free throw line. The others are Bird, Nowitzki, Steve Nash and Mark Price. 

I watched Miller since his UCLA days and I was pissed the Clippers ended up with the other Miller.  90% catch and shoot, with a +/- error of 3%, is what I saw from Reggie.  Maybe he could create is own shot but he didn't do it on the court on a regular basis.  Same goes for Ray Allen, B. Scott and a few others who "could" but "didn't".

Maybe you're thinking of Renaldo Miller who played in the ABA.  That Miller was and awesome scoring machine, when your life is literaly on the line in the Astec Basketball Association, you learn to be a versatile scorer.  Too bad the Spaniards disbanded the league when they took over for ABA Commisioner David Montezuma.
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Offline Ted

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2008, 02:22:25 PM »
I watched Miller since his UCLA days and I was pissed the Clippers ended up with the other Miller.  90% catch and shoot, with a +/- error of 3%, is what I saw from Reggie.  Maybe he could create is own shot but he didn't do it on the court on a regular basis.  Same goes for Ray Allen, B. Scott and a few others who "could" but "didn't".

Maybe you're thinking of Renaldo Miller who played in the ABA.  That Miller was and awesome scoring machine, when your life is literaly on the line in the Astec Basketball Association, you learn to be a versatile scorer.  Too bad the Spaniards disbanded the league when they took over for ABA Commisioner David Montezuma.

I agree with WoW. Miller was mostly catch and shoot, and it's not even close to 50-50. If he did go to the basket, it was off a head fake on the poor sap trying to get through three screens to catch up to him.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2008, 02:46:10 PM »
I watched Miller since his UCLA days and I was pissed the Clippers ended up with the other Miller.  90% catch and shoot, with a +/- error of 3%, is what I saw from Reggie.  Maybe he could create is own shot but he didn't do it on the court on a regular basis.  Same goes for Ray Allen, B. Scott and a few others who "could" but "didn't".

Maybe you're thinking of Renaldo Miller who played in the ABA.  That Miller was and awesome scoring machine, when your life is literaly on the line in the Astec Basketball Association, you learn to be a versatile scorer.  Too bad the Spaniards disbanded the league when they took over for ABA Commisioner David Montezuma.

I agree with WoW. Miller was mostly catch and shoot, and it's not even close to 50-50. If he did go to the basket, it was off a head fake on the poor sap trying to get through three screens to catch up to him.

We all agreed he mainly was catch and shoot but that still doesn't mean he couldn't create his own shot.  Giving a player a head fake to get open is creating your own shot LOL


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http://youtube.com/watch?v=463f9vIeO6E&feature=related  <--this video is mainly jump shots but clearly shows he can create his own shot and get to the rim

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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2008, 03:47:26 PM »
"That Webber chose to retire after only a nine game comeback with Golden State is an indication that he would rather not play the game if he would hurt the team by doing so."

Sorry JoMal, but regardless of how hard he worked to recover from his knee injury, he NEVER came back.  He stole money from the Sixers because he really couldn't play.  Coaching was a problem, and the decision to bring him in was a mistake.  The Sixers were looking for a guy who could give them 20 and 10 and Webber couldn't do that anymore.  Even if they ran the offense through him, they didn't have the shooters around him to make that type of game work.

He was a stiff after the injury and milked a couple of more years out of his career in Philly and Detroit, who quickly realized that he was done on arrival.

This is not a HOF player.  He didn't win anything on any level.  Fans of his in Sactown and Michigan are the only people who would really think Chris deserved to be in the hall of fame. Which is really the point - a hall of famer should be someone that people around the country talked about as being the best or a really exceptional player in some way.  What was distinguishing about Chris?  The biggest thing I remember is his bone-headed play in the NCAA's.  That pretty much tells me that he's not a HOF candidate.  If he were, he would have made a bit more noise in the NBA.


Offline jn

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2008, 04:18:01 PM »
I'm most definitely not a Michigan fan but you are definitely selling Webber short in terms of his college impact.  The young Chris Webber was a MAN out there.  The Fab Five tend to receive most of their accolades these days in terms of their impact in terms of style.  Baggy shorts, hip hop, trash talking, etc.  What is now overlooked is they made it to the Final Four as freshman and sophomores and they did it because Chris Webber was such a force.   There was plenty of other talent on that team but make no mistake, Webber was the key.  Jalen Rose and company talked big but it was Webber who allowed them to do it and not get embarrassed.  Also, he was the number #1 pick as a sophomore, paving the way for the flood of early departures we see now.

If you want to keep him out of the HOF in because of the lack of NBA Finals appearances that's one thing.   Shortchaning his overall impact is another.  Also, keep in mind who his Mich teams lost to.  North Carolina and Duke teams loaded with upperclassmen bound for the NBA.  It was an amazing feat just to get there.
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Offline JoMal

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Re: Chris Webber retiring.
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2008, 05:56:54 PM »

This is not a HOF player.  He didn't win anything on any level.  Fans of his in Sactown and Michigan are the only people who would really think Chris deserved to be in the hall of fame. Which is really the point - a hall of famer should be someone that people around the country talked about as being the best or a really exceptional player in some way.  What was distinguishing about Chris?  The biggest thing I remember is his bone-headed play in the NCAA's.  That pretty much tells me that he's not a HOF candidate.  If he were, he would have made a bit more noise in the NBA.

Read the first post I had in this thread. I said I did not believe Webber belonged in the HOF, so that kind of negates the rest of this, doesn't it?

And while the time out call he made while at Michigan was dead wrong, I only can hope that at my advanced age, I am not judged by the mistakes I made when I was twenty. or we can all agree there is no hope for westkoast to get better ever.
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