Is Houston really worse without Yao?

[JoMal]

Actually it was the Free Throw line that stopped the Mighty Mighty Kings.  Don't give the Lakers credit for that.

Agreed.  Not even an all-time defensive team of Russell, Duncan, Pippen, Jordan and Payton could play defense as well as the lock down D that the HOME COURT rim and free throw line did on the Kings.

That last game never counted. The series was won in six.

[ziggy]

Houston would have moved past New Orleans, Denver, Golden State, Phoenix and Dallas at least this year.  They were easily on par with Jazz, Lakers and Spurs, before Yao's injury.  The notion that they would go just as far if not farther with Mutombo at center as opposed to Yao at center is absurd.

Would the Jazz make the conference semi's without Boozer?
Would the Lakers make the conference semi's without Kobe?
Would SA make the conference semi's without Duncan?
Would NO make the conference semi's without Paul?
Would Denver make the conference semi's without Anthony, Iverson or Camby?
Would GS make the conference semi's without Davis?
Would the Suns make the conference semi's without Nash?
Would Dallas make the conference semi's without Dirk?

lol -- sorry, I don't buy that the Rockets were on the same level as the Lakers, Spurs and Jazz.  I never said that the Rockets would make it to the conference semi's without Yao -- I don't think they would make the conference semi's WITH Yao.  Personally, I think they can go as far without him as they would with him -- and that's a first round bounce unless they get lucky and play a bad team or a team with injuries.  And I wasn't talking about replacing Yao with Mutombo -- perhaps you could go back and read my post and see what I was actually referring to trading for Yao.

I'm pretty amazed at your Yao comparisons:  Yao = Kobe?  Yao = Duncan?  Yao isn't a superstar -- and while he may be on the same level as some of the players you mentioned, he certainly isn't the same as others you mentioned.

How about this question:  How well would the prospective teams do without the particular star in regular games against playoff opponents?
   Would the Jazz win without Boozer?
   Would the Lakers win without Kobe?
   Would SA win without Duncan?
   Would NO win without Paul?
   Would Denver win without Anthony, Iverson or Camby?
   Would GS win without Davis?
   Would the Suns win without Nash?
   Would Dallas win without Dirk?
   Would Houston win without Yao?

I understand that you didn't say the Rockets would make the conference semi's with Yao, didn't say you did.  I said that.  I believe the Rockets would have been one of the 4 teams to make the conference semi's  if Yao had not got hurt.  Right now Houston has the 4th best record in the West.  I don't see where it is a stretch to assume that the team with the 4th best record in the West today will continue to be the 4th best team in the west.

The reason I chose the players I did was because Yao was an ALL-STAR, and with the exception of Baron Davis all of the other players were ALL-STARS, and I added in Camby because he should have been an ALL-STAR.  GS didn't have an all-star, and Davis is their best player.  Superstar is a subjective opinion.  All-Star is an objective fact.

[rickortreat]

It seems so far that Houston is playing as well without Yao as they were with him.  I think the Rockets are more effective offensively, and Dikembe gives them the defensive presence and rebounding they got from Yao.

It would have been one thing if they just won one or two games, but they beat Denver, when the Nuggets are in danger of missing the playoffs.  TMac looks great and Battier, Alston and Scola are putting up good numbers.

Over the long run, against the better teams they may have a problem, you could go to Yao in the post, you can't do that with Dikembe. But Deke can do a lot of things that can cause other teams problems including the Lakers and Spurs.

Don't count them out, they haven't lost a game since loosing Yao. That in itself says a lot about the Rockets.  Like with every other team in the West, we won't really know anything until the end of March.

[Lurker]

The Rockets have been winning with defense.  And I would say that Deke (now) & Yao are defensive equals.  They are in the top 5 of most defensive categories.  Yao changes their offense but doesn't kill it.  What he gave the Rockets was 2 different scorers.  With Yao out the Rockets will depend too much on TMac and he can't be consistant enough to win 4 games against the top teams.

[Randy]

Houston would have moved past New Orleans, Denver, Golden State, Phoenix and Dallas at least this year.  They were easily on par with Jazz, Lakers and Spurs, before Yao's injury.  The notion that they would go just as far if not farther with Mutombo at center as opposed to Yao at center is absurd.

Would the Jazz make the conference semi's without Boozer?
Would the Lakers make the conference semi's without Kobe?
Would SA make the conference semi's without Duncan?
Would NO make the conference semi's without Paul?
Would Denver make the conference semi's without Anthony, Iverson or Camby?
Would GS make the conference semi's without Davis?
Would the Suns make the conference semi's without Nash?
Would Dallas make the conference semi's without Dirk?

lol -- sorry, I don't buy that the Rockets were on the same level as the Lakers, Spurs and Jazz.  I never said that the Rockets would make it to the conference semi's without Yao -- I don't think they would make the conference semi's WITH Yao.  Personally, I think they can go as far without him as they would with him -- and that's a first round bounce unless they get lucky and play a bad team or a team with injuries.  And I wasn't talking about replacing Yao with Mutombo -- perhaps you could go back and read my post and see what I was actually referring to trading for Yao.

I'm pretty amazed at your Yao comparisons:  Yao = Kobe?  Yao = Duncan?  Yao isn't a superstar -- and while he may be on the same level as some of the players you mentioned, he certainly isn't the same as others you mentioned.

How about this question:  How well would the prospective teams do without the particular star in regular games against playoff opponents?
   Would the Jazz win without Boozer?
   Would the Lakers win without Kobe?
   Would SA win without Duncan?
   Would NO win without Paul?
   Would Denver win without Anthony, Iverson or Camby?
   Would GS win without Davis?
   Would the Suns win without Nash?
   Would Dallas win without Dirk?
   Would Houston win without Yao?

I understand that you didn't say the Rockets would make the conference semi's with Yao, didn't say you did.  I said that.  I believe the Rockets would have been one of the 4 teams to make the conference semi's  if Yao had not got hurt.  Right now Houston has the 4th best record in the West.  I don't see where it is a stretch to assume that the team with the 4th best record in the West today will continue to be the 4th best team in the west.

The reason I chose the players I did was because Yao was an ALL-STAR, and with the exception of Baron Davis all of the other players were ALL-STARS, and I added in Camby because he should have been an ALL-STAR.  GS didn't have an all-star, and Davis is their best player.  Superstar is a subjective opinion.  All-Star is an objective fact.

All-Star is an objective fact.

I can't agree with this at all -- since the starting squad is based on voting, 1.3 billion chinese don't make it an objective fact, IMO.  I wouldn't say that Yao or TMac are superstars -- I think Yao is tremendously overrated and I don't think he fits well in with TMac. 

I wouldn't say that being a starting All-Star proves anything -- remember when Magic was voted to the All-Star team when he hardly played the year?  He certainly wasn't the best that year.  I think most of the time, the All-Star voting is right on but not all the time.

[ziggy]

All-Star is an objective fact.

I can't agree with this at all

Randy I will go slow.  Go to NBA.com and look at the all-star rosters.  That is a list of players who played in the all star game.  Now I will go even s l o w e r for you.  That is what is defined as an objective fact.

From Webster's Dictionary
Objective  -  b: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers
3 a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Fact  -  1: a thing done: 3: the quality of being actual 4 a: something that has actual existence b: an actual occurrence 5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality ? in fact: in truth

So in short an objective fact is
relating to the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers as a thing done, or the quality of being actual, or an actual occurrence.

So Yao played in the all-star game as did all of the others I mentioned except Camby and Davis, who I addressed in my post above.  That is according to Websters is an OBJECTIVE FACT.

So in short I made a comparison between Yao, who is the only All-Star on the Rockets to the other All-Stars on the other teams.  The fact that millions of Chinese voted for Yao, doesn't change the fact that he played in the all-star game, and also deserved to play in the all-star game, and your lesser opinion of Yao does not change that reality one iota.

[Randy]

All-Star is an objective fact.

I can't agree with this at all

Randy I will go slow.  Go to NBA.com and look at the all-star rosters.  That is a list of players who played in the all star game.  Now I will go even s l o w e r for you.  That is what is defined as an objective fact.

From Webster's Dictionary
Objective  -  b: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers
3 a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Fact  -  1: a thing done: 3: the quality of being actual 4 a: something that has actual existence b: an actual occurrence 5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality ? in fact: in truth

So in short an objective fact is
relating to the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers as a thing done, or the quality of being actual, or an actual occurrence.

So Yao played in the all-star game as did all of the others I mentioned except Camby and Davis, who I addressed in my post above.  That is according to Websters is an OBJECTIVE FACT.

So in short I made a comparison between Yao, who is the only All-Star on the Rockets to the other All-Stars on the other teams.  The fact that millions of Chinese voted for Yao, doesn't change the fact that he played in the all-star game, and also deserved to play in the all-star game, and your lesser opinion of Yao does not change that reality one iota.

I have no problem with you stating that he is an all-star -- just expecting that it really is an objective statement to prove someone's abilities on the court when that person represents 1.3 billion people in a country with few other players.  I typed that slowly as well -- hopefully it will help your understanding.

[Lurker]

I have no problem with you stating that he is an all-star -- just expecting that it really is an objective statement to prove someone's abilities on the court when that person represents 1.3 billion people in a country with few other players.  I typed that slowly as well -- hopefully it will help your understanding.

Did I miss the announcement that Yao received 1.3 billion votes?  Maybe they got him confused with LeBron James who led all vote getters with just over 2.5 million.

Randy you are being very close-minded on this.  It is the same frame of reference you bring to any discussion regarding the Spurs.  You feel that YOU KNOW what the right answer is and everyone else is just clueless.  And your arguments don't hold up under scrutiny.

[ziggy]

All-Star is an objective fact.

I can't agree with this at all

Randy I will go slow.  Go to NBA.com and look at the all-star rosters.  That is a list of players who played in the all star game.  Now I will go even s l o w e r for you.  That is what is defined as an objective fact.

From Webster's Dictionary
Objective  -  b: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers
3 a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Fact  -  1: a thing done: 3: the quality of being actual 4 a: something that has actual existence b: an actual occurrence 5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality ? in fact: in truth

So in short an objective fact is
relating to the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers as a thing done, or the quality of being actual, or an actual occurrence.

So Yao played in the all-star game as did all of the others I mentioned except Camby and Davis, who I addressed in my post above.  That is according to Websters is an OBJECTIVE FACT.

So in short I made a comparison between Yao, who is the only All-Star on the Rockets to the other All-Stars on the other teams.  The fact that millions of Chinese voted for Yao, doesn't change the fact that he played in the all-star game, and also deserved to play in the all-star game, and your lesser opinion of Yao does not change that reality one iota.

I have no problem with you stating that he is an all-star -- just expecting that it really is an objective statement to prove someone's abilities on the court when that person represents 1.3 billion people in a country with few other players.  I typed that slowly as well -- hopefully it will help your understanding.

Au contraire my dear Randall, you made the statement that "you cannot agree that" All-Star is an objective fact.  I will make both arguments again for you, Okee Dokee.

You stated
1.)  Yao is not a superstar
2.)  Yao is overrated
3.)  Yao and McGrady don't work well together
4.)  Houston will be better with Yao out

I stated
1.)  Houston has the 4th best record in the West, with Yao, and I would expect that they would continue to be one of the 4 best Western teams if Yao was healthy
2.)  Houston has had good success with Yao and McGrady playing together
3.)  Houston will not be as successful without Yao as they will with Yao

and most importantly
4.)  The impact of the loss of Yao on the Rockets will be comparable to the impact of the loss of other teams ALL-STARS, for instance
Boozer and the Jazz
Anthony or Iverson and the Nuggets
Kobe and the Lakers
Duncan and the Spurs
Nash and Amare and the Suns
Paul and the Hornets
Baron Davis and the Warriors
Dirk and the Mavericks

That is my point, which you have not addressed, instead you focused on whether or not Yao was a superstar, and that all-star was not an objective fact.

[Randy]

You stated
1.)  Yao is not a superstar
2.)  Yao is overrated
3.)  Yao and McGrady don't work well together
4.)  Houston will be better with Yao out

I stated
1.)  Houston has the 4th best record in the West, with Yao, and I would expect that they would continue to be one of the 4 best Western teams if Yao was healthy
2.)  Houston has had good success with Yao and McGrady playing together
3.)  Houston will not be as successful without Yao as they will with Yao

and most importantly
4.)  The impact of the loss of Yao on the Rockets will be comparable to the impact of the loss of other teams ALL-STARS, for instance
Boozer and the Jazz
Anthony or Iverson and the Nuggets
Kobe and the Lakers
Duncan and the Spurs
Nash and Amare and the Suns
Paul and the Hornets
Baron Davis and the Warriors
Dirk and the Mavericks

I'm glad you reposted my thoughts -- it was a great opportunity for me to reread them and say "yes, yes, yes, yes" (was that your purpose?). 

1.  Is Houston #4 -- yes -- although I believe in the playoff bracket, they would come in at #6 -- but recordwise they are #4 in the West.
2.  If you call "success" being one and done in the playoffs, congrats you are correct again -- I guess I have a little higher expectations of success (but I'm a Lakers fan -- our expectations are higher than those of most fans in the league).
3.  I guess we will see, won't we?  At this point, your statement (as well as mine) is subjective -- we will see who is correct.  At this point, they are 3-0 without Yao including a pretty convincing whoopin' on Denver but stronger tests will come in the future.  I never saw them beating SA, or a healthy LA team even with Yao but it would be sufficient to see how they fair against the Mavs, Suns, Jazz, etc. now -- we'll allow that to be the test, agreed?
4.  So are all All-Stars equal?  Kobe = Yao because they are All-Stars?  Sorry, can't agree with you on that.  I can tell you that the real test is how Houston does against playoff teams in the West -- if they manage to beat those playoff teams without Yao is your fourth point correct or incorrect?

[westkoast]

Is Yao an all-star?  No doubt.

Is Yao a very important part of the Rockets? Without a question.

Is Yao as good as the NBA has hyped him to be?  Nope.

[ziggy]

You stated


and most importantly
4.)  The impact of the loss of Yao on the Rockets will be comparable to the impact of the loss of other teams ALL-STARS, for instance
Boozer and the Jazz
Anthony or Iverson and the Nuggets
Kobe and the Lakers
Duncan and the Spurs
Nash and Amare and the Suns
Paul and the Hornets
Baron Davis and the Warriors
Dirk and the Mavericks

4.  So are all All-Stars equal?  Kobe = Yao because they are All-Stars?  Sorry, can't agree with you on that.  I can tell you that the real test is how Houston does against playoff teams in the West -- if they manage to beat those playoff teams without Yao is your fourth point correct or incorrect?

Ok Randall here we go again s l o w l y.  Please read the two highlighted passages, I made them large type so as not to confuse you.  If you note, you did what you always do.  You took what I said and you changed it to what you want to argue.  You will also note that I paraphrased you exactly, by your own words.  I would appreciate if some day, any day, you could do the same thing.

So please respond to my question.  Will the impact of the loss of Yao be comparable to the loss of other all-stars, on other teams?

[Reality]

Ok Randall here we go again s l o w l y.  Please read the two highlighted passages, I made them large type so as not to confuse you.  If you note, you did what you always do.  You took what I said and you changed it to what you want to argue.  You will also note that I paraphrased you exactly, by your own words.  I would appreciate if some day, any day, you could do the same thing.

Grab a Snickers bar ziggy.

[WayOutWest]

Is Yao as good as the NBA has hyped him to be?  Nope.

That is the perfect exclamation point for one of the stupidest premises for a thread in a long time (All Reality threads excluded of course).

[Randy]

I did answer the question -- as clearly as I possibly could -- I say that the Rockets will be as good WITHOUT Yao as they were with him -- you say otherwise.  Who is wrong?  At this point, it's hard to believe you are right since the Rockets are winning convincingly and are 4-0 without Yao. 

So, ONE more time -- hopefully clear enough for even you to understand:

Will the impact of the loss of Yao be comparable to the loss of other all-stars, on other teams?

No, Yao's loss will not hurt the Rockets like it would hurt ANY of the other players missing from their respective teams.  The Rockets are STILL one and done in the playoffs with or without Yao but they continue to win like they were winning this year during the regular season.

Is that clear enough for you?