Manu pulls off Shaq/Hakeem like feat...

[JoMal]

Lurker -

Note to (your)self -

After this thread, Manu could reinvent the dunk and make Dwight Howard look like Super Chicken and I would consider him a bum. And here I was before, thinking what a great offensive feat he had just accomplished.

Something is stinking up your keyboard.

[Lurker]

Not bad for a tier 3 player...

Maybe some day Kobe and LeBron can be like Manu.

Hmm, you weren't saying that Manu wasn't as good as Kobe?  Hmm, that definately sounds like 1) a lot of sour grapes at first and 2) a jab at Kobe and LeBron.

Manu had a great run during that time -- definately not bad for a 3rd tier player -- I will give him that!

Sour grapes?  I wouldn't call it that.  I have made it clear that I don't agree with his classification as tier 3.  Bringing it up in this thread IMO parallels bring up "Suns playoff collusion" over and over again.  However if I had known that poking at the sacred cow of Lakerfandom was verboten I may have resisted.  But probably not.

So I'll ask you the same question...if I had used Wade & Iverson would any of the Laker fans gotten as worked up?

Lurker, I believe down deep that you know that Kobe is one of the best in the game (I know you probably can't bring yourself to say he is the best) but I think I can safely say that you DO think that "Kobe sucks."  It's okay -- you probably wouldn't like him even if he wasn't in purple and gold (unless he went to the Spurs) but since he IS in purple and gold -- you can't stand him.  We both know that the Spurs would trade Manu for Kobe in a heartbeat -- the Lakers would never trade Kobe for Manu.  I believe you are objective to admit that.  Manu had a great run -- props to him and the Spurs for that. 

Actually no I don't think Kobe sucks.  In fact I consider him the best perimeter player in the game today with LBJ closing in fast...which is why I used those two names in the opening post.  Here is another way to look at it...

If Bynum accomplishes something that only Shaq & Kareem did and someone posted that Bynum pulled off this feat.  Then they say "Maybe Duncan and Garnett can be like Andrew".  Would you read that to say that TD & KG were being called lesser players than Bynum?

I get it all -- it was a good bait -- and it's fun to spar.  You love Manu -- I get it -- but admit it -- you overrate any player in a Spurs uniform -- there are players that played for the Spurs that you think belong in the hall-of-fame -- simply because they wore a Spurs uniform.  I get it -- your glasses are tinted pretty bad and it keeps you from seeing Reality, I mean, keeps you from seeing clearly.  It's okay!

And JoMal thinks Artest is a saint.

And Laker fans think Bynum is the next Wilt instead of the next Yao.

And Rick thinks the Sixers are all stars.

Your point - that fans overrate their team's players.  DUH!

I would like to offer my condolances now -- do you think the Spurs will react when they get knocked out of the playoffs this year?  Their supporting cast is definately aging -- Horry, Bowen, and now Kurt Thomas, PJ Brown -- do the Spurs get a break with the salary cap if these players are eligible for Social Security? 

And how will the Lakers react when they are eliminated?  Will they realize Gasol plays no defense?  That Kobe should have had surgery?  That Fisher used up all his miracles in 2004?  That Buss will pay double for every signing because he is already over the luxury cap for next season?

My condolances right back at you.

[msc]

And how will the Lakers react when they are eliminated?  Will they realize Gasol plays no defense?  That Kobe should have had surgery?  That Fisher used up all his miracles in 2004?  That Buss will pay double for every signing because he is already over the luxury cap for next season?

These are all valid points/concerns, IMO, with the exception of the salary cap.  Personally, I could care less that the Lakers are over the cap.  I'm actually glad Buss finally stepped up w/Gasol and will have to get his check book out to re-sign Bynum, Kobe, Lamar, Farmar, etc.  The Lakers have been the most profitable NBA franchise since hector was a pup (I miss you Chick!) and Buss can more than afford it.  It's not like we're the Knicks and way over the cap maxed out with crappy, petulant players.  We've got a nice young core and Buss needs to step up and pay for it.  The profits from one round of the playoffs more than pays for their luxury tax exposure. 

Now carry on baiting Randy and WOW who are unbelievably taking you way to seriously... 

[Randy]

Buss shouldn't have a problem with paying the luxury tax -- if he does, he can just up the courtside ticket prices -- Jack will still buy his seat, no matter what the price is, if the Lakers are competing for a title every year.  He will STILL make money on the team.  In fact, this is one of those times that in order to make money -- you need to spend money.  I don't think it's a problem -- the Lakers won't have a problem adding Gasol and they won't have a problem locking up Bynum longterm either.

Now back to the topic at hand, if we listened to Lurker here -- Manu would be proclaimed the greatest player on the planet instead of a quality 3rd teir player who has a chance at making it to the 2nd tier.  Sometimes I almost think that he has dual citzenship the way he worships theses Argentinian players (oops, he quit worshipping Scola when he went to the Rockets -- now Scola can barely play basketball).  I realize that Lurker is a Spurs homer -- it taints Reality in his mind and twists it to the place that he can no longer realize that the sun is setting on the Spurs.  The Spurs will only go as far as their decrepit PF/C TD can take them.  Yes, I've read his posts -- he seems to be of the opinion that TD can play until he is 65 but his therapists said not to disagree with him -- but his spin of reality is so fragile that a jolt into Reality can possibly send him into a mind crashing into a comatose state similar to that of another Spurs fan.  He has gone through this before -- when he was faced with the antique DRob overdosing on geritol in order to make it out on the court.  The league bailed the Spurs out the last time by handing them the ping pong ball for TD -- I don't think the Spurs will get the same gift this time.  We are already looking into institutions when Lurker realizes that TD has not only lost a step but is sucking down a case of joint juice to stave off the already telling pains of old age.  Every team goes through it -- it's sad to see it happen to the Spurs just when the Lakers are ready to challenge them. 

There is good news though -- I understand that the Lakers are willing to play with forty pound weights on their shoulders so that the decaying Spurs can keep up in the open court.  Hmm, maybe they would be willing to spot the Spurs 20 points too -- that might actually make it fair.

[Lurker]

Now back to the topic at hand, if we listened to Lurker here -- Manu would be proclaimed the greatest player on the planet instead of a quality 3rd teir player who has a chance at making it to the 2nd tier.  Sometimes I almost think that he has dual citzenship the way he worships theses Argentinian players (oops, he quit worshipping Scola when he went to the Rockets -- now Scola can barely play basketball). 

I have always known your reading comprehension sucked but to go into full blown tornado mode is priceless.

I realize that Lurker is a Spurs homer -- it taints Reality in his mind and twists it to the place that he can no longer realize that the sun is setting on the Spurs.  The Spurs will only go as far as their decrepit PF/C TD can take them.  Yes, I've read his posts -- he seems to be of the opinion that TD can play until he is 65 but his therapists said not to disagree with him -- but his spin of reality is so fragile that a jolt into Reality can possibly send him into a mind crashing into a comatose state similar to that of another Spurs fan.  He has gone through this before -- when he was faced with the antique DRob overdosing on geritol in order to make it out on the court.  The league bailed the Spurs out the last time by handing them the ping pong ball for TD -- I don't think the Spurs will get the same gift this time.  We are already looking into institutions when Lurker realizes that TD has not only lost a step but is sucking down a case of joint juice to stave off the already telling pains of old age.  Every team goes through it -- it's sad to see it happen to the Spurs just when the Lakers are ready to challenge them. 

Randy, this is deeper into fantasy than anything I could dream up.  I guess it is a good thing the Hollywood writer's strike is over so you can resume collecting paychecks.

Maybe you should read NBA History 101 then come back to discuss.  A washed up DRob played 6 years with Duncan and won 2 titles.

And I still fail to understand how a 2 year younger player who has played more games and minutes in his career at a position that ages faster is going to lead a team of youngsters to multiple titles in a 3-4 year window.  While at the same time a 31 year old player with solid basketball fundamentals at a position that regularly plays into their late 30s has to use a wheel chair just to get from the bench to the scorer's table will fail.  But that was a question in another thread that no one cared to answer.

[JoMal]

And JoMal thinks Artest is a saint.

I do? Whatever. You have been in a panty-twisting way for a while yourself, so I won't judge you on that statement. Let's just say Artest has been managing his demons as well as any manic-depressive personality could while in Sacramento, and let his alleged sainthood hold off in the hyperbole.

But the point is how you been evolving on this board and how it appears you feel that certain others around here are playing games with you lately. And you are right, in that we tend to judge players on OUR teams in a better light then others will. With players like Artest and Bryant, the fun is what they do other then play excellent basketball, because it is hard to make fun of what they do on the court. Manu is a great player and what he did was phenomenal. But to immediately prejudge the responses by baiting others.....well.....just do not call them on it when they respond exactly like you set them up to respond and then accuse them of doing just that.

Frankly, that diluted Manu's achievement totally.

[Lurker]

And JoMal thinks Artest is a saint.

I do? Whatever. You have been in a panty-twisting way for a while yourself, so I won't judge you on that statement. Let's just say Artest has been managing his demons as well as any manic-depressive personality could while in Sacramento, and let his alleged sainthood hold off in the hyperbole.

And hyperbole is limited to only those who follow California teams?

So then your whole thread with Ted wasn't in the same vein?

And to follow your lead...I thought you had a better understanding of how this board works.

[Randy]

Now back to the topic at hand, if we listened to Lurker here -- Manu would be proclaimed the greatest player on the planet instead of a quality 3rd teir player who has a chance at making it to the 2nd tier.  Sometimes I almost think that he has dual citzenship the way he worships theses Argentinian players (oops, he quit worshipping Scola when he went to the Rockets -- now Scola can barely play basketball). 

I have always known your reading comprehension sucked but to go into full blown tornado mode is priceless.

I realize that Lurker is a Spurs homer -- it taints Reality in his mind and twists it to the place that he can no longer realize that the sun is setting on the Spurs.  The Spurs will only go as far as their decrepit PF/C TD can take them.  Yes, I've read his posts -- he seems to be of the opinion that TD can play until he is 65 but his therapists said not to disagree with him -- but his spin of reality is so fragile that a jolt into Reality can possibly send him into a mind crashing into a comatose state similar to that of another Spurs fan.  He has gone through this before -- when he was faced with the antique DRob overdosing on geritol in order to make it out on the court.  The league bailed the Spurs out the last time by handing them the ping pong ball for TD -- I don't think the Spurs will get the same gift this time.  We are already looking into institutions when Lurker realizes that TD has not only lost a step but is sucking down a case of joint juice to stave off the already telling pains of old age.  Every team goes through it -- it's sad to see it happen to the Spurs just when the Lakers are ready to challenge them. 

Randy, this is deeper into fantasy than anything I could dream up.  I guess it is a good thing the Hollywood writer's strike is over so you can resume collecting paychecks.

Maybe you should read NBA History 101 then come back to discuss.  A washed up DRob played 6 years with Duncan and won 2 titles.

And I still fail to understand how a 2 year younger player who has played more games and minutes in his career at a position that ages faster is going to lead a team of youngsters to multiple titles in a 3-4 year window.  While at the same time a 31 year old player with solid basketball fundamentals at a position that regularly plays into their late 30s has to use a wheel chair just to get from the bench to the scorer's table will fail.  But that was a question in another thread that no one cared to answer.

See, this is exactly what I mean in your Reality twisting world of seeing through Spurs glasses -- DRob played 6 years after TD came into the league but the last three years he was on life support -- barely able to keep a heartbeat in this NBA life.  We know everyone was guarding TD and slacking off of TD but every now and then, DRob would make it down the floor and surprise someone by making a basket.  I'm REALLY surprised that you don't remember that correctly -- there were a record number of opponents who fainted when DRob made a basket that year. 

We already see TD's downward trend -- this stats are already starting to slump.  Some players just don't make it that long in the NBA -- they get used up young.  Maybe it's the climate in San Antonio -- it's drying up his NBA career and his life (judging by the way he is moving on the court).  Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that he can't continue to play 15 to 20 quality minutes for the next year or two -- then the Spurs are going to have to limit his play and find someone to be the focus on the offense and the anchor of the defense -- like they did with DRob to allow him to play another 6 years.  I'm not saying that having TD playing 10 to 12 minutes a game won't be a good thing -- I bet the Lakers could even find room in their rotation for a player like TD -- no matter how worn out he is -- of course, he would probably only get to play in the games that weren't very close -- but the good news is, that would be about 80% of the Lakers games these days.  The Lakers don't seem to have problems with bottom dwellers like Memphis like SA does. 

There is a TREMENDOUS upside to all of this -- think of all the memories you have in those championship years -- hope you have 'em on tape so you can play them over and over again each June.

[Lurker]

See, this is exactly what I mean in your Reality twisting world of seeing through Spurs glasses -- DRob played 6 years after TD came into the league but the last three years he was on life support -- barely able to keep a heartbeat in this NBA life.  We know everyone was guarding TD and slacking off of TD but every now and then, DRob would make it down the floor and surprise someone by making a basket.  I'm REALLY surprised that you don't remember that correctly -- there were a record number of opponents who fainted when DRob made a basket that year. 

00/01  80 games  29.6 min  14.4 pts (3rd on team)  8.6 rebs (2nd)  2.5 blks  1.0  stls  48.6 FG%  74.7  FT%
01/02  78 games  29.5 min  12.2 pts (2nd on team)  8.3 rebs  1.8 blks  1.1 stls  50.7 FG%  68.1  FT%
02/03  64 games  26.2 min   8.5 pts (Parker/Manu joined team)  7.9 rebs (2nd)  1.7 blks  0.8 stls  46.9 FG%  71.0 FT%

Yes creaky old DRob skated by on Duncan's coattails.  Again I would suggest reading some history or at least doing a little research before posting "facts".

We already see TD's downward trend -- this stats are already starting to slump.  Some players just don't make it that long in the NBA -- they get used up young.  Maybe it's the climate in San Antonio -- it's drying up his NBA career and his life (judging by the way he is moving on the court).  Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that he can't continue to play 15 to 20 quality minutes for the next year or two -- then the Spurs are going to have to limit his play and find someone to be the focus on the offense and the anchor of the defense -- like they did with DRob to allow him to play another 6 years.  I'm not saying that having TD playing 10 to 12 minutes a game won't be a good thing -- I bet the Lakers could even find room in their rotation for a player like TD -- no matter how worn out he is -- of course, he would probably only get to play in the games that weren't very close -- but the good news is, that would be about 80% of the Lakers games these days. 

 

Well, if this is Duncan slowing down...

Duncan: 19.8 pts, 11.5 rebs, 1.96 blks, 51% FG, 24 double-doubles
That is 29th, 6th, 10th, 24th, and 5th in the NBA. 

But you will say that he slowing down...last 4 years
Points: 20.3  18.6  20.0  19.8
Rebs:  11.1  11.0  10.5  11.9
Blks:  2.6  2.0  2.4  2.0
Assts  2.7  3.2  3.4  3.3
FG%  49.6   48.4  54.6   51.0
Minutes:  33.4   34.8   34.1  34.8


Gee I hope Duncan can continue to get his wheelchair to the AT&T Center.

The Lakers don't seem to have problems with bottom dwellers like Memphis like SA does. 

Last time I checked both teams had 17 losses...

[JoMal]

And hyperbole is limited to only those who follow California teams?

OF COURSE!!!   Jeesh, you have to know how to use it properly or you can implode the universe, as having a Texan in the White House proves to us daily.

So then your whole thread with Ted wasn't in the same vein?

My whole thread with Ted was quite a bit different from your provocation with Laker and (if any were here) Cavalier fans. Ted detests Artest and called him a wuss in backing down from two Jazz players, which I objected to. You implied that, since Manu had done something on the basketball court that was extraordinary, it must bother them for some reason. While both are argumentative in basis, you set up one of the players on your own team and left his achievement as an afterthought. It just came across as a strange thing to do.   

And to follow your lead...I thought you had a better understanding of how this board works.

Lurker...<ahem.>...may I be so bold as to point out my understanding on how this board works appears to be top notch.

[WayOutWest]

00/01  80 games  29.6 min  14.4 pts (3rd on team)  8.6 rebs (2nd)  2.5 blks  1.0  stls  48.6 FG%  74.7  FT%
01/02  78 games  29.5 min  12.2 pts (2nd on team)  8.3 rebs  1.8 blks  1.1 stls  50.7 FG%  68.1  FT%
02/03  64 games  26.2 min   8.5 pts (Parker/Manu joined team)  7.9 rebs (2nd)  1.7 blks  0.8 stls  46.9 FG%  71.0 FT%

Yes creaky old DRob skated by on Duncan's coattails.  Again I would suggest reading some history or at least doing a little research before posting "facts".

I don't know how I would interperet those stats since 00/01 DRob is putting up 07/08 Shaq numbers and a lot of people are saying Shaq is washed up.  Looks like 98/99 was the begining of DRobs decline.  Looking at his career stats it seems like DRob had a 9 year run then started getting 07/08 Shaq numbers, I always considered DRob one of the best conditioned players in the league, strange he didn't last longer.  Of course Shaq usually took at least a dozen games off each season yet over the same number of career years, 14, DRob only played 50 more games.  I'm sure TD's arrival had a lot to do with so it is very hard to determine how much or how little DRob was contributing based on numbers alone.  The numbers don't really back up DRob since he was putting up washed-up-Shaq numbers in 1998, I think you needed to have watched those games and see how much of his stat decline was by choice.  From day 1 I heard a lot about DRob giving up time and stats in favor of brining TD along.  I really didn't see a major decline in DRobs abilties, he was still quick, strong and a very good defensive prescence.  Plus, when most Laker fans saw DRob it was with Shaq pounding on him so it's hard to judge him based on that alone.  Most of my DRob memories are of him abusing Ewing and Dream.

Well, if this is Duncan slowing down...

Duncan: 19.8 pts, 11.5 rebs, 1.96 blks, 51% FG, 24 double-doubles
That is 29th, 6th, 10th, 24th, and 5th in the NBA. 

But you will say that he slowing down...last 4 years
Points: 20.3  18.6  20.0  19.8
Rebs:  11.1  11.0  10.5  11.9
Blks:  2.6  2.0  2.4  2.0
Assts  2.7  3.2  3.4  3.3
FG%  49.6   48.4  54.6   51.0
Minutes:  33.4   34.8   34.1  34.8


Gee I hope Duncan can continue to get his wheelchair to the AT&T Center.

Last time I checked both teams had 17 losses...

TD hasn't slowed down much if you ask me, if anything I would say TD has become more efficient.  TD is getting about the same amount of numbers with a lot less effort and minutes.  In fact I would say this is TD's 3rd or 4th best season of his career, Parker and Manu have something to do with that.

Can we PLEASE get back to Manuella bashing!

[westkoast]

Should I start posting anytime Kobe does a cool but at the end of the day meaningless regular season feat?

[Lurker]

Should I start posting anytime Kobe does a cool but at the end of the day meaningless regular season feat?

If only 2 others have done it in the past 20 years...please do.  Same goes for any other player who accomplishes something unusual.

[Lurker]

00/01  80 games  29.6 min  14.4 pts (3rd on team)  8.6 rebs (2nd)  2.5 blks  1.0  stls  48.6 FG%  74.7  FT%
01/02  78 games  29.5 min  12.2 pts (2nd on team)  8.3 rebs  1.8 blks  1.1 stls  50.7 FG%  68.1  FT%
02/03  64 games  26.2 min   8.5 pts (Parker/Manu joined team)  7.9 rebs (2nd)  1.7 blks  0.8 stls  46.9 FG%  71.0 FT%

Yes creaky old DRob skated by on Duncan's coattails.  Again I would suggest reading some history or at least doing a little research before posting "facts".

I don't know how I would interperet those stats since 00/01 DRob is putting up 07/08 Shaq numbers and a lot of people are saying Shaq is washed up.  Looks like 98/99 was the begining of DRobs decline.  Looking at his career stats it seems like DRob had a 9 year run then started getting 07/08 Shaq numbers, I always considered DRob one of the best conditioned players in the league, strange he didn't last longer.  Of course Shaq usually took at least a dozen games off each season yet over the same number of career years, 14, DRob only played 50 more games.  I'm sure TD's arrival had a lot to do with so it is very hard to determine how much or how little DRob was contributing based on numbers alone.  The numbers don't really back up DRob since he was putting up washed-up-Shaq numbers in 1998, I think you needed to have watched those games and see how much of his stat decline was by choice.  From day 1 I heard a lot about DRob giving up time and stats in favor of brining TD along.  I really didn't see a major decline in DRobs abilties, he was still quick, strong and a very good defensive prescence.  Plus, when most Laker fans saw DRob it was with Shaq pounding on him so it's hard to judge him based on that alone.  Most of my DRob memories are of him abusing Ewing and Dream.

His defensive numbers held up until the last year...2 blocks and a steal per game.  And defensively is where most people point to Shaq for rapid decline.  That was also the years that the Spurs established their reputation for tough defense.  When Duncan arrived and then Parker & Manu his scoring responsibilities dropped quickly.  He still shot effeciently (49% in 01; 50+% in 02) and was respectable from the line.  Part of the problem is like you pointed out...in his final years he ran up against Shaq in his prime.  In probably DRob's finest season he ran into Hakeem's inspired playoff run.  That was one of the best series of playoff games I have ever seen in person.  Robinson had chronic back problems ever since the 1996/97 season which he missed almost the whole season (along with Elliott which resulted in Duncan).

[westkoast]

Should I start posting anytime Kobe does a cool but at the end of the day meaningless regular season feat?

If only 2 others have done it in the past 20 years...please do.  Same goes for any other player who accomplishes something unusual.

Should I make the Kobe scores 81 in a game thread now?