Author Topic: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade  (Read 5073 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« on: February 13, 2008, 07:48:57 PM »
The Lakers must be falling over with laughter by now.

In the wake of their acquisition of Pau Gasol -- a trade that cost them nothing of value -- two of their biggest rivals for Western Conference supremacy responded by dealing key pieces of their core for Eastern Conference legends in their mid-30s. First, of course, came Phoenix's deal for Shaquille O'Neal last week, and now the Mavericks have jumped in with today's close-to-completion deal for Jason Kidd.

This isn't nearly as bad as the Shaq trade -- let me get that out of the way up front. But it has the same whiff of panic to it, coming as it did after the Mavs suffered consecutive whippings at the hands of second-tier Eastern teams, and following Mark Cuban's insistence that Dallas wouldn't unload half its team for Kidd.

Obviously, the two main protagonists are Kidd and Harris. So let me ask you a provocative question that I brought up when the three-way version of this deal was kicked around: Would you trade Harris for Kidd straight up?

Based on notoriety alone, most would offer a quick yes. But shine that light a little closer. Kidd's PER this season is 16.07, while Harris is way ahead at 18.66. This may shock some people who have only seen the reports of his triple-doubles, but Kidd is scoring at a much lower rate this season, shooting a hideous 36.7 percent from the field, and his turnover rate has skyrocketed. While he's far from the only culprit, his decline is one reason the Nets are 25th in offensive efficiency.

Per 40 minutes, Harris averages nearly seven points more; that's huge; he also gets to the line more and shoots a far better percentage. His true shooting percentage of 59.2 dwarfs Kidd's 48.3. Think about that difference for a second -- for every nine shots they take (including free-throw sessions), Harris has a one-point advantage.

Finally, Harris is a huge plus at the defensive end, where he has the quickness to defend the Parkers, Pauls and Nashes of the West and was second in the league in offensive fouls drawn last season, according to 82games.com. By my methods, he was the best defensive point guard in the league in 2006-07. Unfortunately, the one guy he struggled against was Baron Davis, a fact that may be seared in the Mavs' memories given how last season ended.

Kidd's two big advantages are passing and rebounding, and they're gargantuan differences, make no mistake. But if you break it down, it seems his numbers in those two categories might decline in Dallas' system.

As far as assists go, the Mavs are one of the league's most isolation-heavy teams and annually have among the league's lowest rates of assisted baskets; the Nets are the opposite and are annually among the highest. It's possible Dallas changes some of that to take advantage of Kidd, of course, but somehow I imagine the high-post isos for Dirk Nowitzki and Josh Howard will remain the bread-and-butter of the offense.

Additionally, Kidd's passing skills are most lethal in transition, but the Mavs run infrequently. While some still imagine this as a wild-west Don Nelson outfit, Dallas has been one of the league's slowest-paced teams ever since Avery Johnson took over.

On the rebounds, New Jersey's frontcourt rebounding was historically bad for the first two months of this season, as I mentioned in another piece earlier on -- leaving a ton of boards available for Kidd to grab. In fact, Kidd's rebound rate has declined quite a bit since Josh Boone took over for Jason Collins, as fewer caroms were left over for the guards. Similarly, he won't have as many boards available for him to snag in Dallas, where the Mavs were already seventh in the league in defensive rebound rate (nearly all of Kidd's boards are defensive).

OK, so he won't score as much as Harris, and he might lose a bit on his rebounds and assists. One can still come up with some offsetting positives. For starters, Kidd is a leader in a locker room that appears in need of one. Dallas' testicular fortitude has been questioned in the past two postseasons, so perhaps he can make a difference there. And it's possible he'll be more motivated in Big D than he was in New Jersey; at the very least, I suspect he'll suffer from fewer headaches.

In addition, Kidd is a good defender against bigger guards, which means Dallas might be able to play him and Jason Terry together for 40 minutes and dispense with the 30 scoreless minutes they're getting each night from the Eddie Jones-Trenton Hassell combo. (Although just in case they get nostalgic, Wright's addition makes it a trio of wing guys who can defend but can't score).

But before you get too excited, look into the future. Kidd is 10 years older and costs five times as much; even after Harris' extension kicks in he'll be triple the cost. Which player do you think you'd rather have in 2008-09? What about in 2009-10, presuming the Mavs extend Kidd, when he'll be 36 and Harris 26?

I know, I know -- this move was made primarily with this season in mind. So let's say after all that you still like Kidd better than Harris. Do you like him so much better that you're willing to include Stackhouse and Diop and two first-round draft choices?

Diop was Dallas' starting center and best low-post defender (Side note: guess that Shaq trade had them real worried, huh?), while Stackhouse was one of their most important bench players. In fact, the irony of this trade is that a big reason for Dallas' recent struggles is that Harris and Stackhouse have been injured.

The Mavs are 4-4 since Harris went out; Stackhouse has played only once in that time, for just 11 minutes. It's an ugly 4-4 too. Of the wins, two were against Memphis and one was Milwaukee; of the losses, the losses included one-sided setbacks against Detroit, New Jersey and Philadelphia.

That takes us to an aspect of this trade nobody is paying any attention to: Harris' huge impact on the Mavs' success over the past two seasons. In 2006-07, when Dallas won 67 games, guess who had the biggest on-court vs. off-court point differential? Hint: It wasn't the MVP. According to 82games.com, Dallas was a whopping +14.2 points per 48 minutes with Harris on the court. Moreover, the Harris-Nowitzki combo was the single most effective player combination in the league.

This year, the Harris-Terry-Howard-Nowitzki-Dampier unit has played 164 minutes together and outscored opponents by 43 points (that's a whopping 12.6 points per 48 minutes). The four most common Harris-Terry arrangements all have massively positive point differentials, adding up to an advantage of +20.7 points per 48 minutes (!). So much for the idea that you can't play two small guards together.

No, we're not done yet -- there's one final point to consider. The Nets will likely buy out Stackhouse, but there's no guarantee Dallas will be able to resign him; in fact by rule they aren't allowed to for 30 days.

In the meantime, is it that hard to imagine bench-starved Cleveland diving in with the $4.1 million remaining on its midlevel exception, or the Pistons ($3.86 million) bringing him back to Motown to replace the struggling Jarvis Hayes? For that matter, what about the Spurs ($4.4 million) or Suns (full midlevel) breaking out the wampum just to spite their Western rivals? Keep in mind, too, that these salaries would be prorated for the rest of this year, lowering the luxury tax hit those teams would take.

In the final analysis, then, it seems Dallas gave up quite a bit to make what is, even with the most rose-colored glasses, a marginal upgrade at the point. It's possible it could work, but my issue with this deal is that the risk and reward seem out of line. Much like Phoenix with the Shaq deal, I can't help but wonder if the Mavs are fixated on what Kidd was 18 months ago rather than what he'll be over the next 18 months.

Let me repeat that I'm not nearly not as down on this trade as I am on Phoenix's. But on balance, I think it puts Dallas farther from a title rather than closer. And as a result, I suspect Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak may be having a quiet chuckle when he checks his Blackberry today.
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Offline msc

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2008, 08:25:44 PM »
Hollinger uses a bunch of stats to explain one thing I already knew:  Harris's speed has killed the Lakers.  The last match up with the Dallas, the only reason they kicked our butts was Harris.  Take him out and the Lakers would have killed them. His quickness against our PG's and ability to get in the paint was the reason they beat us that night and I'm sure the reason they've won several other games this year.  That's just my opinion, but Hollingers statistical analysis seems to support it. 

Good luck, Cuban!  Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy  ;).   This is hilarious too b/c it comes off of the heals of Cuban saying that he wasn't going to make a deal because Dallas is the team to beat and the Lakers and Suns moves are a reaction to them (Dallas)  :D   :D   :D  :D

Offline Randy

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2008, 09:42:05 AM »
Cuban is sure full of himself -- I think we should get Cuban and Shaq in a debate -- they wouldn't say anything intelligent but it sure would be funny.

I guess Cuban is suffering from memory block from last year -- the Mavs got owned and they STILL haven't forgot it.  I still think that Dirk gets that look like a deer caught in headlights.  Cuban should have invested in some team therapy -- it would be more effective than this trade, IMO.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2008, 09:58:28 AM »
If its true that Cuban pulled the trigger on this trade because of Baron Davis mainly and Pau Gasol second then it makes even less sense.  Baron Davis is still going to abuse Jason Kidd.  I know he's a good defender but let's not kidd (har har) ourselves here.  Baron Davis is still too strong for Jason Kidd and his cross over is going to work over Jason's knees.  If Baron Davis was able to use power and speed against Devin Harris there is no reason to thing he won't do it against an older guard .
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2008, 10:12:51 AM »
If its true that Cuban pulled the trigger on this trade because of Baron Davis mainly and Pau Gasol second then it makes even less sense.  Baron Davis is still going to abuse Jason Kidd.  I know he's a good defender but let's not kidd (har har) ourselves here.  Baron Davis is still too strong for Jason Kidd and his cross over is going to work over Jason's knees.  If Baron Davis was able to use power and speed against Devin Harris there is no reason to thing he won't do it against an older guard .

Baron Davis cannot over power Kidd, he cannot post Kidd up either but I don't think that is how Davis killed the Mavs.  It was more about his drives into the lane for easy buckets and dishes to the 3pt line.  Kidd will make it harder for Davis to do his damage in the lane but you are correct, Kidd will not stop Baron.

I wonder if it could have been part of the plan to have this "over sight" of George's Birds right stall the trade.  Now that NJ is in a horrible position with Kidd, I think they broke the news to the players and he didn't play with the Nets last night, the Mavs could use it as leverage to sweeten the deal for themselves.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 10:20:09 AM »
If its true that Cuban pulled the trigger on this trade because of Baron Davis mainly and Pau Gasol second then it makes even less sense.  Baron Davis is still going to abuse Jason Kidd.  I know he's a good defender but let's not kidd (har har) ourselves here.  Baron Davis is still too strong for Jason Kidd and his cross over is going to work over Jason's knees.  If Baron Davis was able to use power and speed against Devin Harris there is no reason to thing he won't do it against an older guard .

Baron Davis cannot over power Kidd, he cannot post Kidd up either but I don't think that is how Davis killed the Mavs.  It was more about his drives into the lane for easy buckets and dishes to the 3pt line.  Kidd will make it harder for Davis to do his damage in the lane but you are correct, Kidd will not stop Baron.

I wonder if it could have been part of the plan to have this "over sight" of George's Birds right stall the trade.  Now that NJ is in a horrible position with Kidd, I think they broke the news to the players and he didn't play with the Nets last night, the Mavs could use it as leverage to sweeten the deal for themselves.

I don't think youve watched Baron Davis much over the past two years but he is MUCH stronger then Jason Kidd is.  The guy probably is the strongest point guard with only someone like Deron Williams coming in a close second.  Ill go as far to say he WILL be able to post Kidd but mainly hes going to take him off the dribble.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2008, 10:24:57 AM »
Are you two sure Dallas is going to face Golden State in the playoffs?

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2008, 11:18:41 AM »
Hollinger is whacked. This is a worse trade than the Suns by far.  The Mavericks really were willing to gut their team to add Kidd, and he is too old to be the man anymore.

The Suns made a move that was based on the fact that Nash is getting old and the window for him to get a championsip is narrowing.  The Suns had no inside presence and had trouble making baskets in crunch time.  Well, they went out and got Captain Crunch himself in Shaq.

This is the perfect place for O'Neil, not where he will be relied on as a primary scorer night in and out, but as a role player- a specialist for the end of the half and the end of the game where he will be the go to guy and post up.  This will make it impossible for other teams to defend the Suns.  You can't double Shaq, because you need players to prevent Stoudamire from driving and Nash from passing to them both.  One way or another, the Suns will be able execute successfully in the half-court and should be able to still run away from teams while Shaq cheers from the bench.

The Suns had no choice.  They've been trying to run through the playoffs for years and couldn't get it done.  Now they will try to pound their way into the finals, just like Miami did.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2008, 11:26:02 AM »
Uh, Rick, did you watch the Miami championship?  Wade was Mr Crunch for them.  A small thing called Hack-a-Shaq neutralizes Shaq in the final minutes.  And "pounding the ball into Shaq" takes the ball out of your best player's (Nash) hands. 

And I saw an interesting question...as an opposing coach do you have a player foul Shaq in the backcourt to stop a Suns fast break?
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2008, 11:53:29 AM »
Are you two sure Dallas is going to face Golden State in the playoffs?

Sternfish will ensure that matchup, just like Sternfish ensured that Suns players would be suspended in the 2007 Gift Playoffs.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2008, 11:56:29 AM »
Uh, Rick, did you watch the Miami championship?  Wade was Mr Crunch for them.  A small thing called Hack-a-Shaq neutralizes Shaq in the final minutes.  And "pounding the ball into Shaq" takes the ball out of your best player's (Nash) hands. 

And I saw an interesting question...as an opposing coach do you have a player foul Shaq in the backcourt to stop a Suns fast break?

LOL!  Hack-A-Shaq was employed in Shaq's PRIME!  Put the ball in Shaq's hands in crunch time?  Somebody has been living in a cave for the last 8 years.  Crunch time Shaq for the Lakers meant having Shaq inbound the ball and stay out of bounds in the hope that the opposing teams would forget you could still fould him and send him to the FT line.  It got to the point that crunch time OFFENSE meant putting Shaq on the bench.  Can we purchase a clue on EBay or something?
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Reality

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 12:20:04 PM »
This is the perfect place for O'Neil, not where he will be relied on as a primary scorer night in and out, but as a role player- a specialist for the end of the half and the end of the game where he will be the go to guy and post up.  This will make it impossible for other teams to defend the Suns.  You can't double Shaq, because you need players to prevent Stoudamire from driving and Nash from passing to them both.  One way or another, the Suns will be able execute successfully in the half-court and should be able to still run away from teams while Shaq cheers from the bench.

The Suns had no choice.  They've been trying to run through the playoffs for years and couldn't get it done.  Now they will try to pound their way into the finals, just like Miami did.
rick,
Shaq was on the floor in the 4th qtr for the at least the last halfs of 3 of 4 wins of the Heats 2006 Championship finals vs the Mavs.  While true Dwade did most of the scoring, I see where you wrote Shaq can and will be "not where he will be relied on as a primary scorer night in and out, but as a role player"
Indeed in Gm 3 and facing elimination as they trailed by 10 in the 4th, Shaq indeed played and shotputted in his only two FT attemps to pull the Heat within 93-90 with less then 2 min to play.
You've got to understand most Lakers and all Laker board posters are programmed to watch glory ball.  They do not understand role players.
The Shaq haters/Krishnas are still carrying a torch and trying to justify the stoopid Laker trade in any way shape or twist they can.
Truth be told Shaq definitely contributed to the Heats win and I hear what you are saying re his potential role with Phx.
Lets pray for a Suns-Collusionists playoff matchup (with fair refs).

Offline westkoast

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 12:22:35 PM »
This is the perfect place for O'Neil, not where he will be relied on as a primary scorer night in and out, but as a role player- a specialist for the end of the half and the end of the game where he will be the go to guy and post up.  This will make it impossible for other teams to defend the Suns.  You can't double Shaq, because you need players to prevent Stoudamire from driving and Nash from passing to them both.  One way or another, the Suns will be able execute successfully in the half-court and should be able to still run away from teams while Shaq cheers from the bench.

The Suns had no choice.  They've been trying to run through the playoffs for years and couldn't get it done.  Now they will try to pound their way into the finals, just like Miami did.
rick,
Shaq was on the floor in the 4th qtr for the at least the last halfs of 3 of 4 wins of the Heats 2006 Championship finals vs the Mavs.  While true Dwade did most of the scoring, I see where you wrote Shaq can and will be "not where he will be relied on as a primary scorer night in and out, but as a role player"
Indeed in Gm 3 and facing elimination as they trailed by 10 in the 4th, Shaq indeed played and shotputted in his only two FT attemps to pull the Heat within 93-90 with less then 2 min to play.
You've got to understand most Lakers and all Laker board posters are programmed to watch glory ball.  They do not understand role players.
The Shaq haters/Krishnas are still carrying a torch and trying to justify the stoopid Laker trade in any way shape or twist they can.
Truth be told Shaq definitely contributed to the Heats win and I hear what you are saying re his potential role with Phx.
Lets pray for a Suns-Collusionists playoff matchup (with fair refs).

LOL!!  This post is rich.  Not only are you downright lying but you are still clinging to the Lakers are STOOPID for trading Shaq when it's clear to EVERYONE that it was the right thing to do after seeing what happened to Miami and what this team has become.  You sir are getting more dumb by the day.

Its funny that you have the lowest bball IQ on the board but you seem to think that you are far superior to the "Kirshnas"
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Offline Reality

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2008, 12:28:40 PM »
LOL!!  This post is rich.  Not only are you downright lying but you are still clinging to the Lakers are STOOPID for trading Shaq when it's clear to EVERYONE that it was the right thing to do after seeing what happened to Miami and what this team has become.  You sir are getting more dumb by the day.

Its funny that you have the lowest bball IQ on the board but you seem to think that you are far superior to the "Kirshnas"
B-Rad, if you could back up 1% of what you post.
Do a cut n paste and show us how EVERYONE thought trading Shaq was the right thing to do.
EVERYONE  :D

Offline westkoast

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Re: Hollingers take on the Kidd trade
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2008, 12:32:26 PM »
LOL!!  This post is rich.  Not only are you downright lying but you are still clinging to the Lakers are STOOPID for trading Shaq when it's clear to EVERYONE that it was the right thing to do after seeing what happened to Miami and what this team has become.  You sir are getting more dumb by the day.

Its funny that you have the lowest bball IQ on the board but you seem to think that you are far superior to the "Kirshnas"
B-Rad, if you could back up 1% of what you post.
Do a cut n paste and show us how EVERYONE thought trading Shaq was the right thing to do.
EVERYONE  :D

Reality you back it up for me every day with your idiotic posts.  Why would I do any lifting when you are doing all the work to prove you are a moron lol

Reading is FUNdamental Reality.  I never said that EVERYONE thought initially it was right.  If you continued to read before you hit quote (this is where the thinking before you post comes in, TBYP) it says  "right thing to do after seeing what happened to Miami and what this team has become"

TBYP
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