Another shift of power in the West? Shaq heading back to the land of Sunshine!!

[rickortreat]

Just be around to apologize and give me my props when the Suns take the West because of the addition of Shaq!

This was a necessary move by the Suns since they were only 14-12 against WC teams this season- not the kind of dominance you expect from a contending team.  Face it, they could outscore anyone, but teams with defensive stoppers in the middle would beat them as often as not.  Dallas, San Antonio, even LA gave them problems.  Detroit had no problems with them, and Boston was better hands down.

Now all those teams get to face the Diesel once again.  Older, sure.  Slower?  Yeah. Smaller? NO! HE's Still The BIG MAN in the game.  Don't double team him and he will score.  Do double him and he will pass.  He gets as many point as Marion does, but he does it inside and gets other teams bigs in foul trouble.

Yes, he's slow, but so is the NBA half-court game.  And even on a fast break- you need someone to rebound and send the outlet pass.

The Suns have enough players and depth to allow Shaq to not play 35 min. a game. It's a much better fit for him as this should be his last hurrah.  By the way, with Nash at 35 the Suns don't have that big a window anyway.  It makes sense to try to go for it with Shaq. It's not like the Spurs were going to give up Duncan.

So it made sense for Phoenix and I think it will work for them.  Like with the Gasol trade let's see how the teams come together after their new additions.  It's not panic time for the Spurs yet. But this may force them to make a move.

[westkoast]

Just be around to apologize and give me my props when the Suns take the West because of the addition of Shaq!

This was a necessary move by the Suns since they were only 14-12 against WC teams this season- not the kind of dominance you expect from a contending team.  Face it, they could outscore anyone, but teams with defensive stoppers in the middle would beat them as often as not.  Dallas, San Antonio, even LA gave them problems.  Detroit had no problems with them, and Boston was better hands down.

Now all those teams get to face the Diesel once again.  Older, sure.  Slower?  Yeah. Smaller? NO! HE's Still The BIG MAN in the game.  Don't double team him and he will score.  Do double him and he will pass.  He gets as many point as Marion does, but he does it inside and gets other teams bigs in foul trouble.

Yes, he's slow, but so is the NBA half-court game.  And even on a fast break- you need someone to rebound and send the outlet pass.

The Suns have enough players and depth to allow Shaq to not play 35 min. a game. It's a much better fit for him as this should be his last hurrah.  By the way, with Nash at 35 the Suns don't have that big a window anyway.  It makes sense to try to go for it with Shaq. It's not like the Spurs were going to give up Duncan.

So it made sense for Phoenix and I think it will work for them.  Like with the Gasol trade let's see how the teams come together after their new additions.  It's not panic time for the Spurs yet. But this may force them to make a move.

LOL...we will see.  How getting an injured player automatically makes them better then the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics, and Pistons...I dunno.  We know why you think they are better then the Lakers, that's a given.  It's crazy how when certain players leave teams they are automatically better.

If you haven't seen him in action this year you will realize that movement doesn't work so well for Shaq anymore.   The fact that no one on this squad can defend and expect him to stop dribble penetration is going to get him into just as much foul trouble as he did in Miami.

[Lurker]

It's not panic time for the Spurs yet. But this may force them to make a move.

Why should the Spurs panic...they beat the Shaq when he had Kobe as a sidekick.  The last series the two played needed a 0.4 second miracle for LA to pull it out.  No one on the Suns comes close to matching what Kobe brings to the floor.

Pat Riley complained about Shaq's defense, or lack thereof, this season over and over.  When Shaq complained about touches (wait until this surfaces in the desert) Riley told him to stop getting in foul trouble.  So now he will clog the mioddlew in Phoenix and reach out to grab all of the quick guards that blow by Nash.  A big part of Phoenix's defensive problems started with Nash guarding opposing PGs.  Taking away your best on the ball defender for a slow footed big man who HAS BEEN GETTING IN FOUL TROUBLE ALL YEAR is not the recipe for success.  I'm not exactly sure how Shaq will get opponents into foul trouble when he can't stay on the floor.
  
That doesn't even take into consideration that Shaq currently isn't playing.  So exactly how will his new teammates learn to play with him?  There is little true practice time in the NBA season and Shaq is so different than any other post player the Suns have had.  Usually it takes several weeks for a team to integrate a new player.  That will be several weeks AFTER Shaq starts playing again.

Some food for thought...assume that 80% of Shaq's fouls lead to 2 FTs (most are in the lane against shooters)

Shaq's Games  FGA   FTA   Fouls  Opp FTA
05/06    59     800    471    230     368
06/07    40     479    294    139     222
07/08    33     329    178    135     216

[westkoast]

It's not panic time for the Spurs yet. But this may force them to make a move.

Why should the Spurs panic...they beat the Shaq when he had Kobe as a sidekick.  The last series the two played needed a 0.4 second miracle for LA to pull it out.  No one on the Suns comes close to matching what Kobe brings to the floor.

Pat Riley complained about Shaq's defense, or lack thereof, this season over and over.  When Shaq complained about touches (wait until this surfaces in the desert) Riley told him to stop getting in foul trouble.  So now he will clog the mioddlew in Phoenix and reach out to grab all of the quick guards that blow by Nash.  A big part of Phoenix's defensive problems started with Nash guarding opposing PGs.  Taking away your best on the ball defender for a slow footed big man who HAS BEEN GETTING IN FOUL TROUBLE ALL YEAR is not the recipe for success.  I'm not exactly sure how Shaq will get opponents into foul trouble when he can't stay on the floor.
 
That doesn't even take into consideration that Shaq currently isn't playing.  So exactly how will his new teammates learn to play with him?  There is little true practice time in the NBA season and Shaq is so different than any other post player the Suns have had.  Usually it takes several weeks for a team to integrate a new player.  That will be several weeks AFTER Shaq starts playing again.

Some food for thought...assume that 80% of Shaq's fouls lead to 2 FTs (most are in the lane against shooters)

Shaq's Games  FGA   FTA   Fouls  Opp FTA
05/06    59     800    471    230     368
06/07    40     479    294    139     222
07/08    33     329    178    135     216

As W.O.W would say...OWNED!  There is no reason for the Spurs to be worried about Shaq.  Reason being is the Suns pre-Shaq game plan was good enough to challenge the Spurs.  They could have beat them last year playing that style.  Now that they are switching up their style they are playing into the Spurs hands.  You don't want the best defensive team in the league to be able to get set.  You also don't want to battle in the half court against a team that is better then you in the half court.  Doesn't make sense.  2002 Shaq..sure.  2008 Shaq? Not a chance.

However to simply put it...they are asking too much of Shaq at this stage in his career.  They want him to be a bona fide low post threat, rebound, and defend the paint?  If Shaq was able to do all those things at a level to where it makes the Suns the best team in the league automatically then Miami wouldn't have won only 9 games before he left.  They also would have done much better in the playoffs last year. 

[WayOutWest]

First off, EVERYTHING negative posters have said about Shaq is TRUE.  He's obviously older.  He's slower.  He's gotten lazy on defense.  He cannot dominate on offense.  His is not in good shape.

BUT THIS IS SHAQ.

Shaq has the ability to dominate for stints.  Shaq has the ability to get himself back into decent shape by playoff time.  Shaq now has TWO organizations he can show up and say F you.  We have seen Shaq step up when he is motivated.  With the Lakers motivation would be 90% of what he needed to doimante.  Even being fat and with little condiditioning, he could still turn the switch on and kick butt.  Now his motivation is only half the battle, the remaining half is his coniditioning and health.  If Shaq can get back to 70% to 80% of what he was for Miami, teams who rely on their big man are going to be in trouble.  IMO the Suns have now addressed their problem with the Spurs and Lakers as well as they could for this years playoffs.  Shaq already but his ego and reputation on the line by guaranting all the Suns fans at last nights game a ring.

In short, if anyone can do it for the Suns it is Shaq.

[westkoast]

First off, EVERYTHING negative posters have said about Shaq is TRUE.  He's obviously older.  He's slower.  He's gotten lazy on defense.  He cannot dominate on offense.  His is not in good shape.

BUT THIS IS SHAQ.

Shaq has the ability to dominate for stints.  Shaq has the ability to get himself back into decent shape by playoff time.  Shaq now has TWO organizations he can show up and say F you.  We have seen Shaq step up when he is motivated.  With the Lakers motivation would be 90% of what he needed to doimante.  Even being fat and with little condiditioning, he could still turn the switch on and kick butt.  Now his motivation is only half the battle, the remaining half is his coniditioning and health.  If Shaq can get back to 70% to 80% of what he was for Miami, teams who rely on their big man are going to be in trouble.  IMO the Suns have now addressed their problem with the Spurs and Lakers as well as they could for this years playoffs.  Shaq already but his ego and reputation on the line by guaranting all the Suns fans at last nights game a ring.

In short, if anyone can do it for the Suns it is Shaq.

80% of what he was for Miami the past 2 season is not going to get it done to where they win a title.  That is just the fact of the matter.  Last year they lost to the Chicago Bulls in the first round.

The thing is even if all the stars align...he gets healthy, he puts forth more effort, and he puts his ego to the side......the Suns are still switching up their entire style of basketball for him.  A style of basketball that has been effective against both the Lakers and Spurs in the playoffs the past 2 years.  Turning a switch for two styles of basketball is just not how it works in this league.  The Suns are not so much better then the Lakers and Spurs to where they have a huge margin of error.  Moreso with the Lakers then Spurs obviously but you catch my drift.

[JoMal]

There is little likelihood this trade will automatically result in the Suns winning the West. Putting a stationary pole in the middle of greyhounds just means the Suns will see alot of five on four play until Shaq can move into position, which can do nothing but slow down that offense.

If this trade solves whatever problems the Suns perceived because they have lost twice to the Lakers this season BEFORE Gasol joined that team, it would do no good to tell them that they have won sixty plus games the last two seasons and were on course to win at least 58 THIS season before they panicked.

At best, it won't alter their playoff run much. At worse, it will.

[WayOutWest]

The thing is even if all the stars align...he gets healthy, he puts forth more effort, and he puts his ego to the side......the Suns are still switching up their entire style of basketball for him.  A style of basketball that has been effective against both the Lakers and Spurs in the playoffs the past 2 years.  Turning a switch for two styles of basketball is just not how it works in this league.  The Suns are not so much better then the Lakers and Spurs to where they have a huge margin of error.  Moreso with the Lakers then Spurs obviously but you catch my drift.

I totally disagree, note the 80's Lakers with Kareem.  Just cause you have one guy who can't keep up with the tempo doesn't mean the Suns have to change.  The "switching their ENTIRE style of basketball" comments are just knee jerk reactions.  Have you actually watched the Suns play?  Did you ever watch the Lakers of the 80's play?  It was NOT 5 on X fast break.  It was typically two on one or three on 1 or 2 fast breaks.  RARELY would there be more than 3 guys running on the break.  Now if you are talking about delayed fast breaks, one's where they attack before you can get set, then it's not really Shaq that's going to hurt them there either.  What is going to hurt the Suns is not having Marion around in those situations.  Having three legit finishers really poses a threat on a delayed break, when you have your finishers on the break already run their lanes, having another finisher on the delayed break cutting hard really hurts the opposing defense since the defense is busy picking up the first wave of mismatches.

Agreed there will be some change/adjustment but it's not as drastic as some would like to paint.  Do I think this was a slam dunk for the Suns?  NO.  Can Shaq shock the world?  Yes.  Will the Suns win the title?  Dunno.

[westkoast]

The thing is even if all the stars align...he gets healthy, he puts forth more effort, and he puts his ego to the side......the Suns are still switching up their entire style of basketball for him.  A style of basketball that has been effective against both the Lakers and Spurs in the playoffs the past 2 years.  Turning a switch for two styles of basketball is just not how it works in this league.  The Suns are not so much better then the Lakers and Spurs to where they have a huge margin of error.  Moreso with the Lakers then Spurs obviously but you catch my drift.

I totally disagree, note the 80's Lakers with Kareem.  Just cause you have one guy who can't keep up with the tempo doesn't mean the Suns have to change.  The "switching their ENTIRE style of basketball" comments are just knee jerk reactions.  Have you actually watched the Suns play?  Did you ever watch the Lakers of the 80's play?  It was NOT 5 on X fast break.  It was typically two on one or three on 1 or 2 fast breaks.  RARELY would there be more than 3 guys running on the break.  Now if you are talking about delayed fast breaks, one's where they attack before you can get set, then it's not really Shaq that's going to hurt them there either.  What is going to hurt the Suns is not having Marion around in those situations.  Having three legit finishers really poses a threat on a delayed break, when you have your finishers on the break already run their lanes, having another finisher on the delayed break cutting hard really hurts the opposing defense since the defense is busy picking up the first wave of mismatches.

Agreed there will be some change/adjustment but it's not as drastic as some would like to paint.  Do I think this was a slam dunk for the Suns?  NO.  Can Shaq shock the world?  Yes.  Will the Suns win the title?  Dunno.

First off you are comparing different eras.  The style of basketball is different now.  Fundamentals have disapeared and been replaced with raw athletic ability.  The Lakers team you are referring to played much better defense then the Suns current squad.  That allowed them a little bit more leeway on the offensive end knowing they can stop the other team.  The Suns dont have that.  Shaq wont break that either.

Second you are comparing Kareem to Shaq.  The weight difference alone makes it apples and oranges.  Running up and down the court with an extra 80-90 pounds makes a difference.  Especially when you are coming off an injury to your hip and have foot problems.

It's not a knee jerk comment.  They push the ball to get easy shots.  You are making it sound as if its something that I am making up.  They have a book about the team with reference to only taking 6 seconds of getting a shot off.  While I am not saying they always run up and down...surely they are not a half court team.  They haven't been a half court team since Charles Barkley was there.  They change ends better then any other team and that is how they are able to be so effective on offense.  They don't let teams get set on the defensive end.  That leads to lay ups, mismatches, and open 3s.

It is a drastic change to switch up your style of basketball in March that you've been playing for 3 years now.  That really is too close to the playoffs to even build real momentum.  Shaq is not going to shock the world.  He just doesn't have it in him anymore.

[Randy]

Why is everyone thinking that Shaq is suddenly going to bring the Suns a title -- he MIGHT have been able to help the Suns IF they could have kept their team intact.  As it is, the Suns just traded their BEST player!!!  Sure, scream all you want about how great Nash is -- but who was the Suns best defender?  Marion!  Who was at the end of 75% of Nash's alley-oops in the open court?  Marion!  The Suns lost FAR more than they gained!!!

Anyone who thinks that Shaq, at 36 and scale-breaking weight is simply going to "become motivated" and get in game shape is a little disillusioned.  I don't think Shaq's body has it in him anymore.  Shaq has moved up and down so many times that his body is just calling it quits.  Shaq can't move his feet anymore and he never played the pick-n-roll well -- now he just gives up.  Shaq can't camp in the lane -- defensive 3 seconds and so that means he has to be able to move quick enough to get to the driver -- he is playing defense with his hands these days and that just isn't going to get it done.  It will land him in foul trouble and force him to watch from the bench.

I just DON'T understand this move by the Suns.  They got rid of Thomas because they didn't want to pay the luxury tax so now they trade for Shaq because they didn't have anyone to guard the middle?  Why didn't they just keep Thomas?  Thomas is more effective in 48 minutes, IMO, than Shaq is for 15.  The Suns got rid of their best player (who made Nash look GREAT!) overall -- the Suns are REALLY going to regret this.  Marion was also one of the Suns best rebounders.  Shaq isn't as good, at least at this point in the season, as Marion was. 

The Suns don't scare people NEARLY as much as they used to in the open court.  Marion is one of the most versatile and gifted players in the open court -- a great scorer and shooter (with also the ugliest shot in the league).  Outside of Nash, the Suns just gave up their best player in the open court.  But one of the poorer defending teams in the league just got worse!

Lurker, I love that Spurs fans remember the ".4 miracle" but fail to remember the ".11 miracle" by Duncan from almost 3 point land (WAY out of his shooting range and way off-balance). 

[Reality]

I think Krishnas and realists alike would like to be entertained by a Phx-Lakers playoff series.

[Lurker]

Lurker, I love that Spurs fans remember the ".4 miracle" but fail to remember the ".11 miracle" by Duncan from almost 3 point land (WAY out of his shooting range and way off-balance). 

Good to have you back Randy.

People always rememeber game winning miracles.

For example in 1999 the Spurs beat the Blazers in the second round on Sean Elliott's "Memorial Day Miracle".  No one remembers who hit the basket for the Blazers that caused SA to call time out and set up the winning shot.

Besides the simple fact that Duncan's shot was much, much closer to the FT line (inside the key) than the arc.  But revisionist history was always one of your strong suits.

[WayOutWest]

Besides the simple fact that Duncan's shot was much, much closer to the FT line (inside the key) than the arc.  But revisionist history was always one of your strong suits.

That was a lucky or miracle shot was well.  Shaq defended TD perfectly, short of blocking the shot, but Duncan still "chucked" it in off balance and falling down if I remember correctly.

I still don't understand why people think the Suns style of play involves a FIVE man fast break.  It's usually 2 or 3 man fast break with the remaining players rarely crossing the half court line.  The only difference is Shaq will never be one of the players on the break but they 4 other guys who will.  Of course Marion was the best guy on the wing for Nash because of his combo of speed and size, this now makes Barbosa the premier wing for the Suns and while his speed is superior and nearly unguardable he won't be able to score OVER any defender the way Marion could.

[westkoast]

Besides the simple fact that Duncan's shot was much, much closer to the FT line (inside the key) than the arc.  But revisionist history was always one of your strong suits.

That was a lucky or miracle shot was well.  Shaq defended TD perfectly, short of blocking the shot, but Duncan still "chucked" it in off balance and falling down if I remember correctly.

I still don't understand why people think the Suns style of play involves a FIVE man fast break.  It's usually 2 or 3 man fast break with the remaining players rarely crossing the half court line.  The only difference is Shaq will never be one of the players on the break but they 4 other guys who will.  Of course Marion was the best guy on the wing for Nash because of his combo of speed and size, this now makes Barbosa the premier wing for the Suns and while his speed is superior and nearly unguardable he won't be able to score OVER any defender the way Marion could.

It's not the five man fast break.  Its the spacing of the 5 players who can pretty much shoot from anywhere on the floor.  You have a center with a jumper and a guy playing PF who can hit a 3.   You dont want to run a 4 or 5 man break anyways.  You really want a 3 man break.  So its not so much about that as it is 1) Shaq having to run back and forth more and 2) Spacing of shooters/moving with out the ball.  If you dump it into Shaq who has to be right next to the basket to score then you now have a defender right in the middle of the paint.  Whereas before if Amare was at the 5 he could take you off the dribble at the elbow, he could jump over you, he could hit a baseline jumper.....

[Randy]

Lurker, I love that Spurs fans remember the ".4 miracle" but fail to remember the ".11 miracle" by Duncan from almost 3 point land (WAY out of his shooting range and way off-balance). 

Good to have you back Randy.

People always rememeber game winning miracles.

For example in 1999 the Spurs beat the Blazers in the second round on Sean Elliott's "Memorial Day Miracle".  No one remembers who hit the basket for the Blazers that caused SA to call time out and set up the winning shot.

Besides the simple fact that Duncan's shot was much, much closer to the FT line (inside the key) than the arc.  But revisionist history was always one of your strong suits.

Yeah, spoken like a Spurs fan who can't remember that TD was closer to the arc than he was the FT line but I don't expect you to get it right -- you still think that Avery Johnson was a quality PG in the NBA.  Delusions seem to be part of "reality" on this board! 

As for Elliott, he still ranks as one of my favorite players in the NBA -- somehow I manage to look past the fact that he was a Spur.