Deja vu all over again. Lakers rolling hot then the injury bug hits! Bynum hurt.

[Skandery]

IMO if Bynum is not 1,000% he should not play, no need to risk a permenant injury on a guy that's so young and is ALLEGEDLY the next great center.  While I am very happy with his progress this year, 13/10 is NOT exactly something to write home about, Laker fans are just still in shock over losing Shaq and having him replaced with ZERO's like Mihm and Kwame that an average center like Bynum looks like Hakeem/Ewing.

Just say you're wrong already!!  Krykee!

"Fellas, I know I came out here on the board and had no faith.  I said he was a no-talent a$$-clown ala Rasho.  I even didn't bother to look up to spell his name right calling him Bryman his entire rookie year.  I said the best he could ever hope for was to be a role playing goon.  I was wrong.  W-R-O-N-G.  Ah well."

. . . that's all we need from ya, WOW.   

[JoMal]

It doesn't really help when most of the Western Conference teams are playing at high level and your team is missing key players.  In fact it really sucks when your division has the team with the two best records in the west.

Seven of the top eight teams in the west are playing better then .600 ball. No, that does not generate much anticipation for my team this year.

[msc]

While I am very happy with his progress this year, 13/10 is NOT exactly something to write home about, Laker fans are just still in shock over losing Shaq and having him replaced with ZERO's like Mihm and Kwame that an average center like Bynum looks like Hakeem/Ewing.

I agree with you WOW as I have been and still am reluctant to annoint Bynum the next anything.  However, it's not just the 13/10 ... we've really seen how his presense offensively and defensively makes a difference in the game.  Offensively, having a decent post guy of his length opens things up for everyone else.  I don't think it's an accident that the Lakers have had more and more guys contributing and scoring in double figures this year.  IMO, it's directly related to the big kid.  Defensively, last night was a painful example of how bad we missed his defensive presense.  The Sonics were shooting 54% midway through the 3rd.  I know they ended up in the high-40's by games end, which is still way to high ... but Bynum has been very effective controlling the paint this season blocking shots and altering even more.   Not to mention rebounding ... Nick Collison had 18 boards ... WTF?!?!

[westkoast]

While I am very happy with his progress this year, 13/10 is NOT exactly something to write home about, Laker fans are just still in shock over losing Shaq and having him replaced with ZERO's like Mihm and Kwame that an average center like Bynum looks like Hakeem/Ewing.

I agree with you WOW as I have been and still am reluctant to annoint Bynum the next anything.  However, it's not just the 13/10 ... we've really seen how his presense offensively and defensively makes a difference in the game.  Offensively, having a decent post guy of his length opens things up for everyone else.  I don't think it's an accident that the Lakers have had more and more guys contributing and scoring in double figures this year.  IMO, it's directly related to the big kid.  Defensively, last night was a painful example of how bad we missed his defensive presense.  The Sonics were shooting 54% midway through the 3rd.  I know they ended up in the high-40's by games end, which is still way to high ... but Bynum has been very effective controlling the paint this season blocking shots and altering even more.   Not to mention rebounding ... Nick Collison had 18 boards ... WTF?!?!

Gotta disagree with you here MSC.

Last year the ball was being distributed well when everyone was on the floor.  Walton and Odom did an excellent job of sharing the basketball during last year's run to go 13 games over .500.  Offensively he does help with spacing as he is a legit threat they have to pay attention to.  However it's the fact that they are running the triangle a lot better that is helping quite a bit.   Farmar's passing has improved a great deal.  Fisher is a much better passer then Parker.  Bynum is also a decent passer in the post (something he doesn't get much credit for) but I wouldn't say he is the direct result of the ball being moved well anymore then Fisher, Farmar, or Kobe.

On the defensive end I agree.  His shot blocking presence is where I think he clearly shines.  He alters a lot of shots in the paint and he is very good at gobbling up the boards.  However Seattle shot 54% last night not because of anything Bynum would have helped with.  They were getting burned by the pick and roll mainly.  The other part was Wally being lights out in the first half.  Even with Kobe and Trevor up on him.  To say Seattle wouldn't have shot that well from outside if Bynum was there is not really that true.  I wouldn't say he's exceptional at guarding the pick and roll.

13 and 10 proves that Bynum is not some kind of super paint monster that is deserving of some of the hype Ive heard in LALA Land.  However when he has nights where he goes 27 and 15 with 3 blocks does show he will only continue to get better as time progresses.  That is something to write home about.  WOW has to ride the "he sucks" train for a while because he argued so hard last year with everyone here.  Until Bynum scores 40 points in one night and grabs 40 boards he will be on him.

[Lurker]

In fact it really sucks when your division has the team with the two best records in the west.

Well, that didn't last long...

[WayOutWest]

...when he has nights where he goes 27 and 15 with 3 blocks does show he will only continue to get better as time progresses.  That is something to write home about.  WOW has to ride the "he sucks" train for a while because he argued so hard last year with everyone here.  Until Bynum scores 40 points in one night and grabs 40 boards he will be on him.

...when he has nights where he goes 27 and 15 with 3 blocks...

When Bynum averages those numbers then I will jump on the bandwagon.  His footwork and agility this year is light years ahead of his past.  As of now he is just playing "big", nothing more.  I know some of you like to emulate Reality and his spinning and outright misquotes, ala Skandar, but I said from day one he would be a journey man center AND at BEST he could develop into a Robert Parish type of player.  Parish was clearly not a top tier center but he was better than the average center, especially in the playoffs.  Bynum from day one reminded me of Parish and Ewing because of his length and akward athelticism. 

I don't know how many of you recognize that "big" type of akwardness/motion/movement that you see it in players, especially C's and PF's, pretty much anyone over 6' can have that attribute.  TD and Rasheed are perfect examples of that type of body, despite their EXTENSIVE skills and moves, there is something stiff/mechanical about thier movements.  Chris Webber and Shaq are perfect examples of the opposite, big men who move like small guys.  It's like you or me playing on a 7 foot rim, nothing big about our games it's just that the basket is so close you look like you are just "tossing" the balls in with little effort or skill.  Even guards are like that, TMac moves like a big man and Dwade does not.

[westkoast]

Are you the only one who gets to poke fun?  Seriously though you said he would be Brandon Hayward and made the Robert Parish part sound like a super long shot.  Now it doesn't look to be the case.  He is more then just "playing big" because his rebounding mentality is more then just playing big.  He actively seeks out every basketball.  That mentality you can't really teach and not everyone has it.   Also his moves around the basket are developing nicely.  His off hand moves in the past few weeks have been pretty impressive considering he wasn't doing that even warlier in the year.  Now I will agree with you that he is a bit overhyped at this point.  Everyone who knows Lakers basketball knows that Derek Fisher has made the biggest impact on the team from things you just can't see in a box score.

WOW how about this...let's just celebrate having the best record in the entire Western Conference after PHX got handled by Grandpa Cassell last night.  Even if it is just for one day 

[JoMal]

...when he has nights where he goes 27 and 15 with 3 blocks does show he will only continue to get better as time progresses.  That is something to write home about.  WOW has to ride the "he sucks" train for a while because he argued so hard last year with everyone here.  Until Bynum scores 40 points in one night and grabs 40 boards he will be on him.

...when he has nights where he goes 27 and 15 with 3 blocks...

When Bynum averages those numbers then I will jump on the bandwagon.  His footwork and agility this year is light years ahead of his past.  As of now he is just playing "big", nothing more.  I know some of you like to emulate Reality and his spinning and outright misquotes, ala Skandar, but I said from day one he would be a journey man center AND at BEST he could develop into a Robert Parish type of player.  Parish was clearly not a top tier center but he was better than the average center, especially in the playoffs.  Bynum from day one reminded me of Parish and Ewing because of his length and akward athelticism. 

I don't know how many of you recognize that "big" type of akwardness/motion/movement that you see it in players, especially C's and PF's, pretty much anyone over 6' can have that attribute.  TD and Rasheed are perfect examples of that type of body, despite their EXTENSIVE skills and moves, there is something stiff/mechanical about thier movements.  Chris Webber and Shaq are perfect examples of the opposite, big men who move like small guys.  It's like you or me playing on a 7 foot rim, nothing big about our games it's just that the basket is so close you look like you are just "tossing" the balls in with little effort or skill.  Even guards are like that, TMac moves like a big man and Dwade does not.

hmmmm.

You have obviously given this allot of thought - misdirected thought - but still...

Are we blaming Bynum for something he has no control over, basically his body type? While you are pointing out some apparent lack of athleticism associated with taller players, what you really should be looking at is how has he developed as a basketball player. Big guys are going to be ackward - that is a given (with some exceptions as you have noted), but what really separates simply a "big" guy from a solid NBA player is his development as his matures. Has Bynum development much since he couldn't find the basketball court with two feet his rookie year? How about a guy like Darko Miliac? See any differences in these guys as they mature into NBA players?

The one attribute I have always noticed, again with only a few exceptions, has been that bigs in the NBA really do take about five years to figure out how their games fit into the NBA, no matter if they are required to learn the Triangle. or the Motion offense. They just do not get to the point of - let's call it average mediocrity - as fast as the smaller guards and forwards do. But it is the continuance of their development that will separate them from the average big, and as far as I can see, Bynum is on his way in that regard and you should at least accept him for doing something many of the other seven footers in the NBA stop doing, which is actually develop.     

[msc]

However Seattle shot 54% last night not because of anything Bynum would have helped with.  They were getting burned by the pick and roll mainly.  The other part was Wally being lights out in the first half.  Even with Kobe and Trevor up on him.  To say Seattle wouldn't have shot that well from outside if Bynum was there is not really that true.  I wouldn't say he's exceptional at guarding the pick and roll.

Good points in your post, westkoast.  I'm not sure we disagree that much. 

I'm glad you mentioned the pick and roll, becasue I actually think Bynum has been a big improvement in this area for the Lakers.  The high screen and roll seems to have always been our teams achillies heel.  I've yet to understand why we can't figure out how to guard one of the most fundamental plays in bball, but we haven't.  That said, I've noticed this year that Bynum is great at guarding the high screen and roll.  His wing span allows him to stick an arm out and prevent the guard from driving off the screen and giving the Laker guard being screened just enough time to recover from the switch.  Granted, Bynum is young and has a lot of room to improve on this particular defensive play, but IMO he's been better than anything we've had in years as far as a big man coming out to help on the high screen/roll.  Already better than Shaq, which isn't that hard.  So in that regard I'm kindly disagreeing with you 

[Skandery]

As of now he is just playing "big", nothing more.  I know some of you like to emulate Reality and his spinning and outright misquotes, ala Skandar, but I said from day one he would be a journey man center AND at BEST he could develop into a Robert Parish type of player.

WOW,

Sorry my friend.  I'm not going to let you out of this one that easy.  Let's take a journey back at some of your quotes  about our dear Andrew Bynum that first year.  

http://forums.phillyarena.net/index.php?topic=2565.0 -- Started by WOW

Didn't think enough of him to spell his name right.

I think back in the late 80's or early 90's the Lakers considered bringing on Dwane Causwell or Joe Barry Carrol.  Well, we've got the 00's version of those guys NOW!

Duane Causwell and Joe Barry Carroll are the first measuring sticks.  

I'm saying he SUCKS!

I watch young guys like Nene and Kaman who have some basic coordination, they will end up being jorneyman type players.  Andrew doesn't display any of that, he's very akward ala Deke without the defensive ability.

He may one day develop the offensive abilities of Olwakandi, on a good day he has some impressive moves against the likes of Duncan and DRob.  It really looked like Olwakandi turned the corner in those games but it was short lived.

He just doesn't have it.

Michael Olowokandi is the next comparison you make. And you infer that Andrew won't even become a journeyman the way Nene and Kaman will become.  

Bumped or not he does not look good.  He's got a sweet stroke at the FT line so there is a glimmer of Robert Parish HOPE.  Parish is another guy who didn't look all that smooth but had a decent NBA career.

Our first Robert Parish comparison from a free throw attempt.

I'm not saying Kaman was "good".  He looked good, my word was "solid".

You are not following what I'm posting, you're pulling a Randy/Reality on me.  I'm saying at the time I could tell what he WOULD be able to do by what he was doing on the court.  His coordination, foot work and moves were all there.  He made dumb mistakes or lost concentration many many times.  He would fake left swing right when he should have faked right swung left and vice versa.  BUT he could make those types of moves even though he was making them at the wrong time.

Bryman has NONE of that.

Follow my logic?

 

So following you're logic, you say Kaman was solid enough with basic coordination, etc. to develop into a serviceable player.  Bryman (misspelled again) has NONE.  Am I to assume that you thought Bynum couldn't even develop into a serviceable player upon first evaluation.  

When you play pick up games you can just size the guys on the court from watching two or three possestions.  That's all I'm doing and I'll probably be right.

So, would you say you've been right?

Summer league is enough for me to see if a player has talent.  Talent shows up regardless of where you're playing.  I've been doing pretty good so far, the only guy I was way off the mark so far has been Billy Owens.

I think you can add Andrew Bynum to the list.

Where did I state Bryman was a bust?  I said he sucks.  There are plenty of guys in the NBA who sucked but stayed in the league because they could serve a purpose or role.  The 5 spot is probably the best place for someone who sucks to stay in the league, i.e.  G. Ostertag, B. Benjamin, D. Causewell, JB Carrol, M. Bol, S. Bradely etc....  A bust is someone like Kwame, J. Bender, S. King, E. O'Bannon, P. Ellison, H. Minor, R. White & R. Williams.

There is a difference and IMO Bryman is gonna suck, he may be the reincarnation of Mike Shmrek.  Remember that guy who backup Kareem for years and showed some potential and flashes of brilliance but never really panned out.  In this era a guy like Mike would be a solid center.

More names thrown out there.  I hope you don't equate Robert Parish to all these guys.  Has Bynum surpassed Mike Shmrek or does he still suck?

========================

I have to apologize in that it was Oberto that you stated would be a nothing stiff ala Rasho, sorry for the misquote.  However the impression I got was that you really didn't think much of Andrew Bynum at all upon first judgment.  You keep saying over and over "...but I compared him to Robert Parish."  That only makes me think you severely, SEVERELY underestimate Parish.  Also Parish was like one of fifteen Centers you compared Bynum to, almost all 15 guys (except Parish) useless 7 foot bums.  So if it makes you feel better to continue harping "I compared Bynum to Parish and Parish was good so I am right", please continue doing so.  Just know that we all know better.    

[Laker Fan]

Well said Skander, I wish I had the time to pull all those quote and capsualize them in such a succint manner.

I haven't tooted Bynum much this season because I haven't spent much time on the board but where I have posted, allow me an I told you so for being so hyped on him last year and when all the trade rumors were flying in the off season. I was furious over the idea they would let this kid get away, I saw more than just a servicable center then, I see far more than that now.

Bynum has decent footwork, his defensive skills are improving as he mature as has been noted in his adjustments on the pick, he is being more aggressive in the post, waaay more aggressive, than last year, but his biggest improvement is rebounding, Koast point out he "seeks" out the ball, totally agree. I wish he would muscle up a littel bit so that when you need a big, wide defensive pressense in the middle, Kwame Brown is not your only option.

Bynum is being brought along slowly, I guess I am somewhat OK with that, centers usually take longer, problem is the morons in the front office re-sgned both Brown AND Mhim so really my thought is could they speed up the development process a little please? Kwame going down (hooray he was off the court, no hooray that he was hurt) gave Bynum a chance to show where he was in terms of maturity and development, both of which for a 20 year old kid that is playing in the epicenter of the most glittery team in the NBA even when they aren't competeing for a title. In this he has been very encouraging, indeed, downright exciting, he is averaging a double double and and starting to find a rhthym. I don't expect him to score a lot of points at this stage in his development, it isn't what he is out there for, he is out there learn how to play NBA ball and fit into a fairly complex offense without totally disrupting the flow the triangle requires, something Kwame could NEVER do. It is still very very early in his career, but unless I am wrong, and I don't believe I am, he has all the tools in place to have a sgnificant impact on the NBA, barring injury or a mental meltdown on his part.

There is no doubt that IMO the single biggest reason for the play of the Lakers this season is due in huge measure to Fisher's return. But to discount what Bynum is doing, how well he is progressing borders on stuborn refusal to admit you may be wrong about him after all, WOW would certainly NEVER do that!

[Reality]

Touche' MSC

When you Laker posters gang up on me i just don't know what to do.

[Reality]

Derek Smithers err Derek Fishers play has helped the Lakers this season more then Bynums say some in Lakerism.

[westkoast]

Derek Smithers err Derek Fishers play has helped the Lakers this season more then Bynums say some in Lakerism.

Yea and someone who might know a little bit more then you about basketball...Phil Jackson 

I'm shaking my head at the thought of you having a 250 gig external USB hard drive filled with photoshopped images of the Lakers.  You are like Ray Finkle meets Steve Jobs.

[WayOutWest]

WOW,

Sorry my friend.  I'm not going to let you out of this one that easy.  Let's take a journey back at some of your quotes  about our dear Andrew Bynum that first year.  

http://forums.phillyarena.net/index.php?topic=2565.0 -- Started by WOW

Didn't think enough of him to spell his name right.

Duane Causwell and Joe Barry Carroll are the first measuring sticks.  

I read the whole thread, my opinion has not changed much but my hope is definately higher in regards to Adrwe Bimun.  At the time I did not look up the stats of the guys I mentioned but I looked them up and they look comperable.  Duane was the first two years of Bynums career, and now Bynum is playing at a J.B. Carroll level, JB scored more but rebounded less.  Looking at his stats and my recollection of Carroll is probably SPOT on in regards to comparring him to Bynum.  While IMO JB sucked, keep in mind he was playing in an era that saw Kareem, Moses, Walton, Dream, Ewing, Gilmore and Parish. 

Michael Olowokandi is the next comparison you make. And you infer that Andrew won't even become a journeyman the way Nene and Kaman will become.

Our first Robert Parish comparison from a free throw attempt.

Olowokandi is not a knock, I guess you guys don't watch big men as closely as I do.  Kandi had some good games vs TD and DRob with some TERRIFIC offensive moves, moves I didn't think were possible from him, much like Bynum could develop moves that don't seem possible from him.

Like I stated back then, at the time Bynum "didn't have it" but he COULD become a journeyman and AT BEST he could have a career as good as Parish.  So far he's just putting up journeyman numbers, he's not in Parish territory.

So following you're logic, you say Kaman was solid enough with basic coordination, etc. to develop into a serviceable player.  Bryman (misspelled again) has NONE.  Am I to assume that you thought Bynum couldn't even develop into a serviceable player upon first evaluation.  

I felt, and still do, he could develope the offensive moves of Kandi man, around that time Kandi man had his best years as a Clipper, Bynum is putting up those types of numbers right now and I've seen a few Kandi like moves, which is NOT a bad thing.

So, would you say you've been right?

I think you can add Andrew Bynum to the list.

What is that Klingon saying: "Someday perhaps, but not today."  Despite all the hype and jock ridding of Bynum, his numbers are very average.  He's no Dwight, Amare or Yao, all guys who came out of the box with the ability to play and put up solid numbers.  With all the talk you think Bynum was putting up Kareem, Shaq, Moses, Dream, DRob or Ewing type numbers, again guys who came out of the box ready to play.  I will cut the kid a break and make this year his rookie year since he's around the same age as the other guys when they were rooks, with the exception of a couple, maybe that way he will look more "Dominant-like".

More names thrown out there.  I hope you don't equate Robert Parish to all these guys.  Has Bynum surpassed Mike Shmrek or does he still suck?

He's putting up numbers close to Mike when he was with the Lakers.  Had to look them up but WOW was I close in my comparrison, I amaze myself somtimes.

My hope is that Bynum could one day be as good as Parish, one of if not THE best of the non-legend centers IMO.  I hold Parish in high regard since I got to see him do alot of damage against the Lakers and Pistons.

========================

I have to apologize in that it was Oberto that you stated would be a nothing stiff ala Rasho, sorry for the misquote.  

I really glad it was just a mistake.  It's so silly the way Reality, westkoast and Lurker play the mis-quote game, only JoMal does it with any skill to get me going, when those others do it I just think they are being dumb, childish or they get so frustrated that they have to make things up.

However the impression I got was that you really didn't think much of Andrew Bynum at all upon first judgment.  You keep saying over and over "...but I compared him to Robert Parish."  That only makes me think you severely, SEVERELY underestimate Parish.  Also Parish was like one of fifteen Centers you compared Bynum to, almost all 15 guys (except Parish) useless 7 foot bums.  So if it makes you feel better to continue harping "I compared Bynum to Parish and Parish was good so I am right", please continue doing so.  Just know that we all know better.    

Re-read the posts, I think Bynum is much like those 15 or so names BUT my hope is that he COULD be as good as Parish one day.  Right now his numbers are very much "journey-man-like", so I don't think I'm that far off.