The Mitchell Report

[Skandery]

I have to agree with Barkely abotu the whole "hallowed" record, who gives a rat arse about baseball records other than baseball fans.

I'm not a Baseball fan at all but even I'll concede the HR record is the one everyone cares about and knows. 

Think about it, how many people who are not pro basketball fans can name the player with the all time scoring record.  What do you wanna bet Michael Jordan gets named before Abdul-Jabbar.   

[Skandery]

Player X, however, is a contemporary of these athletes, and he's eventually enshrined.  Years later, it's discovered Player X bought/used steroids or HGH ... what do you do?

Unless the rules change, there's nothing to do.

That's why Tim says you have a wing of the Hall of Fame at Cooperstown for every player in the 90s and 00s and put every player voted in on that wing --- The Steroids Era.  His justification for the guys in there who never did the stuff is they probably knew someone who did. 

 

[ziggy]

Player X, however, is a contemporary of these athletes, and he's eventually enshrined.  Years later, it's discovered Player X bought/used steroids or HGH ... what do you do?

Unless the rules change, there's nothing to do.

That's why Tim says you have a wing of the Hall of Fame at Cooperstown for every player in the 90s and 00s and put every player voted in on that wing --- The Steroids Era.  His justification for the guys in there who never did the stuff is they probably knew someone who did. 

Welcome aboard Senator McCarthy!  Glad to have another poster on the board.

[Skandery]

So your solution then, Secretary-General Ziggy?

[ziggy]

So your solution then, Secretary-General Ziggy?

You know I love scrapping with you Skander.  It makes life fun.

First I am operating under the impression that a majority of players did juice.  Don't know all of who did and who didn't, just that at least more than 1/2 did.  Now it is not up to me to vote so my opinion and approach is completely irrelevant to anything, but I don't feel compelled to be fair, and just either.  I can be a pompus little pipsquek if I want to, and I can be arbitrary, and maybe even a little mean spirited.  So can you.  I also recognize that if I post it then I open myself up to people whacking on me, and making smart ass comments, just like I do to you.

The thing I hate the most is the players who got the glory all the while knowing that they were jucing, but acted like they were without peer.  I just find that despicable, so I would love to see those guys squirm.  The best examples are Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin,  Shawn Merriman, Floyd Landis, and at some point I think Lance Armstrong will get causght up to.  Now the baseball guys weren't "breaking the rules", though technically you could say they were breaking the law, but the law argument taken to it's logical conclusion is excessive.  I break the law by speeding regularly, as do a lot of people.  We get caught we pay for it, if we don't, then lets not waste our time chasing boogy men.  So to retroactively punishing players for things that weren't against the rules I think is too much, but I can happily take pleasure in seeing them squirm for a long time about it.

So here is how I handle it.

First my approach is who dominated their respective eras.  I wouldn't just look at lifetime totals, but I would look at who were the dominate players of their era, basing this on Bill James Black Ink test.  You lead the league in important categories then you are a dominant player, do it often enough and you get in.  This is a reasonable way to weed out the good players who padded their career stats by being juiced.  The best example is Palmerio.  He has a very low Black Ink score.  It would take a lot for me to consider him for the hall.  The fact that he lied in front of Congress in the most egregious way possible makes it easy to ignore him.  Another good example here is Gary Sheffield.  He used, it is common knowledge, and he will have great career stats, but he was lower than Palmerio in Black Ink.  He is out.

I would then consider Hall of Fame monitor score for those who don't meet the black ink test.  This is a measure of great seasons.  If a player is good with this score, but his black ink is low then it would be hard to justify a vote for him.  Guys that I would let in would be guys like Larry Walker, Jeff Bagwell, Roberto Alomar.  Guys that would be excluded would be guys like Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Juan Gonzalez.  I suspect that all of those guys with the possible exception of Alomar used, but the last 3 were good  offensive players in a great offensive era, so they are out.

Then I would consider the Gray Ink test, for the number of times in the top 10, but I would consider this in the context of other HoF players and expect players to exceed the average Hall member.  Guys I would vote in here are Frank Thomas, and Vlad Guerrero.

I would then consider HoF Standards, which is more of a careers total measurement, but I would evaulate those players based upon their status of the other 3 scores.  A couple of examples would be Biggio and Piazza.

If I was to vote I would not vote for those who I know or believe to have cheated in the first few elections, even if they have the "qualifications".  I would wait till the 15th year for Bonds.  He gets in, but for 15 years he gets hounded by the media, asked the same questions over and over.  I would do the same for Clemens.  If Clemens had done an Andy Pettitte or Fernando Vina and just admitted to it I would probably let him in sooner, but if he wants to be an arrogant f*#k about it, after all the glory, then let him squirm and answer the same tough questions over and over and over and over and over and over.  I would wait for 15 years for McGwire as well.  He has had his chance to just admit to it, and if he had I could give the guy a pass sooner, BUT HE DIDN'T.

Now Griffey, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Jeter, Ricky Henderson, Pujols, A Rod, Randy Johnson, Pedro, all get in, right away, unless some good info comes out before they get elected.  Once you get elected tough tiddlywinks. The nest tier of players I spoke about above (Piazza, Alomar, Thomas et al) I let them in, but they have to wait some time before they do.  The greatest "CHEATERS" (Clemens, Bonds, McGwire et al) wait until their last year of eligibility, unless like Bonds they act like spoiled children about not getting in the first ballot, and then I let them slip to the veterans committee.

I don't put them in a separate wing, and I don't tar players who we have no evidence cheated.  If Greg Maddux cheated handle him differently, but he was a dominate player and get eventually gets in.  If we have no evidence he cheated then we don't assume that he did.  We also do not make Greg Maddux "pay" because he may or may not have seen or heard something.  It wasn't his job to police it.

[JoMal]

The Senator McCarthy analogy is closer to reality here.

First, you expose an average player here to have used steroids at some point in his past, based on the testimony of this Met trainer. Let's use FP Santangelo as an example.  FP claims he used steroids twice - both times to help heal a severe injury that, because of his negligible Major League qualities, could have ended his dream, which was to continue to play baseball and feed his family. At the time, he knew of no other way to do the latter.

So he takes steroids and it works both times and he continues to play ball for a few more years. But he stops once the injury is healed, so he is not a scheduled longtime user, like Bonds, Sosa, or Giambi. FP then gets called before Mitchell, but declines to answer any questions, which essentially are - Who supplies the steroids and who else can you name as being steroid users. And if you don't answer, this will be revealed and you might possibly suffer other consequences.

So back goes FP to that time when he had to decide what his future may be like. With steroids, he said he had to live with the deception - hiding the truth from even his kids, while voicing anti-steroid rhetoric in media forums - and yet feeling like a hypocrit for doing it. So when the truth comes out, he comes completely clean about his using steroids in the past and explains why he panicked at the time.

Now, Mitchell wants him to name names or else, putting him right back into a panick mode again, having to decide what his future might be like. Having already done that, however, FP just admits it publically and takes it to various talk shows where the fans can call in and voice how they feel - at times very bluntly, while FP listens. And he has not, to my knowledge, mentioned anyone else in the process.

Right or wrong in that scenario, he probably already knows he can live with himself by NOT being a fink at this point, where he felt nothing but guilt and hypocracy before by his use of the band substances.  

[ziggy]

The Senator McCarthy analogy is closer to reality here.

First, you expose an average player here to have used steroids at some point in his past, based on the testimony of this Met trainer. Let's use FP Santangelo as an example.  FP claims he used steroids twice - both times to help heal a severe injury that, because of his negligible Major League qualities, could have ended his dream, which was to continue to play baseball and feed his family. At the time, he knew of no other way to do the latter.

So he takes steroids and it works both times and he continues to play ball for a few more years. But he stops once the injury is healed, so he is not a scheduled longtime user, like Bonds, Sosa, or Giambi. FP then gets called before Mitchell, but declines to answer any questions, which essentially are - Who supplies the steroids and who else can you name as being steroid users. And if you don't answer, this will be revealed and you might possibly suffer other consequences.

So back goes FP to that time when he had to decide what his future may be like. With steroids, he said he had to live with the deception - hiding the truth from even his kids, while voicing anti-steroid rhetoric in media forums - and yet feeling like a hypocrit for doing it. So when the truth comes out, he comes completely clean about his using steroids in the past and explains why he panicked at the time.

Now, Mitchell wants him to name names or else, putting him right back into a panick mode again, having to decide what his future might be like. Having already done that, however, FP just admits it publically and takes it to various talk shows where the fans can call in and voice how they feel - at times very bluntly, while FP listens. And he has not, to my knowledge, mentioned anyone else in the process.

Right or wrong in that scenario, he probably already knows he can live with himself by NOT being a fink at this point, where he felt nothing but guilt and hypocracy before by his use of the band substances.  

Listen I am with the guys about not being a snitch about the whole thing.  I hold no malice towards players like FP Santangelo.  Take the beating for a few days and move on.

I would love one great player who hasn't yet been tarred, like say Frank Thomas, to just come out and admit it.  I would have a great deal more respect for that, than guys coming clean after they get exposed.  I hope someone actually does it.

[westkoast]

Clemens just put out some blurbs for the media today FEVERISHLY denying any use of steroids.  Do you guys think it is possible that maybe this trainer had a bone to pick with some of the people he named?

Also...Jose Conseco needs to STFU already.  I am so tired of him.

[ziggy]

Clemens just put out some blurbs for the media today FEVERISHLY denying any use of steroids.  Do you guys think it is possible that maybe this trainer had a bone to pick with some of the people he named?

Also...Jose Conseco needs to STFU already.  I am so tired of him.

The trainer was arrested, and he got a lighter sentence for cooperating.  He has no reason to lie about Clemens, while at the same telling the truth about Pettitte.  As far as I understand it they have his testimony, and also some other physical evidence like canceled checks, credit card receipts from Roger Clemens.

[westkoast]

Clemens just put out some blurbs for the media today FEVERISHLY denying any use of steroids.  Do you guys think it is possible that maybe this trainer had a bone to pick with some of the people he named?

Also...Jose Conseco needs to STFU already.  I am so tired of him.

The trainer was arrested, and he got a lighter sentence for cooperating.  He has no reason to lie about Clemens, while at the same telling the truth about Pettitte.  As far as I understand it they have his testimony, and also some other physical evidence like canceled checks, credit card receipts from Roger Clemens.

I don't want to make it sound like I believe Roger Clemens even though like he said he has been a pretty good guy in his 20 years in public life.  I am just wondering why someone would come out like Roger did denying it like he did and then offered to do a press conference to answer any questions.  Just sounds like if you were guilty of doing it you'd either try to ignore it, just say No I didn't and keep it moving, or fess up.  Not try to lie to the people even more.

[Joe Vancil]

My favorite take on this whole thing comes from Pete Rose.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22318540/

Here's why it's my favorite take:

Rose finished with 4,256 hits, breaking Ty Cobb?s career record.

And if steroids were prevalent in his day?

?I would have got 5,000 hits,? he said.

Translation:  "If there had been steroids in my day, I'd have cheated." 

Kind of paints a clear picture of the man, doesn't it? 

[Lurker]

My favorite take on this whole thing comes from Pete Rose.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22318540/

Here's why it's my favorite take:

Rose finished with 4,256 hits, breaking Ty Cobb?s career record.

And if steroids were prevalent in his day?

?I would have got 5,000 hits,? he said.

Translation:  "If there had been steroids in my day, I'd have cheated." 

Kind of paints a clear picture of the man, doesn't it? 

What would you expect from a gambler that bets on his own team when he KNOWS it is against the rules.

But IMO it doesn't take away from the fact that he was the best contact hitter I have ever seen.  His foibles didn't enhance his performance.  A big difference.

[Reality]

Pete Rose I absolutely believe used a corked/puttied enhanced bat.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2263783

[ziggy]

Clemens just put out some blurbs for the media today FEVERISHLY denying any use of steroids.  Do you guys think it is possible that maybe this trainer had a bone to pick with some of the people he named?

Also...Jose Conseco needs to STFU already.  I am so tired of him.

The trainer was arrested, and he got a lighter sentence for cooperating.  He has no reason to lie about Clemens, while at the same telling the truth about Pettitte.  As far as I understand it they have his testimony, and also some other physical evidence like canceled checks, credit card receipts from Roger Clemens.

I don't want to make it sound like I believe Roger Clemens even though like he said he has been a pretty good guy in his 20 years in public life.  I am just wondering why someone would come out like Roger did denying it like he did and then offered to do a press conference to answer any questions.  Just sounds like if you were guilty of doing it you'd either try to ignore it, just say No I didn't and keep it moving, or fess up.  Not try to lie to the people even more.

Westkoast how many times did Marion Jones lie?  How many times did Floyd Landis?  How many times has Barry Bonds?  Pettitte, Roberts, Vina all publicly claimed previously that they never used, and now they say they did.  Roger can say whatever he wants, but just because he says it doesn't me it has any validity.

[westkoast]

Clemens just put out some blurbs for the media today FEVERISHLY denying any use of steroids.  Do you guys think it is possible that maybe this trainer had a bone to pick with some of the people he named?

Also...Jose Conseco needs to STFU already.  I am so tired of him.

The trainer was arrested, and he got a lighter sentence for cooperating.  He has no reason to lie about Clemens, while at the same telling the truth about Pettitte.  As far as I understand it they have his testimony, and also some other physical evidence like canceled checks, credit card receipts from Roger Clemens.

I don't want to make it sound like I believe Roger Clemens even though like he said he has been a pretty good guy in his 20 years in public life.  I am just wondering why someone would come out like Roger did denying it like he did and then offered to do a press conference to answer any questions.  Just sounds like if you were guilty of doing it you'd either try to ignore it, just say No I didn't and keep it moving, or fess up.  Not try to lie to the people even more.

Westkoast how many times did Marion Jones lie?  How many times did Floyd Landis?  How many times has Barry Bonds?  Pettitte, Roberts, Vina all publicly claimed previously that they never used, and now they say they did.  Roger can say whatever he wants, but just because he says it doesn't me it has any validity.

Yea I know but Bonds answers have been 'no I didn't take steroids'  Clemens on the other hand has issued statements himself, through his lawyer, and is going to hold a press conference to answer any questions about it.  Just seems like he is digging himself a huge hole.