Kirilenko happy

[westkoast]

'Koast, I thought we'd evolved passed mere boxscore regurgitation ever since you called Reality on it when he was pointing out Kobe's bad games. 

It sure is different when you see Kobe go 7-24 as opposed to just seeing the lowlights and/or reading it in the boxscore.  You know because, well I'll let you explain.

Kobe shooting 7 for 24 doesn't prove he didn't move the ball.  It proves he didn't shoot well but doesn't prove he had a poor game.  You can still score 28 points (the current highest average per game in the NBA)   shooting 7 for 24. That is why you were called out on it.  Smarten up Reality.

Saying that a player has poor offensive games then showing 3 points 0 assists and 2 turn overs proves just that.  He had a poor offensive game.

(btw my replies are on the other page, this response jumped so go to page 3 to see em Skander/ted)

[Ted]

And we're back to "running the offense through" somebody. You say Utah should "run the offense" through Deron and Boozer. Skander and Ziggy offer really quite good statistical proof that the Utah offense performs A LOT better when Kirilenko is involved. You ignore it and say AK isn't a point forward and shouldn't have the "offense run through him." I don't think I've ever seen a person win an argument by stubbornly ignoring solid evidence and bludgeoning a fairly baseless point to death, but you, sir, have done it.

I yield.

I just can't take anymore.

Wait, I guess I can leave a couple of parting shots.

Neither Skander nor I have said AK is a ball handler or even a "play maker." To be considered a point forward, I think you must be an excellent ball handler. I would say AK is average for his size.

In fact, we have over and over again clearly stated that he is a facilitator in the Jazz offense. He is usually the second or third player to touch the ball on an average Jazz possession. A point forward brings the ball across half court and starts the offensive play. AK plays that role MAYBE once or twice a game. I do not (and I believe Skander does not) consider AK a point forward.

Westkoast, you do not have to be a point forward in AK's position to be a vital, non-primary-scorer part of an offensive scheme.

[Reality]

'Koast, I thought we'd evolved passed mere boxscore regurgitation ever since you called Reality on it when he was pointing out Kobe's bad games. 

It sure is different when you see Kobe go 7-24 as opposed to just seeing the lowlights and/or reading it in the boxscore.  You know because, well I'll let you explain.

Kobe shooting 7 for 24 doesn't prove he didn't move the ball.  It proves he didn't shoot well but doesn't prove he had a poor game.  You can still score 28 points (the current highest average per game in the NBA)   shooting 7 for 24. That is why you were called out on it.  Smarten up Reality.

  I guess i've missed those games where Kobe went 7-24 and the Lakers did well.
While in concept, a player can go 7-24 and still have a good game, it certainly has not been the case with Kobester and the Lakers.

[Skandery]

I just can't take anymore.

Ted, I think we're just gluttons for punishment.  I feel the need to summarize 

S + T :  Good thing Kirilenko is more involved this year, they're running that pattern offense through him and Utah's offense is looking good.

wk:  Kirilenko SUCKS offensively, he is on the court for one thing defense, any scraps he gets he should be lucky to get.

S + Z :  Actually he doesn't suck and this mountain of statistics bear the fact that when AK is involved, Utah's offense runs more efficiently

wk:  Kirilenko SUCKS.  Utah should go to Booz and Deron ONLY!!  They can do everything AK can, ONLY BETTER!

S + T :  Boozer and Deron are pretty good but observation and analysis suggest Kirilenko helping those two facilitate the offense really opens things up for Utah.

wk:  Kirilenko facilitates crap.  He's not Scottie Pippen!  Don't you guys know he SUCKS offensively.

S:  Actually he does facilitate it and his assist numbers bear that fact out.  This is what an assist means.

Z:  <posts journalist commenting on Kirilenko offensive contribution>

wk:  I feel sorry for you guys that you think Kirilenko is your SAVIOR.  Because he SUCKS. 

S + T + Z:  But . . . But . . . <all simultaneously jump off a cliff>

[Lurker]

I want to address the AK/Worthy comparison some more.  Since koast just wanted to look at numbers.

In 88/89 Worthy was the number one option on the Lakers.  It was Kareem's last year and Worthy took almost double the shot attempts of Kareem.  He also took almost 100 shots more than the second player, Byron Scott.  Worthy scored 1.29 points per shot attempt (1,657 pts on 1,282 fga).  He also had 3.6 assists and 6.0 rebounds.

In 05/06 AK was 3rd on the team in shot attempts (would have been 4th if Boozer wasn't injured - Boozer avg more attempts per game).  AK avg 1.44 pts per shot attempt...mostly by being a better 3 pt shooter and getting to the FT line more often.  And that is interesting...AK gets more FT attempts than Worthy even though Worthy is the top option for his team.  AK had 4.3 assts and 8.0 reb.

To continue:
Worthy
89/90 1,298 FGA (150 more than Magic who was second) 1,685 pts (1.30 per fga) 3.6 assts 6.0 reb
90/91 1,455 FGA (404 more than Scott who was second) 1,670 pts (1.15 per fga) 3.5 assts 4.6 reb

AK
06/07 418 FGA (6th on team - Williams/Okur/Boozer all over 1,000) 584 pts (1.40 per fga) 2.9 assts  4.7 reb
07/08 181 FGA (4th on team - Boozer 404, Williams 340, Okur 228) 237 pts (1.31 per fga) 5.6 assts  6.3 reb

Not to mention that the late 80s had a faster paced game so there were more chances to grab rebounds and make assts.  Or to put their production over 3 years in more relative terms:

Worthy had 551 assts of a team total 6,605 or 12.88% of the assists.  He also had 1,323 rebounds of the team's 10,781 or 12.27%

AK had 629 assts of the team's 4,396 (14.31%) and 1,026 rebs of the team's 7,901 (12.99%).


And I didn't even address the steals and blocks.  

[Ted]

Well the Jazz lost by 5 at Phoenix last night . . . at first I was really PO'd by missed free throws and late turnovers. But I saw signs of them getting out of their funk. They still weren't moving the ball around like they were before the losing streak, and were relying on Boozer to make fall aways far too much.

But one thing has become clear to me. Our two best scorers are our two worst defenders. Deron has been unable to keep his man from going to lane freely. And Boozer is just plain slow to rotate. Anyway, we make a few more free throws, get two more stops, and take care of the ball a little better and we would have one on their court.

[Skandery]

Our two best scorers are our two worst defenders.

Carlos Boozer is a god-awful defender.

Deron isn't that bad but he has a horrible habit of guarding his man too closely, against speed demons (like Nash) he'll get burned.

[westkoast]

I want to address the AK/Worthy comparison some more.  Since koast just wanted to look at numbers.

In 88/89 Worthy was the number one option on the Lakers.  It was Kareem's last year and Worthy took almost double the shot attempts of Kareem.  He also took almost 100 shots more than the second player, Byron Scott.  Worthy scored 1.29 points per shot attempt (1,657 pts on 1,282 fga).  He also had 3.6 assists and 6.0 rebounds.

In 05/06 AK was 3rd on the team in shot attempts (would have been 4th if Boozer wasn't injured - Boozer avg more attempts per game).  AK avg 1.44 pts per shot attempt...mostly by being a better 3 pt shooter and getting to the FT line more often.  And that is interesting...AK gets more FT attempts than Worthy even though Worthy is the top option for his team.  AK had 4.3 assts and 8.0 reb.

To continue:
Worthy
89/90 1,298 FGA (150 more than Magic who was second) 1,685 pts (1.30 per fga) 3.6 assts 6.0 reb
90/91 1,455 FGA (404 more than Scott who was second) 1,670 pts (1.15 per fga) 3.5 assts 4.6 reb

AK
06/07 418 FGA (6th on team - Williams/Okur/Boozer all over 1,000) 584 pts (1.40 per fga) 2.9 assts  4.7 reb
07/08 181 FGA (4th on team - Boozer 404, Williams 340, Okur 228) 237 pts (1.31 per fga) 5.6 assts  6.3 reb

Not to mention that the late 80s had a faster paced game so there were more chances to grab rebounds and make assts.  Or to put their production over 3 years in more relative terms:

Worthy had 551 assts of a team total 6,605 or 12.88% of the assists.  He also had 1,323 rebounds of the team's 10,781 or 12.27%

AK had 629 assts of the team's 4,396 (14.31%) and 1,026 rebs of the team's 7,901 (12.99%).


And I didn't even address the steals and blocks. 

Lurker you are comparing an end of his career James Worthy to AK in the height of his.  He left the league in 91-92.   James Worthy is a HOF worthy player.  I don't think the same can be said for AK.

And I don't think the 1980s games are any faster then the games now.  At all.  The speed and amount of points teams score now is a huge leap from the average then.  If anyone has stats on that i'd love to see them because I don't remember hearing about a majority of the teams in the league scoring over 100 points each game.

But let's keep this thread up and going.  I missed the PHX game last night.  My buddy has a box that gives him every channel under the sun so he gets all the NBA games but I did not get a chance to go over to his house like planned.

Was Boozer that bad in the rotation department last year?  I don't remember him being all that bad.  Not a great defender in the post but surely not as bad as you are making em.

[Lurker]

Definately higher scoring in the late 80s...

88/89  24 of 25 teams average over 100 per game and 9 teams over 110 points.
89/90  26 of 27 over 100 and 8 over 110.
90/91  24 of 27 over 100 and 7 over 110

05/06   5 of 30 over 100 and NONE over 110
06/07   9 of 30 over 100 and 1 over 110 (Suns at 110.2)
07/08  12 of 30 over 100 and NONE over 110 (Suns at 110.0)

Obviously higher scoring in the late 80s and early 90s.


And it wasn't just "better" shooting but a faster pace.

88/89  Average FGA per team 7,297  FTA 2,363
06/07  Average FGA per team 6,535  FTA 2,138

More FGA thus more chance for both rebounds and assists as well as scoring.  And when broken down to points per FGA the pace doesn't matter.  The figures show that Worthy wasn't effecient offensively as AK is.

Also I'm not sure how seasons 7/8/9 of Worthy's 12 year career are on the downswing.  Those 3 years are his highest scoring average, rebounding 2 of his top 4 years, and near the top in assists.   But to make you happier...

Worthy:
85/86 (year 4)  1,500 points on 1,086 fga (1.38 pts per fga)  5.2 reb  2.7 assts
86/87 (year 5)  1,594 points on 1,207 fga (1.32 pts per fga)  5.7 reb  2.8 assts

[Lurker]

Also Worthy was born in 1961 so he was 27 in 1988.  Thus those original numbers were from his prime.

[Ted]

Carlos has a very bad habit of hanging out way too long on the guard in a pick and roll. That and he is easy to beat off the ball. Meaning, when his man makes a cut, Booz is almost always a step behind. If he stays with his man, the Jazz don't have the rotation problems they did last night.

As for Deron, Devin Harris made him look silly on D. I thought Deron was actually pretty good against Tony Parker; but Nash completely had his way with him.

[Reality]

'Koast, I thought we'd evolved passed mere boxscore regurgitation ever since you called Reality on it when he was pointing out Kobe's bad games. 

It sure is different when you see Kobe go 7-24 as opposed to just seeing the lowlights and/or reading it in the boxscore.  You know because, well I'll let you explain.

Kobe shooting 7 for 24 doesn't prove he didn't move the ball.  It proves he didn't shoot well but doesn't prove he had a poor game.  You can still score 28 points (the current highest average per game in the NBA)   shooting 7 for 24. That is why you were called out on it.  Smarten up Reality.

Saying that a player has poor offensive games then showing 3 points 0 assists and 2 turn overs proves just that.  He had a poor offensive game.

(btw my replies are on the other page, this response jumped so go to page 3 to see em Skander/ted)

Well he wasn't 7-24 but he was one shot away from it.
Could you call me out and Smarten me up regarding last nights Kobsters 6-23 performance vs Golden State.
I saw the entire 2nd half, and i read the boxscore.  I definitely saw him ballhog and have horrible shot selection, especially in the last half of the 4th. 

[Skandery]

Reality, you are NOT hijacking this thread about the Jazz and turning it into Kobe talk . . . dangit. 

[Reality]

Reality, you are NOT hijacking this thread about the Jazz and turning it into Kobe talk . . . dangit. 

I was gonna say, I'm not sure if AK-47 cares that Kobe went 6-23 and bombed L.A.s chances.

[JoMal]

I just can't take anymore.

Ted, I think we're just gluttons for punishment.  I feel the need to summarize 

S + T :  Good thing Kirilenko is more involved this year, they're running that pattern offense through him and Utah's offense is looking good.

wk:  Kirilenko SUCKS offensively, he is on the court for one thing defense, any scraps he gets he should be lucky to get.

S + Z :  Actually he doesn't suck and this mountain of statistics bear the fact that when AK is involved, Utah's offense runs more efficiently

wk:  Kirilenko SUCKS.  Utah should go to Booz and Deron ONLY!!  They can do everything AK can, ONLY BETTER!

S + T :  Boozer and Deron are pretty good but observation and analysis suggest Kirilenko helping those two facilitate the offense really opens things up for Utah.

wk:  Kirilenko facilitates crap.  He's not Scottie Pippen!  Don't you guys know he SUCKS offensively.

S:  Actually he does facilitate it and his assist numbers bear that fact out.  This is what an assist means.

Z:  <posts journalist commenting on Kirilenko offensive contribution>

wk:  I feel sorry for you guys that you think Kirilenko is your SAVIOR.  Because he SUCKS. 

S + T + Z:  But . . . But . . . <all simultaneously jump off a cliff>

I'm sorry, Skandery, but I could not stop laughing at this. You are making westkoast out to be a fifteen year old msnbc wannabe and I could not get beyond that in your summary.