OT: God's Warriors

[WayOutWest]

It is force and the willingness to use it that determines borders.  No one is going to save Tibetans from China, or the Kurds from the Iranians and Turks.  Legal standing my butt!

LOL!  Cut right to the chase why don't you!!!!  I agree 100%, who ever wrote "the pen is mighter than the sword" must NOT of lived in an occupied territory!

[rickortreat]

Mao said political power flows from the barrel of a gun.  He was an ass and killed millions of Chinese with his stupid, short-sighted plans.  But he understood politics very well!

[Lurker]

Gotta call you on this one, Skander.

Islam looks at the Jews as being cast away from God because of their rebellion against him.  Why should they be given this land, this "inheritance," when they've essentially been "cut off" from it?  Similarly, the Christian still considers the part of Revelation which points to the nation of Israel coming back as a nation.  Ideologically, the two are at odds.

(As for the Christian view of the "Rapture," the view you represent leaves out the Great Tribulation, leaves out the Millinieual Reign of Christ, and the Great White Throne judgment, all of which occur before the Lake of Fire.)

Simple relgious difference could very easily cause the same conflict that we're seeing anyway.  Or, perhaps, it DID cause it, and the flames were just fanned by those who sought to gain something.  Either way, same result.

But Joe who's interpretation of Islam reports that?  Was it directly from Allah or as written by men who claim Allah spoke to them?  This is the entire problem with organized religion...no one can prove exactly what God said.  All "writings" are by men who claim that God spoke to them. 

But what where the true motives of those men?  Power? Wealth? Revenge?

[Skandery]

Gotta call you on this one, Skander.

Call away

Islam looks at the Jews as being cast away from God because of their rebellion against him.  Why should they be given this land, this "inheritance," when they've essentially been "cut off" from it?  Similarly, the Christian still considers the part of Revelation which points to the nation of Israel coming back as a nation.  Ideologically, the two are at odds.

Them being cast away from the land God gave them when Moses parted the Red Sea for their betrayal is a simple historical story within the teachings of Islam.  Now sure Christian Zionist will amplify the part you describe in Revelation to forge an alliance with the State of Israel against the Arabs but it would just be a Religious excuse to take one side against the other.  So while one will say this is one "ideological" difference between Chrisitians and Muslims--the conflict being waged is between Jews and Muslims.  Are you saying Christians will forever be the 3rd party instigators and the accelerants of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?

(As for the Christian view of the "Rapture," the view you represent leaves out the Great Tribulation, leaves out the Millinieual Reign of Christ, and the Great White Throne judgment, all of which occur before the Lake of Fire.)

I don't know the details, I'm not Christian.  Just answer a simple question.  Can you tell me what happens to the Jew that doesn't accept Jesus into his heart as the Messiah when all is said and done?  That's really the point I was trying to make.

Simple relgious difference could very easily cause the same conflict that we're seeing anyway.  Or, perhaps, it DID cause it, and the flames were just fanned by those who sought to gain something.  Either way, same result.

Then why aren't the Jews inhabiting the 22 other Arab countries in constant conflict with the Muslims.  The "religious" differences are there all the same.  Why is it the bloodiest and most constant in Israel.  The Israeli armed forces and means of security, bolstered by billions of dollars from the U.S., are exponentially greater than that of any other Arab country, why is the conflict worst there than anywhere else.  If simple "religious" difference between Muslim and Jew is enough to start a conflict of this magnitude, why did the Jewish Holocaust happen in a predominately Christian-Protestant state.  

I disagree, wholeheartedly.  Religious difference did not start the conflict, nor is it the main reason the conflict has continued non-stop.  No I'm afraid the Palestinians are blowing themselves up simply because they want their homes back not because they think Jews are ecclesiastically in the wrong.    

[Skandery]

The Jews were as responsible for killing Christ as they were for the sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

I'm confused.  The "Passion" story from the Bible is wrong?  Did Pilate not put Jesus up against a murderer and say to the Jewish priests which one do you want me to release?  Have Mel Gibson and a bunch of other Christians lied to me on this . . . WOW?

[Skandery]

Who and what is the United Nations that it gets to decide anything?  Much less the World (sic) Court.  War is what draws the lines on the ground, always has and probably always will.  The UN has no teeth, because it depends on Nations to support it with military power.  It's a bunch of crap, because it's hypocritical- the Tibetans are an occupied people in their own land, as are many tribal nations in Russia.

California doesn't belong to Spain or Mexico, even though it once did.  According to the Catholic Chuch, it should belong to Portugal!

Well, the UN isn't going to go to war with the US to have them return California to Mexico!  And as much as they moan and scream, they're not about to assemble an army to take Palestinian land back from Israeli control!

The UN is filled with sanctimonious whores who appoint the head of the human rights commission to someone from the Sudan.  What they say means nothing, and their legal standing only matters to those who like the rulings they bring out.

What would happen if Israel decided to declare war on Palestine (or maybe just Gaza) and drive the indigenous people out?  Do you really think those pussy Europeans would send a force to protect the Gazans?  How about the Russians, or the Chinese?   

It is force and the willingness to use it that determines borders.  No one is going to save Tibetans from China, or the Kurds from the Iranians and Turks.  Legal standing my butt!

That's right Rick-o!! Force and the willingness to use it.  Might Makes Right!!  Justice and Politics at the end of a Barrel!!  Kill them all and take their land!!  Woohoo

Truly those are great tenants you adhere to, Rick.  I applaud you!

[WayOutWest]

I'm confused.  The "Passion" story from the Bible is wrong?  Did Pilate not put Jesus up against a murderer and say to the Jewish priests which one do you want me to release?  Have Mel Gibson and a bunch of other Christians lied to me on this . . . WOW?

The Jews were not reponsible for the death of Jesus, his death was for the salvation of Gods children.  Man was permenantly serperated from God, only through Jesus Christ could the unworthy find their way back to God.  Jesus's path was a done deal, nothing anyone could do to change it.  So in a matter of speaking, everyone was reponsible for his death.  Do you really think there is anything man can do that is against God's will?  Jesus was a gift and only thorugh God's grace was Jesus allowed to sacrafice for the sake of all sinners.

[WayOutWest]

That's right Rick-o!! Force and the willingness to use it.  Might Makes Right!!  Justice and Politics at the end of a Barrel!!  Kill them all and take their land!!  Woohoo

Like it or not, that is the way the world is and always has been. 

Truly those are great tenants you adhere to, Rick.  I applaud you!

Those are tennants you adhere too as well Skandy, unless you become the leader of a world power and change it we ALL are forced to adhere to that fact of life on this Earth.  You can make the choice to not agree or condone that type of behavior but we all have to adhere to it becuase we have as much control over that was we do over the sun.

[WayOutWest]

Them being cast away from the land God gave them when Moses parted the Red Sea for their betrayal is a simple historical story within the teachings of Islam.  Now sure Christian Zionist will amplify the part you describe in Revelation to forge an alliance with the State of Israel against the Arabs but it would just be a Religious excuse to take one side against the other.  So while one will say this is one "ideological" difference between Chrisitians and Muslims--the conflict being waged is between Jews and Muslims.  Are you saying Christians will forever be the 3rd party instigators and the accelerants of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?

What do you mean they were cast away?  I don't think Christians are a 3rd party but the land of Isreal is crucial to the Jews, they were promised that land over and over again in the Bible by God.  Christians are not supposed to pursue anything other than a relationship with thier God, their only promise is salvation.  One thing about Isreal that Christians are interested in is the restoration of a temple as a signal of the comming of the messiah.  Unfortunately a very important mosque sits on that site so it's unlikely that's going to happen without a major war, which of course would tie into the prophecies of the bible.

I don't know the details, I'm not Christian.  Just answer a simple question.  Can you tell me what happens to the Jew that doesn't accept Jesus into his heart as the Messiah when all is said and done?  That's really the point I was trying to make.

The same thing that happens to everyone else, including Christians.

Then why aren't the Jews inhabiting the 22 other Arab countries in constant conflict with the Muslims.  The "religious" differences are there all the same.  Why is it the bloodiest and most constant in Israel.  The Israeli armed forces and means of security, bolstered by billions of dollars from the U.S., are exponentially greater than that of any other Arab country, why is the conflict worst there than anywhere else.  If simple "religious" difference between Muslim and Jew is enough to start a conflict of this magnitude, why did the Jewish Holocaust happen in a predominately Christian-Protestant state.

 

The reason Isreal is so bloody is becuase Jews control it and Arabs can't stand it.

I disagree, wholeheartedly.  Religious difference did not start the conflict, nor is it the main reason the conflict has continued non-stop.  No I'm afraid the Palestinians are blowing themselves up simply because they want their homes back not because they think Jews are ecclesiastically in the wrong.    

IMO it is more of which relegion is in control of Isreal.

[Skandery]

What do you mean they were cast away?

Before the Zionist movement at the turn of the 20th century, there was an extremely small population of Jews in Palestine.  For the bulk of the last 2 millenia this has been the case, Palestine inhabited by Arabs.  Why did the Jews leave the this land to begin with?  If God promised this land to them, why did they ever leave?   

I don't think Christians are a 3rd party but the land of Isreal is crucial to the Jews, they were promised that land over and over again in the Bible by God.  Christians are not supposed to pursue anything other than a relationship with thier God, their only promise is salvation.  One thing about Isreal that Christians are interested in is the restoration of a temple as a signal of the comming of the messiah.  Unfortunately a very important mosque sits on that site so it's unlikely that's going to happen without a major war, which of course would tie into the prophecies of the bible.

So if Christians believe the Bible promises this land to the Jews over and over and over and over, is it their God-given duty to make sure Jews occupy this land for the rest of time.  And if so, doesn't this make them a 3rd party accomplice to the conflict.  So you think this conflict is part of a major war prophecied in the Bible--do you think some Christians are fanatical enough to fan the flames of this conflict to hasten the prophecy?

The same thing that happens to everyone else, including Christians.

Thanks . . . that's all I was looking for.  These chosen people of God who have been promised this holy land are really going to end up right alongside everyone else who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ according to Christians.  We'll just put that aside for now, while we get rid of those annoying Muslims and their unfortunately placed Mosques.

The reason Isreal is so bloody is becuase Jews control it and Arabs can't stand it.

Jews control Israel but are forbidden to pray on the Temple Mount. . . hmmmm.  No, Israel is bloody because Muslim, Jewish, and Christian Fundamentalist Fanatics fan the flames of Religious differences and holy prophecy to control property, make money, and acquire power.  And these violent fanatics have such an easy time of it because its easier to do so in this so-called "Holy Land" than anywhwere else in the World.

IMO it is more of which relegion is in control of Isreal.

Nope I'm afraid Israel is no different than anywhere else--its which PERSON is in control.

[Skandery]

Like it or not, that is the way the world is and always has been.

Ah well, guess it's not necessary to aspire to something greater, huh?

Those are tennants you adhere too as well Skandy, unless you become the leader of a world power and change it we ALL are forced to adhere to that fact of life on this Earth.  You can make the choice to not agree or condone that type of behavior but we all have to adhere to it becuase we have as much control over that was we do over the sun.

Unlike Rick, I respect the Rule of Law set forth by our recognized International Governing body---Not occupiers who happen to have bigger guns.  I don't tout those tenants in the construction of my arguments and will never champion the oppressor.  I HAVE made the choice not to agree or condone that type of behavior from ANYONE, whether they're in robes and turbines carrying AK-47s OR Camouflage and helmets in tanks. 

[WayOutWest]

Before the Zionist movement at the turn of the 20th century, there was an extremely small population of Jews in Palestine.  For the bulk of the last 2 millenia this has been the case, Palestine inhabited by Arabs.  Why did the Jews leave the this land to begin with?  If God promised this land to them, why did they ever leave?

   

That's because they were conqured and exiled.  For approximately 700 years the Jews ruled Isreal, they were then conqured by the Bablyonians.  About 1,200 years after the founding of Israel the region was conqured a 4th time, on this occassion by the Romans who named the region Palestine to try and break the tie between Jews and Israel.

So if Christians believe the Bible promises this land to the Jews over and over and over and over, is it their God-given duty to make sure Jews occupy this land for the rest of time.  And if so, doesn't this make them a 3rd party accomplice to the conflict.  So you think this conflict is part of a major war prophecied in the Bible--do you think some Christians are fanatical enough to fan the flames of this conflict to hasten the prophecy?

I already answered this.

Thanks . . . that's all I was looking for.  These chosen people of God who have been promised this holy land are really going to end up right alongside everyone else who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ according to Christians.  We'll just put that aside for now, while we get rid of those annoying Muslims and their unfortunately placed Mosques.

Doesn't matter to Christians who occupies what, it's just prophecied (sic?) that a temple would be rebuilt on the old site, that could be done under Muslim rule.

Jews control Israel but are forbidden to pray on the Temple Mount. . . hmmmm.  No, Israel is bloody because Muslim, Jewish, and Christian Fundamentalist Fanatics fan the flames of Religious differences and holy prophecy to control property, make money, and acquire power.  And these violent fanatics have such an easy time of it because its easier to do so in this so-called "Holy Land" than anywhwere else in the World.

Nope, it's cause Jews are in charge and the Arabs hate it, plain and simple.

Nope I'm afraid Israel is no different than anywhere else--its which PERSON is in control.

It's cause of a Jewish state, it doesn't matter which person is in charge since they were invaded as soon as they declared the existance of a Jewish state.

[WayOutWest]

Ah well, guess it's not necessary to aspire to something greater, huh?

Stop being a baby on a high horse.  None of us are, including Rick, are practicing that type of rule he is just stating the fact that the world is that way and always has been.  Never said it will always be that way.

Unlike Rick, I respect the Rule of Law set forth by our recognized International Governing body---Not occupiers who happen to have bigger guns.  I don't tout those tenants in the construction of my arguments and will never champion the oppressor.  I HAVE made the choice not to agree or condone that type of behavior from ANYONE, whether they're in robes and turbines carrying AK-47s OR Camouflage and helmets in tanks. 

Rick address the farse that is International Governing body.  If we follow the rules then Israel should go back to the Jews, the whole Israel not just the portion they have now.  Give the US back to the Natives and large portions to Mexico.

[Skandery]

That's because they were conqured and exiled.  For approximately 700 years the Jews ruled Isreal, they were then conqured by the Bablyonians.  About 1,200 years after the founding of Israel the region was conqured a 4th time, on this occassion by the Romans who named the region Palestine to try and break the tie between Jews and Israel.

Lets talk about everyone who has live or conquered this "Holy Land".  The Canaanites had control for 2000 years (3300-1200 BCE), the Jews for 700 years (1200-530 BCE), the Persians for 200 years (530-330 BCE), the Hellenistic Empire for 250 years (330 - 60 BCE), the Romans for 400 years (70 BCE - 330 CE), the Byzantines for 300 years (330 - 630 CE), the Islamic Caliphate for 450 years (630 - 1100 CE), the Crusaders for 150 years (1100-1250 CE), the Mamluks for 250 years (1250 - 1500 CE), the Ottomans for 400 years (1500 - 1900 CE), the British for 50 years (1900-1950 CE), and the Israeli's for 50 years (1950-present). 

Seems to me like whole HECK of a lot of people have claim.

I already answered this.

No you haven't! 

Just like you never answered how big of a difference Ben Wallace 20 pound advantage over Bill Russell was.

Doesn't matter to Christians who occupies what, it's just prophecied (sic?) that a temple would be rebuilt on the old site, that could be done under Muslim rule.

Apparently I'm finding out that it DOES matter, in fact, it matters a great deal to people like Baptist Reverand Hagee in Texas that Israel take over the whole of ancient land, no matter the cost!  And he's just one of these fanatical Evangelicals.

Nope, it's cause Jews are in charge and the Arabs hate it, plain and simple.

You keep saying Jews are in charge.  Why haven't they stormed the Temple Mount, destroyed the Dome of the Rock, rebuilt the ancient Temple, and be done with it.  They're in charge, right?

It's cause of a Jewish state, it doesn't matter which person is in charge since they were invaded as soon as they declared the existance of a Jewish state.

If it doesn't matter which person is in charge, why was Yitzak Rabin assassinated by a fundamentalist Jewish terrorist in 1995?

Stop being a baby on a high horse.  None of us are, including Rick, are practicing that type of rule he is just stating the fact that the world is that way and always has been.  Never said it will always be that way.

WOW, you're a sheep, fall in line with the rest of the flock.  Thoughts become words, words become actions, and actions become policy . . . The world never changed because of people who observed injustice and said, "that's just the way the world is and always has been". 

I'm not on some high horse.  I'm simply stating my support of the "Rule of Law", not the "Way of the Gun".

[WayOutWest]

Lets talk about everyone who has live or conquered this "Holy Land".  The Canaanites had control for 2000 years (3300-1200 BCE), the Jews for 700 years (1200-530 BCE), the Persians for 200 years (530-330 BCE), the Hellenistic Empire for 250 years (330 - 60 BCE), the Romans for 400 years (70 BCE - 330 CE), the Byzantines for 300 years (330 - 630 CE), the Islamic Caliphate for 450 years (630 - 1100 CE), the Crusaders for 150 years (1100-1250 CE), the Mamluks for 250 years (1250 - 1500 CE), the Ottomans for 400 years (1500 - 1900 CE), the British for 50 years (1900-1950 CE), and the Israeli's for 50 years (1950-present). 

Seems to me like whole HECK of a lot of people have claim.

That being the case than what claim do the "Palestinians" have on the land, looks like they are behind alot of people in line.

No you haven't!

 

I already answered in the previous post, should I just ask you the same question over and over?

Just like you never answered how big of a difference Ben Wallace 20 pound advantage over Bill Russell was.

Now I see, this discussion has nothing to do with Israel!!!!

Apparently I'm finding out that it DOES matter, in fact, it matters a great deal to people like Baptist Reverand Hagee in Texas that Israel take over the whole of ancient land, no matter the cost!  And he's just one of these fanatical Evangelicals.

If you're going to use extremist to make your case then I can make a case to wipe out all muslims.

You keep saying Jews are in charge.  Why haven't they stormed the Temple Mount, destroyed the Dome of the Rock, rebuilt the ancient Temple, and be done with it.  They're in charge, right?

Just cause you are in charge doesn't mean you go nuts and do whatever you please.

If it doesn't matter which person is in charge, why was Yitzak Rabin assassinated by a fundamentalist Jewish terrorist in 1995?

I thought we were talking about Israel warring with it's neighboors.

WOW, you're a sheep, fall in line with the rest of the flock.  Thoughts become words, words become actions, and actions become policy . . . The world never changed because of people who observed injustice and said, "that's just the way the world is and always has been". 

I'm not on some high horse.  I'm simply stating my support of the "Rule of Law", not the "Way of the Gun".

So tell me, what are you actually doing for your cause and beliefs?