Author Topic: OT: God's Warriors  (Read 8570 times)

Offline Skandery

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OT: God's Warriors
« on: August 31, 2007, 09:24:00 PM »
This is off-topic but I was wondering if anyone on the board had caught any of the episodes of CNN Presents "God's Warriors" hosted by Christiane Amanpour who also did the principle journalistic investigation.  There were three 2-hour episodes focusing on Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.  I've seen all of the one about Judaism but only parts of the Islam and Christianity.  There's quite a lot of information that was news to me and was wondering if anyone who watched the show wanted to discuss it or lend thoughts.
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2007, 02:02:04 AM »
I have watched it and found it to be very informative.

The only thing I don't like about it is some of the language that is used.  Particularly the use of the term "occupied territory" for the West Bank and Gaza.  Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt.

Neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted the parcels of land returned after the war.  Based on what happened on the ground, these are conquered territories, still populated by the ancestors of the people living there prior to 1973.  These people didn't leave the area and move into more secure territory in Egypt or Jordan, and neither of those nations seemed particularly concerned about them or their status.

In the days before the UN, the lines on the map would have been redrawn, like when the US defeated Mexico and took over the Western US, or when the USSR conquered so many territories and incorporated them into the Country, or the case of Tibet, which considered itself a sovereign nation, until it was invaded in the mid 50's by China.  No one calls Tibet occupied territory, and there are no protests about the treatment of the Tibetan people, which makes what the Israeli's do to the Palestinians pale in comparison.

Palestine was the name the British gave to what is now Israel.  There never really was a country named Palestine, it was an occupied British protectorate/colony.  (As was much of the middle east after Britain took the territory from the Ottomans after WW1)

Most countries have a history, either ethnic or historically based.  There are a lot of tribal people who have been wiped out in the history of the world.  But countries created on paper- that's something pretty new as a concept and a reality, and I'm not sure that's a good idea.

War is what draws boundaries, and treaties come afterward as the winner and the looser come to an arrangement.  Or at least that's the way that it had been until the UN came along.

The West Bank and Gaza seem to want to become a country and a large part of the rest of the world seems to think that is a good idea.  Yet since 1973 when Israel was attacked on the Holiest day of the year in Judaism, there has been no stability or sound rule of law in those areas.  The government was largely comprised of terrorists (As was Israel's from the perspective of the British) who became whores- pretending to represent their people, but pocketing a great percentage of the money donated by Europe and the Muslim countries.

Is Palestine a viable state- that is can the people there be organized into a functioning society with the rule of law, a productive economy and relative peace and stability.  It's a reasonable question considering the history of the area. 

Without the UN and without the heavy donations to the area, what is called Palestine would have collapsed long ago.  I wonder if it will ever be able to stand on it's own.  It's one thing to take claim to land, and quite another to maintain control and stability over it.  Being a terrorist or a freedom fighter is one thing, but to become a statesman capable of running a country without using the threat of violence to maintain control is quite another.

Zimbabwe and South Africa come to mind as places that were once peacefull and prosperous, (although very repressive towards the indigenous people) and part of the world's economy.  Today, they are both political basket cases, very dependent on external support to function, and in the case of Zimbabwe a country that is about to implode.

In the good old days a strong country would invade Zimbabwe and conquer it.  Today no-one even seems to think about the plight of the people there, but the suffering is far worse there than anywhere else except Dafur and some parts of Somalia.

The problem with language is that it shapes thought- occupied territory sounds bad.  Like someone is oppressing someone else.  There are people in Mexico called Mexicans who feel they are being oppressed by their government.  There are Chinese in Tibet who feel they are being oppressed by their government. There are lots of people in the middle east besides the Palestinians who have a bone to pick- the Kurds who used to have a territory of their own, but has been carved up into Turkey, Iran and Iraq. No one calls parts of Turkey or Iran occupied territory!  And, then there is Armenia, which is not a country anymore, but a incorporated state in Russia, also not an occupied territory.

So, as I said I had a problem with the language used. But there is a lot of good information in their.  However, in my mind, none of them are God's warriors.  God said Thou Shalt Not Kill, and that is a commandment that Jews, Muslims and Christians are supposed to observe, but very few of those in this peace seem to observe.  How can you be a Warrior for God, if you don't follow his laws? 

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2007, 05:22:33 AM »
How can you be a Warrior for God, if you don't follow his laws? 

When ever this type of discussion comes up that is the end all statement.  The problem is God himself goes to war and it may be news to some but God also HATES, at least that what the Christian bible states.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
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"It would've endured"

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Offline Reality

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2007, 09:10:06 AM »
I like to compare how the general US media portrays Iran etc vs how those who live there say it actually is.  In meeting a woman from Tehran, she ended up coming to a bible study meeting with us.  Subsequently we gave her some literature she wanted to take back to Tehran to her daughter.  I asked if she had to hide it to enter Iran.  She laughed and said no, why?  I said isn't any religion other then the Islamic brand of the current Iran powerlords intolerable?  She said there are other open religions in Iran and they are not all Islamic or psuedo Islamic.  That was news to me.

When CNN replays it I'm going to ask her to watch.
She did say the veil and coverings are a joke in Irans weather.  Apparantly that nonsense was put aside and many women were enjoying being able to wear modern clothing and the young adults were allowed to date and move in public freely.  But the "revolution" in 1979 began to take it back to old times and this latest president ran on a ticket of modernization but was lying thru his teeth.  Soon as he was elected he did what the old geezer clerics ordered him to do and it's back to veils and coverings in 100 degree heat.  No dating for young adults.

So back to the CNN show, yeah i want to hear what she has to say about the CNN Islamic politican woman who told Christine Amoupar the way the clerics run the show was just great.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2007, 07:23:09 PM »
How can you be a Warrior for God, if you don't follow his laws? 

When ever this type of discussion comes up that is the end all statement.  The problem is God himself goes to war and it may be news to some but God also HATES, at least that what the Christian bible states.


Yes, but God is not man!  His rules are for US to follow.  God has different rules.

It is contradictory for God to hate- by definition all that is, is his creation.  If he hates, he hates something that he created!  If you hated something you wouldn't bring it into existence, unless you had to.

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2007, 09:54:22 AM »
How can you be a Warrior for God, if you don't follow his laws? 

When ever this type of discussion comes up that is the end all statement.  The problem is God himself goes to war and it may be news to some but God also HATES, at least that what the Christian bible states.


Yes, but God is not man!  His rules are for US to follow.  God has different rules.

It is contradictory for God to hate- by definition all that is, is his creation.  If he hates, he hates something that he created!  If you hated something you wouldn't bring it into existence, unless you had to.

Contradictory or not, God hates.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2007, 07:30:10 PM »
Those are man's words, WOW.  Never confuse man's limited understanding or the ability to conceptualize thought with an infinite, immortal being.


Offline westkoast

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2007, 08:41:16 PM »
How can you be a Warrior for God, if you don't follow his laws? 

When ever this type of discussion comes up that is the end all statement.  The problem is God himself goes to war and it may be news to some but God also HATES, at least that what the Christian bible states.


Yes, but God is not man!  His rules are for US to follow.  God has different rules.

It is contradictory for God to hate- by definition all that is, is his creation.  If he hates, he hates something that he created!  If you hated something you wouldn't bring it into existence, unless you had to.

I've hated software/networks I have created after the fact.  In this case do you think it is possible to dislike something you created because it did not quite end up the way you planned?  That is what happened to me.

Aside from that...It seems like Christians in this country HATE quite a bit as a whole.  Or is it just American's who are so paranoid, scared, and ignorant that they hate anything and everything that doesn't fit into their own views?
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2007, 04:30:55 AM »
Those are man's words, WOW.  Never confuse man's limited understanding or the ability to conceptualize thought with an infinite, immortal being.



rick,

Read the bible, those are HIS words, not man's.
Malachi 1:2-3
Romans 9:13
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2007, 05:30:19 PM »
That's nonsense WOW,  how do you get that those are the words of God?  The Bible is something written by men, and re-written and re-edited several times over, as it was translated from one language to another. 

I realize that some people claim that God speaks to them, but I would tend to put people like that in the looney bin!

The lack of credibility plagues the bible and many other books to the point where belief in them is an much or more a leap of faith than in believing in God himself!  Whether you're talking about the Old Testament or the New, there are statements that simply do not stand up to scrutiny.

There are a lot of people filled with hate, who claim to believe in the Bible- but the Bible instructs people not to hate, but in fact love thy enemy as they love themselves.  They are hypocrites, and so feeble minded as to fail to see the contradiction within themselves. 

I don't really know, but if some are to be "saved" and some aren't the ones who lack the understanding and discrimination to believe consistently and in harmony with the truth behind the words aren't going to make it!  What kind of a man believes so fervently in his salvation that he would want to exclude others?  So much so as to kill them!? 

I cannot believe that those are God's true people.  Yes, he created them, but they haven't completed the path yet. Those who believe blindly in anything are fools, no matter how those words are couched in phrases like "and God said"! 

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2007, 05:30:16 PM »
That's nonsense WOW,  how do you get that those are the words of God?  The Bible is something written by men, and re-written and re-edited several times over, as it was translated from one language to another. 

I realize that some people claim that God speaks to them, but I would tend to put people like that in the looney bin!

The lack of credibility plagues the bible and many other books to the point where belief in them is an much or more a leap of faith than in believing in God himself!  Whether you're talking about the Old Testament or the New, there are statements that simply do not stand up to scrutiny.

There are a lot of people filled with hate, who claim to believe in the Bible- but the Bible instructs people not to hate, but in fact love thy enemy as they love themselves.  They are hypocrites, and so feeble minded as to fail to see the contradiction within themselves. 

I don't really know, but if some are to be "saved" and some aren't the ones who lack the understanding and discrimination to believe consistently and in harmony with the truth behind the words aren't going to make it!  What kind of a man believes so fervently in his salvation that he would want to exclude others?  So much so as to kill them!? 

I cannot believe that those are God's true people.  Yes, he created them, but they haven't completed the path yet. Those who believe blindly in anything are fools, no matter how those words are couched in phrases like "and God said"! 

You can't pick and chose what you will or won't believe in the Bible. 

No doubt God disapproves of killing, he made it one of the 10 commandments but like I said, it's a tough thing to comprehend when God himself hates and kills.  One thing about the old testament is it was hard to be a servant of God, it was hard to be in existance before Jesus Christ because humans are so unworthy of God's grace, but it's through his grace that man can be saved but you're not going to be saved by killing. 

It can be a very confusing thing to deal with, that's all I'm saying.  Not everyone thinks like you rick, you cannot present a case that can address "faith".  You can't use logic or a logical argument to deal with "faith", it's just not possible.  I've had this discussion a 1000 times, there is not way to logically address "faith".
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Skandery

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 08:44:16 AM »
Quote
It can be a very confusing thing to deal with, that's all I'm saying.  Not everyone thinks like you rick, you cannot present a case that can address "faith".  You can't use logic or a logical argument to deal with "faith", it's just not possible.  I've had this discussion a 1000 times, there is not way to logically address "faith".

Very true.  Rick you can't just say, "the Bible isn't God's word, he didn't write it, man did".  To the people who have faith in the Bible, those men were simple instruments of God.   
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Skandery

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 10:13:19 AM »
I still haven't watched Christianity or Islam in full but Rick's post deals mostly with the Judaism one so I'll address it.

Quote
The only thing I don't like about it is some of the language that is used.  Particularly the use of the term "occupied territory" for the West Bank and Gaza.  Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt.

The term "occupied territory" is used because of the "legal" situation of the land.  The United Nations has clearly dilineated the border for Palestinians to live in within the West Bank and Gaza.  The World Court at the Hague has clearly opined that this is the place where the hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinian refugees may set up a government, build residential and commercial areas, become (for all purposes) a legitimate, contiguous Palestinian State.  The land that Israel "occupied" during the 1967 "Six Day War" has never been recognized as Israeli land by any World Authority or any Geneva Convention.

Quote
Neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted the parcels of land returned after the war.  Based on what happened on the ground, these are conquered territories, still populated by the ancestors of the people living there prior to 1973.  These people didn't leave the area and move into more secure territory in Egypt or Jordan, and neither of those nations seemed particularly concerned about them or their status.

If neither Jordan or Egypt wanted the parcels of land returned than why did attack Israel in 1973 in what is called the "Yom Kippur War" with the stated goal of flushing the Jewish settlements out of the West Bank and Gaza.  You're right about what happened on the ground, though, a foreign invader, funded and supported by a foreign World Superpower, conquered and occupied an entire pre-existing nation called Palestine.  Alot of the people didn't move because Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc wouldn't and couldn't incorporate the sheer number of displaced refugees and a lot of those people frankly didn't want to leave the only land they'd known for thousands of years.

=====================================================

Whose ready for an analogy, I think I have good one. 

Let's say beginning now and for the next 50 years there is a grand Indian movement to re-settle the ancestral land of New York, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Boston, Chicago, etc.  It is the Indians religious belief that these lands must be controlled, ruled, occupied, and populated by Indians.  All of a sudden hundreds of thousands of Indians are moving to these Urban places from remote reservations returning to their lands of yesteryear.  At first the Indians are welcomed with open arms since these liberal, urban-dwelling Americans were educated to feel guilt over what happened to these poor Indians.  Over time, the sense of welcome begins to fade as the sheer numbers of Indians in these Urban areas begins to cause tension with the Americans living there.  Little by little the tensions become more violent.  One day, a technologically advanced Alien species sympathizing with the Indians plight and struggle to return to the homeland (even on religious terms) begins to arm the Indians with their advanced weaponry.  The Americans mobilize the military but are mostly powerless against this new technology the Indians have been gifted.  The other developed nations of the world largely ignore the struggle since they realize that mutual trade and cooperation with this new alien species is more important than those unlucky Americans.  The 100 million Americans in these urbanized areas are now homeless refugees scattered to the rural and underdeveloped areas of the U.S. (the poor Clintons actually have to live in Arkansas, now).  Canada and Mexico do not want to handle the numbers of displaced Americans and neither to American ancestral lands of Germany, Britain, Ireland, etc.  And there are generations of Americans that have known only the United States has "home".  What's worst the Americans have no Democratic rights in this new Indian Regime and no right to form a self-ruling government.  The plucky Americans are beaten but not defeated, filled with conviction they form an underground resistance to overthrow the invaders.  The violent acts of desperation slowly make the Aliens realize that they need to accomodate these backwards, pitiful people.  These Aliens dictate to the Indians that they must draw a border and allow the Americans to live and self-govern in this area.  So the Indians allow the United Nations (under Alien suggestion) to allow the Americans to move into the Great Basin States (Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming) and half of the once great "American City" of New York.  The Americans are rounded up in these areas and after some time cobble together a weak, inefficient government.  Splinter Indian factions descending from the Great Basin Indians (in deference to their lineage and heritage) begin to slowly settle into this newly formed American state even though it is technically against Indian Regime Law to settle into this area.  While descendants of the Iroquois begin to move into the American half of New York, once again against stated Indian law.  Indian statesmen sympathetic to these splinter Indian factions turn a blind eye to this movement.  The weak American government is powerless to stand against these illegal settlers and has little power over those Americans who violently engage Indians in these settlements out of fear of being displaced again.  Meanwhile the violence in these occupied Great Basin States (New America) make it necessary for Indians to patrol this land in Alien War Platforms and setup checkpoints to curb violence but also travel and comfort.  Violence ensues through the once great country of the United States with American Underground Militia in constant warfare with the Indian/Alien War Machine.  The military and economic support of the Indian Regime by the Aliens always ensure the losses to the Americans are exponentially worst than Indians, yet the Americans courageously continue the struggle.   


Who can tell me who the Indians, Americans, and Aliens are in this analogy? 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 10:28:34 AM by Skandery »
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 11:03:57 AM »
Whose ready for an analogy, I think I have good one. 

Who can tell me who the Indians, Americans, and Aliens are in this analogy? 

This was already address in Star Trek Deep Space 9.

You can't use an anology for a scenario that is not really defined.  I've read where there was no such thing as Palestine, it was something created as dig by the Romans.  I've also read where Palestine is a legit ancient land.  Don't know who to believe.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Skandery

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Re: OT: God's Warriors
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 11:34:04 AM »
Quote
This was already address in Star Trek Deep Space 9.

Which episode?

Quote
You can't use an anology for a scenario that is not really defined.  I've read where there was no such thing as Palestine, it was something created as dig by the Romans.  I've also read where Palestine is a legit ancient land.  Don't know who to believe.

You ever heard of the sayings, "Victors write the history books" or how about "frame of reference". 

Would it interest you to know that roughly 1 billion people in this world, TODAY, refer to that tiny 70 mile Easter Mediterranean coast as Palestine and its what it written in text books, maps, and globes and what is taught to children in schools.   

The scenario is clearly defined, WOW, and I think the analogy is quite accurate and detailed.  Just ramp up the religious fervor and scale down the size of the land to roughly a third of a percent and its pretty much the same thing.
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."