Author Topic: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?  (Read 16072 times)

Offline Reality

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2007, 02:21:30 PM »
Parker more then held his own the times he was one on one with Nash and Iverson this years playoffs.  Both ends.  Yes Nash burned him, yes he scorched Nash.  Yes Parker had a clunker game, yes so did Nash.  I would say a draw at best.  Gm 4s 12 pt Spurs lead meltdown and loss i attribute more to StallBall strategy of Lord Pop in 4th combined with Nash turning it on in that 4th.

Game 5 it's sad Phx took two of it's own players out, but it can hardly be squaked that they would have rolled SAS in Gm 5 based on the 1st 4 games and Gm 6.

Toss out the ejection game and it's still 3-2 Parker with full squads.  I still rate Nash above Parker but its hardly a Grand Canyon leap.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 02:22:55 PM »
Of course coaches are influenced by the media- not that the scribes know more about basketball than they do, but they do watch the games, hear the announcers and are influenced by what they say, even if they see the game with more informed eyes.  You better believe that when the coaches vote, they looked at which players were voted for by the fans first, and pick the ones who didn't make it by popular vote, but they think are good enough.

Coaches aren't even great judges of talent- if they were, why do so many first round picks go bust?  People still think of Phil Jackson as a great coach, but now that he's going through a dry spell, people are starting to realize that it was the talent around him that made him a winner.  Red Auerbach never had a bad year when he ran the Celtics. Pat Riley had a lot of bad years running the Knicks and the Heat before he got back to the finals, and he needed Shaq to do it!

And, why bother to send a local reporter to cover the event?  The games were so well covered by the national media that hardly anyone even cares about what their local reporters think.  Phila. had writers covering the event, but added nothing to the coverage that was available.  In fact, I thought that what they wrote was a waste of time and space- and I'm talking about Steven A. Smith who came out of the Philly papers and is one of the biggest windbags out there being a reporter for ESPN. 

(I'm not sure why this is, but a lot of local Phila. people end up in the national news media.  Smith, Palantonio, Dee Lynam, Ron Jaworski ...)

Out of all the players on the Spurs, Tony gets more press than any of them. Not just for his play, but for his fiance.

Now if your an NBA coach and they ask you who the best point is, chances are you're going to pick one that everyone else knows- not an unknown or a newbie like Chris Paul, but a player like Parker who's in the playoffs every year and is on a successful team.  I didn't really know who Andre Miller was until he came in a trade- I figured he was just an extra player on the Nuggets- I had no idea he knew how to play well. He's not good enough offensively to be a top point guard.  Most points don't score more than 10 pts. per game, and they are rarely the top scorer on their team.  Outside of Isiah Thomas, I can't think of another top point who led his team in scoring.  Mo Cheeks was highly reguarded as a point, and at his best was certainly better than Parker- but he could never put up points like Tony, ever.

That's why others and myself bring up players like Iverson who are tweeners.  Tony isn't a classic point, by definition, yet some want to consider him a top 3 point.  TP plays more like a 2 than a 1. 


Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2007, 02:33:30 PM »
How do you determine who is a one and who is a two among the guards?  Iverson is not a shooting guard, he is a point who shoots.  Same thing with Wade.  Kobe is a two, but often dishes out assists like a point.  Bottom line- the line between the point and a two is so blurred that you may as well group them all together!

The point is, he's not even close to being a top 5 guard in the NBA, and even if you focus strictly on a point guard and what a point guard is supposed to do for his team, Andre Miller is much more sound as a point, but not nearly the penetrator that Tony Parker is. 



Shooting holes in your arguments is like shooting fish in  barrel Rick, actually it's easier, because even my daughters could point out the double standard you apply.

In one post you contradict yourself with the ease of spilling Philly cheesesteak grease all over your shirt. By the criteria you just spelled out, you can take Nash and Kidd both out of the running and install Kobe and Wade in their place at 1 and 2, in the words of Parliament, "stick to the script, ya dig?" WE ARE TALKING POINT GUARDS PERIOD, not someone who "dishes out passes like a point", we're not grouping guards together, we're talking POINT GUARDS!!!!

Oh and uhm, Byron Scott was a shooting guard, and Nixon played in the shadow of this incredible rookie named Ervin Johnson I wonder why he was not the best, hmmm.

If you can't argue on point (no pun intended) maybe you should leave the discussion to the grown ups.
Dan

Offline Lurker

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2007, 02:46:41 PM »
Here's another way to look at...

Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating
RNK Player GP Min FG% FT% TS% Ast TO Usg ORR DRR Reb PER
1 Gilbert Arenas 74 39.8 .418 .844 .565 17.4 9.3 29.8 2.3 11.1 6.6 24.07
2 Steve Nash    76 35.3 .532 .899 .654 39.3 12.8 23.8 1.4 9.9 5.8 23.87
3 Chris Paul      64 36.8 .437 .818 .537 32.4 9.2 23.8 2.6 11.3 6.9 22.00
4 Tony Parker   77 32.5 .520 .783 .572 22.6 10.3 25.9 1.7 10.0 6.0 21.46
5 C Billups        70 36.2 .427 .883 .591 30.4 8.5 21.8 1.1 10.0 5.5 21.38
6 Baron Davis    63 35.3 .439 .745 .530 26.9 10.2 26.0 2.5 11.3 6.8 21.02
7 Jason Kidd     80 36.7 .406 .778 .516 37.6 10.9 20.2 5.5 20.8 13.2 19.47

Funny, but I don't see Andre Miller up there.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 02:51:48 PM »
board geeks.  ^ Is there someway to align all that?

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 02:57:55 PM »
Most points don't score more than 10 pts. per game, and they are rarely the top scorer on their team.  Outside of Isiah Thomas, I can't think of another top point who led his team in scoring.

What?!?!?! Every single point we have discussed scores considerably more than 10 PPG, and Davis IS his teams top scorer, careful Rick your exposing yourself....again.
Dan

Offline Lurker

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 03:13:46 PM »
Most points don't score more than 10 pts. per game, and they are rarely the top scorer on their team.  Outside of Isiah Thomas, I can't think of another top point who led his team in scoring.

What?!?!?! Every single point we have discussed scores considerably more than 10 PPG, and Davis IS his teams top scorer, careful Rick your exposing yourself....again.

I know.   ::)   Even Smush Parker averaged over 10 points a game.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 04:17:19 PM »
This is so stupid, we're talking point guards right?  Point Guards are known and defined by their assists first and foremost over everything.  They're not known as scorers. Even their back court mates are referred to as Shooting guards, implying that points don't or aren't supposed to shoot. 

So where does our erstwile candidate for the top 3 point guard rank over the last season for assists, the most important PG stat?  How about 22nd!

Name Games Mpg. Assists   Assists/Game TO TOPG  AP48M Asst/TO

1     
Steve Nash , PHX
   76    35.3    884    11.6    287    3.8    15.8    3.08
2    
Deron Williams , UTA
   80    36.9    745    9.3    246    3.1    12.1    3.03
3    
Jason Kidd , NJN
   80    36.7    736    9.2    213    2.7    12.0    3.46
4    
Chris Paul , NOK
   64    36.8    569    8.9    161    2.5    11.6    3.53
5    
Baron Davis , GSW
   63    35.3    509    8.1    193    3.1    11.0    2.64
6    
T.J. Ford , TOR
   75    29.9    595    7.9    231    3.1    12.7    2.58
7    
Andre Miller , PHI-DEN
   80    37.1    625    7.8    222    2.8    10.1    2.82
8    
Dwyane Wade , MIA
   51    37.9    384    7.5    216    4.2    9.5    1.78
9    
Allen Iverson , DEN-PHI
   65    42.5    468    7.2    268    4.1    8.1    1.75
10    
Chauncey Billups , DET
   70    36.2    502    7.2    140    2.0    9.5    3.59
11    
Raymond Felton , CHA
   78    36.3    545    7.0    230    2.9    9.2    2.37
12    
Jamaal Tinsley , IND
   72    31.0    494    6.9    200    2.8    10.6    2.47
13    
Brevin Knight , CHA
   45    28.3    296    6.6    95    2.1    11.2    3.12
14    
Tracy McGrady , HOU
   71    35.8    458    6.5    213    3.0    8.7    2.15
15    
Kirk Hinrich , CHI
   80    35.5    500    6.2    191    2.4    8.5    2.62
16    
Maurice Williams , MIL
   68    36.3    416    6.1    203    3.0    8.1    2.05
17    
LeBron James , CLE
   78    40.9    470    6.0    250    3.2    7.1    1.88
18    
Gilbert Arenas , WAS
   74    39.8    443    6.0    236    3.2    7.2    1.88
19    
Andre Iguodala , PHI
   76    40.3    432    5.7    261    3.4    6.8    1.66
20    
Earl Watson , SEA
   77    27.9    437    5.7    167    2.2    9.7    2.62
21    
Tony Parker , SAS
   77    32.5    420    5.5    191    2.5    8.1    2.2
22    
Stephon Marbury , NYK
   74    37.1    403    5.4    179    2.4    7.0    2.25

Sorry.  You can't be the 3 best point in the league if you're 22nd in assists!  Heck there are shooting guards in that list (by your definition) who average a lot more in assists than Parker.   Even if Parker plays in a system that doesn't provide the same opportunities, you'd still expect him to put up more than 5 and a half assists per game in the regular season, if he was really a top 3 point.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 04:22:41 PM »
And, while we're at it, out of all guards Tony ranks 14th in scoring:

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME     GP     MPG     PTS     FGM-FGA     FG%     3PM-3PA     3P%     FTM-FTA     FT%
1    
Kobe Bryant , LAL
   77    40.8    31.6    10.6-22.8    .463    1.8-5.2    .344    8.7-10.0    .868
2    
Gilbert Arenas , WAS
   74    39.8    28.4    8.7-20.9    .418    2.8-7.9    .351    8.2-9.7    .844
3    
Dwyane Wade , MIA
   51    37.9    27.4    9.3-18.9    .491    .4-1.5    .266    8.5-10.5    .807
4    
Michael Redd , MIL
   53    38.4    26.7    9.0-19.3    .465    2.2-5.8    .382    6.5-7.8    .829
5    
Ray Allen , SEA
   55    40.3    26.4    9.2-21.0    .438    3.0-8.1    .372    5.1-5.6    .903
6    
Allen Iverson , DEN-PHI
   65    42.5    26.3    8.9-20.2    .442    1.0-3.0    .315    7.5-9.4    .795
7    
Vince Carter , NJN
   82    38.1    25.2    8.9-19.5    .454    1.9-5.3    .357    5.6-7.0    .802
8    
Joe Johnson , ATL
   57    41.4    25.0    9.4-20.0    .471    2.1-5.5    .381    4.1-5.5    .748
9    
Ben Gordon , CHI
   82    33.0    21.4    7.4-16.3    .455    1.9-4.6    .413    4.6-5.4    .864
10    
Kevin Martin , SAC
   80    35.2    20.2    6.3-13.3    .473    1.6-4.2    .381    6.0-7.1    .844
11    
Baron Davis , GSW
   63    35.3    20.1    7.2-16.3    .439    1.3-4.4    .304    4.4-5.9    .745
12    
Ron Artest , SAC
   70    37.7    18.8    6.5-14.9    .440    1.3-3.7    .358    4.4-5.9    .740
13    
Steve Nash , PHX
   76    35.3    18.6    6.8-12.8    .532    2.1-4.5    .455    2.9-3.2    .899
14    
Tony Parker , SAS
   77    32.5    18.6    7.4-14.2    .520    .2-.5    .395    3.6-4.5    .783
15    
Leandro Barbosa , PHX
   80    32.7    18.0    6.6-13.9    .476    2.4-5.5    .434    2.4-2.9    .845

I guess that scoring 18.6 is great for a point guard, provided that there are the assists to go along with it.  I'd expect the #3 point guard to do a bit better than these stats suggest.

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 04:30:13 PM »
My goodness Rick, how could we be so blind! I guess those numbers just demoted Kidd to number 3, because Deron Williams clearly has better raw numbers!!! I guess now the argument is does Tony belong in the top 4. And I see now we're not just including shooting guards but forwards in this list, your continuing expansion of positions to try to shore up your stupid assertions is getting almost comical Rick as long as you're adding Lebron to this list, you might as well add Duncan and Garnett. I love you stat cats that base all your decisions on them and try to paint yourselves as knowledgable, you come across more like your mentor on this board every day, and that is NOT a good thing.

You're truly clueless Rick.
Dan

Offline Lurker

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2007, 04:36:13 PM »
Well, Rick, as YOU said earlier the PG's job is to get his team into the offense.  Parker does a great job of that as...if you want to go back to NBA.com...you will see the Spurs rank in top 5 in offensive efficiency.  Better than many teams that have PGs generating more assists.

Also look at how many of the PGs you rank higher also have lower asst to TO ratios.  Does a lot of good to generate assists if you turn it over a lot also.  Or did you sleep through that part of the Finals where LBJ had as many TO as assists.

Also did you factor in the pace of the team and the offensive scheme that they play?
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 04:41:30 PM »
Rick, I wish you would quit making factually wrong statements and faulty comparisons because you're actually detracting from the tidbits of good analysis you are making.  

As for Dan calling me out to make a concrete opinion, apologies, I hadn't realized I left things so vague and flaccid, let me try and remedy that.  

I called Tony Parker overrated because quite honestly I don't believe he even belongs in the discussion of Top 3 Point Guards in the NBA, yet here we are arguing the possibility.  That in and of itself supports my assertion.  Now the argument of whether Tony Parker is a Top 3 Point Guard for the system San Antonio runs is a completely different undertaking and one I'd possibly agree with.    

As I stated before Tony Parker has many outstanding qualities.  He is amazingly fast with the added bonus of being one of the best players in changing speed and direction on dribble penetration (in fact the only one who is better is Steve Nash and Sam Cassell used to be better in his prime).  He is one of the strongest point guards to play for the sheer amount of abuse he takes when he penetrates.  He also knows how to take hits and how to fall which help immensely in his ability to stay durable.  He has developed a wide array of releases while attacking the basket and the sheer amount of layups he attempts yield an amazingly efficient FG% for a PG.  For the most part, his ego doesn't get in the way of the team concept and he has shown a willingness to learn, as I have observed his mid-range perimeter shot improve under Chip Engelland's tutelage.  

Other than those areas, he is markedly average or below average in all other areas of the game.  His career free-throw shooting is horrendous at 71.6%, especially bad for a guard, and horrible for a point guard.  Although his mid-range game has improved, his long range shooting is exceedingly sub-standard for any guard with the one silver lining being he has quit taking so many attempts:  just two years ago he was 27.6% from three pointer at 2 ATTEMPTS a game!  He's averaged 0.5 attempts the last two years (probably heeding good advice-a strength of his) with a 39.5% average this year, which is a bit of mirage.  It's much liked the 49.5% three point average Rip Hamilton had last year making it look like he was one of the best three point shooters in the NBA when anyone knows he is clearly not.  His average assists are very mediocre for a PG, his career average is 5.4 apg, with a peak two years ago of 6.1 apg--this has regressed the last two years as he has emphasized scoring a little more.  His defense is serviceable at best and costly at worst.  I believe that he is no better a defender than Steve Nash yet Nash get all the bad press about being a horrible defender.  Many things contribute to this general idea.  Tony Parker playing on perhaps the most sound team-oriented defense of the last decade helps the image that he actually knows what he is doing.  Nash having the sieve-like defensive teams of Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni hasn't helped his case in any way.  Parker is generally hidden on defense and the Spurs can afford to hide him.  When Ginobili, Bowen, and Parker are on the floor together, Parker draws the weakest assignment.  When Parker, Bowen, and Finley are on the floor together, Parker draws the weakest assignment.  When Parker, Bowen, and Barry are on the floor together, Parker draws the weakest assignment most of the time.  In the extremely rare cases that Parker, Bowen, and Vaughn are on the floor together.....yep, you guessed it......Parker draws the weakest assignment.  Yet having the privelage of playing on the Spurs and drawing the weakest assignment a lot of the time, he's managed a paltry steal per game across his career, further alluding to his deficient defensive awareness considering he is so fast and quick.  

In the end of all the statistical analysis, anecdotal evidence, and argument posturing, only one thing matters--Winning; of which by virtue of playing on the San Antonio Spurs with the likes of Tim Duncan, David Robinson, and Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker has done a lot of.  He is an integral piece of a winning franchise and will therefore have his strengths aggrandized and his weaknesses more-or-less excused.  I do the same thing; I over-value and overrate Robert Horry because of his 7 championships, is he as good as I think he is, probably not, but all that winning is sure good ammo.  I think its the same phenomenon with Tony Parker.                  
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 05:02:45 PM »
Thanks for clarifying your postion vis a vie this discussion Skander, regardless of how incorrect it is, at least it was based on knowledge, not pulling stats off a web site and saying, "here's the numbers, so there!" You bring up stats without resting yourwhole argument on them.

I suppose the main point here has been forgotten, does he belong in the discussion of top 3 PG, Rick's ridiculous inclusion of first shooting guards and then forwards into his argument sort of clouded that point up, and while you make valid arguments , I tend to look at stats as supplemental to the intangibles that a player brings to the team and in this Finals, Parker broke out, he took over game 1 and was a huge factor throughout the series, at least offensively, and yes you can overlook his mediocre assists and defense when he plays on a a team that does not require him to be the play creator for his team a Steve Nash must be. The argument whether he would flourish in another system is moot until he is in that positon, but his weaknesses would certainly be exposed if he didn't adjust to a new system, I have watched him grow over time and think he would adjust, his lack of ego makes it unecessary in SA, if anything is a knock on him, that wold be it.

I realistically place him 4th or 5th behind Davis or Williams, maybe Billups but he certainly belongs in the discussion at #3 Finals MVP and a breakout series says that, if he falls flat next season, we can revisit this debate but until then...
Dan

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 05:22:31 PM »
My goodness Rick, how could we be so blind! I guess those numbers just demoted Kidd to number 3, because Deron Williams clearly has better raw numbers!!! I guess now the argument is does Tony belong in the top 4. And I see now we're not just including shooting guards but forwards in this list, your continuing expansion of positions to try to shore up your stupid assertions is getting almost comical Rick as long as you're adding Lebron to this list, you might as well add Duncan and Garnett. I love you stat cats that base all your decisions on them and try to paint yourselves as knowledgable, you come across more like your mentor on this board every day, and that is NOT a good thing.

You're truly clueless Rick.

Genius- these stats are from the NBA site, and doesn't distinguish between 1's and 2's.  You know who the points are- and it shows that Parker is more like a poor excuse for a 2 than a good 1.

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Tony Parker, top 3 point guard?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2007, 05:42:45 PM »
It matters little where the stats come from, and I have no doubt they're accurate, it is just a pity you can't come up with anything other than a shotgun approach of posting stats to support you conclusions. Posting stats never tell the whole story but the ill-informe sure love throwing them out as the be all end all on any debate, box score people really are simple minded in that respect. You do not even seem to be bright enough to recompile and narrow down the field of player listed so as to include only those relevent to the discussion at hand, thus rendering your point irrelevent.

Come back when you have something better than comparing forwards to PG's in a discussion of only point guards Rick
Dan