Author Topic: Let's beat a dead horse...  (Read 1808 times)

Offline Lurker

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Let's beat a dead horse...
« on: May 18, 2007, 09:37:54 AM »
From a Suns columnist...

Quote
By Greg White
for HOOPSWORLD.com
May 16, 2007, 17:21 
 
It is now my turn to weigh in on the Stoudemire and Diaw suspension.  Now, before I chime in on it, I want to ask you to be objective.  Don't look at this through your Suns' glasses, but look at it with no bias either way.  That being said, I know the hate emails will come fast and furious.  Not only that, it seems I am in the very small minority who feels this way but here it goes.

The suspensions to both Stoudemire and Diaw were warranted.

There, I said it.

Now, let me duck from all of the hate being hurled my way.

As soon as I saw the play happened, I knew instantly they would be suspended.  The rule is such that a player can't step away from the bench during an altercation.  We all know that.  Players have been suspended for that before.  It doesn't matter if it was to break up the fight, get involved, or protect their teammate.  It is what it is. 

There are those that feel that neither player went very far and that they were just checking on Steve. 

As far as Diaw is concerned, yes I can see that.  He made a step on to the floor, and then made a beeline towards Nash. 

There is no way you can say that Amare was not moving aggressively towards the situation.  He even threw his towel aggressively as he was moving somewhat swiftly towards the scrum before he was pushed back by Iavaroni. 

Now, there are those that say that neither player actually got involved in the situation.  True, but the rule is there to prevent anyone from getting involved.  Let's just say that Iavaroni hadn't pushed Amare back, he moves swiftly to the situation and someone sees him as an aggressor and turns to deck him before they get decked a la' Kermit Washington.  We might have a very serious situation on our hands.  Better yet, let's say he goes and grabs a Spurs player to pull him a way and said player takes exception to Amare grabbing him.  Next thing you know, those two players are getting into it.

Whatever might have happened, didn't because the assistant coaches pushed the players back.  But, sometimes a player may slip past a coach and could get involved where he isn't supposed to.  That is why the rule was there.  It was put in for a reason.  Not to judge intent, or determine a punishment based on how many steps away the player took.

What makes matters even worse is that the players had been warned.  Yesterday on local radio here in Phoenix, both Marc Iavaroni and Alvin Gentry (two Suns' Assistant Coaches) admitted that the NBA had recently reminded the Suns players to not go on the court during an altercation.
Is the rule fair?

Yes and no.  It is fair because of the situations it can prevent.  It isn't because a player who never engaged gets punished.  But engagement isn't the issue.  The issue is a rule being broken.

Should the rule be amended to make a determination based on intent?  Yes, I think it should.  But that change can't be made right now in the middle of a series based on this one situation.  If it is to be changed, it needs to happen in the off-season.

And don't even start about the aggressors (Spurs, specifically Robert Horry), benefiting from one cheap shot.  They are benefiting from two Suns players breaking the rules.

Of course you are going to ask, well what about Duncan and Bowen.  According to David Stern, there was no altercation, therefore walking away wasn't punishable.  The same answer can be used when my colleague on this site points to the head bump between Nash and Parker when many players ventured over to check on their player.  There was no altercation, therefore no need to suspend anyone. 

This rule is of there own doing.  And no, Horry shouldn't have been suspended more than 2 games.  In fact, I think the only reason he was suspended for two games was because Amare and Diaw were going to be suspended so the league said one game was for the body check and the other for the elbow to Raja.  I thought that only 1 game was good enough.  I only say that because of Raja Bell's foul last year against the Lakers.  His clothesline of Kobe Bryant was just as bad if not worse, yet he only received a 1 game suspension.  Horry's foul was along the same line as Bell's.

On a side note, one of the hidden gems of the last game was the Suns getting the benefit of a lot of calls.  It seems the pendulum sort of swung toward the Suns.  They received the majority of the calls that could have gone either way as well as benefited from a few non calls.   What you can expect tonight is for the refs to call the game very close.  That could bode well for Nash who hasn't gotten his fair share of calls for most of the series.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2007, 09:58:16 AM »
You mean 'Let's beat a dead cow'  isn't that a typical Friday night of fun for the kids in SA?

Pretty fair article.  I'd say he was on point with just about everything including re-wording the rule.  I think we all can agree that the rule needs to be re-written to not be so black and white.  The rule itself should stand though.  Like JoMaL said in another post it seems as if they are trying to use the rule to control human emotion.  You cannot do that nor do you want to do that.  None of us NBA fans want to see robots on the floor.  We want to see passion.

I also thought he was spot on about the Raja Bell/Horry call.  Raja Bells' was alot more dirty and cheap yet he got one game.  Horry gets two and to me it only makes it look worse that they really play favorites to Nash.  Both are star players (nash/bryant) so why one for Raja and two for Horry?
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Offline Reality

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 09:58:27 AM »
He had me all the way up until the end.
"What you can expect tonight is for the refs to call the game very close.  That could bode well for Nash who hasn't gotten his fair share of calls for most of the series."

Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 10:05:39 AM »
He had me all the way up until the end.
"What you can expect tonight is for the refs to call the game very close.  That could bode well for Nash who hasn't gotten his fair share of calls for most of the series."


Reality that was damage control.  He wants to be able to walk home without getting shot.  You can carry guns like a cowboy in Arizona so it only makes sense.  What was said in the article probably made alot of PHX residents very mad so to save face he put that in.  You know in case someone runs up on him with a gun he can say "Hay but I think Nash is getting shafted in this series"

He cannot possibly be that fair in the article and think Nash is not getting his share of the calls.  I agree they've missed some fouls on Bowen but he gets the benefit of the doubt more times then not.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 10:05:45 AM »
He had me all the way up until the end.
"What you can expect tonight is for the refs to call the game very close.  That could bode well for Nash who hasn't gotten his fair share of calls for most of the series."


Well that was headed into game 5...and should be expected from a Suns fan.  Nash has been pounded but in a physical playoff atmosphere that should be expected to happen to a inside offensive weapon.  Just like Shaq (few years ago), Duncan, Kobe, Wade, etc.  You aren't going to be banged up as much if all you are doing is cutting occasionally and otherwise milling around the 3-pt line.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2007, 10:08:36 AM »
You mean 'Let's beat a dead cow'  isn't that a typical Friday night of fun for the kids in SA?

No, no, no.  We tip cows but beat dead horses.  Unless your recently immigrated...then you eat dead horses.   ;D
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline SPURSX3

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 11:04:04 AM »
Hey Lurker, I'll see you at the Walmart tonight for the Spurs pep rally. lol!


Phoenix fans are just cry babies.  I'm sorry but they gotta be softer than we ever were.  Did you see that water bottle they through at Tim after game 5???  and than the cursing they did to our guys...mind you these are from the peeps in the good seats near the court!  They even beaned one of our media reps there before a reporter form the Arizona media got security on them for their retarded behavior.  I hope we put them out of their misery tonight.  Go Spurs Go!
On the set of Walker Texas Ranger Chuck Norris brought a dying lamb back to life by nuzzling it with his beard. As the onlookers gathered, the lamb sprang to life. Chuck Norris then roundhouse kicked it, killing it instantly. The lesson? The good Chuck giveth, and the good Chuck, he taketh away.

Offline JoMal

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 11:36:34 AM »
You mean 'Let's beat a dead cow'  isn't that a typical Friday night of fun for the kids in SA?

No, no, no!! Never beat a dead cow. Dead cows, from what I have heard, mind you, have their own way of fighting back.
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline JoMal

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2007, 11:43:43 AM »
I also thought he was spot on about the Raja Bell/Horry call.  Raja Bells' was alot more dirty and cheap yet he got one game.  Horry gets two and to me it only makes it look worse that they really play favorites to Nash.  Both are star players (nash/bryant) so why one for Raja and two for Horry?

The only reason I can think of is the size differential. Horry is a bit bigger (45 lbs biggr, to be precise), then Nash, while weetle Raja Bell is outweighted by 10 lbs by Kobe.

Now, isn't THAT special?   
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.....We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason.....We are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular....We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Offline Lurker

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2007, 12:14:10 PM »
I also thought he was spot on about the Raja Bell/Horry call.  Raja Bells' was alot more dirty and cheap yet he got one game.  Horry gets two and to me it only makes it look worse that they really play favorites to Nash.  Both are star players (nash/bryant) so why one for Raja and two for Horry?

The only reason I can think of is the size differential. Horry is a bit bigger (45 lbs biggr, to be precise), then Nash, while weetle Raja Bell is outweighted by 10 lbs by Kobe.

Now, isn't THAT special?   

Actually he addressed it in his story...1 game for the hit on Nash, 1 game for the high elbow to Raja.

Theoretical question...If Raja hadn't charged towards Horry and Nash just got up, shot the FTs and the game continued would any Suns be suspended?  Wouldn't the call have been no altercation thus no suspensions?
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2007, 12:35:12 PM »
I also thought he was spot on about the Raja Bell/Horry call.  Raja Bells' was alot more dirty and cheap yet he got one game.  Horry gets two and to me it only makes it look worse that they really play favorites to Nash.  Both are star players (nash/bryant) so why one for Raja and two for Horry?

The only reason I can think of is the size differential. Horry is a bit bigger (45 lbs biggr, to be precise), then Nash, while weetle Raja Bell is outweighted by 10 lbs by Kobe.

Now, isn't THAT special?   

Actually he addressed it in his story...1 game for the hit on Nash, 1 game for the high elbow to Raja.

Theoretical question...If Raja hadn't charged towards Horry and Nash just got up, shot the FTs and the game continued would any Suns be suspended?  Wouldn't the call have been no altercation thus no suspensions?

One would think that it probably would have been a flagrant 1 and no suspensions for the Suns since it would have been no altercation.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 12:44:14 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2007, 01:20:35 PM »
D'Antonio:  we want to be like Spurs...

Quote
Classy? Dirty? Boring? Spurs have heard it all now
 By Marc Stein
ESPN.com
(Archive)
Updated: May 18, 2007

 SAN ANTONIO -- You can call his players dirty.

You can make reaching comparisons between his team and yesteryear's Oakland Raiders because of the color schemes they share.

You can even tell Gregg Popovich that the San Antonio Spurs would not be one win away from winning a second-round series as big as the NBA Finals if the league office wasn't helping them out so much.

The Spurs' salty coach won't bother trying to stop you.

"I'd do it, too, if I had your job," Pop says, jabbing lightly at his media audience because he knows we "need stories."

Deep down, or maybe even not so deep, you suspect that all this Spurs-dissing does bother him. It has to. This organization has displayed a serial lack of interest in chasing style points over the years, but the Spurs do cherish their reputation as classy champions.

Put another way: Content as the Spurs were for so long to have virtually no image, it really will leave a wound in South Texas if they're now saddled with a tarnished image.

However …

You don't have to go too deep into the Spurs' playbook to find the instructions about scoffing at the public discourse. Under any circumstances.

"We don't worry about things we can't control here," Bruce Bowen said on the eve of Friday's Game 6, well aware that his tangles with Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash are what got the anti-Spurs bandwagon rolling faster than ever.

"You always want to be respected for what you do. But if we don't get that, there's nothing you can do about it. I really don't pay that much attention to it.

"As far as 'villains,' it's just so funny to me, because I never thought we could be labeled like that. But you can't control what people write or say about you."

You can complain, actually, but Popovich simply won't allow it.

During games? That's something else. The Spurs are still legendary for, uh, pleading their cases to referees.

But when the games are over? Popovich has often said that they can't protest anything else too loudly when they've had "more good fortune than any other team in the doggone league." Which is a valid point for a franchise that has made two trips to the lottery since 1989 and came away with the No. 1 pick both times, first to draft David Robinson, then to take Tim Duncan.

It would appear that fortune smiled big-time on the Spurs again this week, when Robert Horry rerouted Nash into the scorer's table late in Game 4 with the sort of body check that Nash's Canadian countrymen know well. The chaos that ensued, as you might have heard, earned Phoenix's Stoudemire and Boris Diaw one-game suspensions for leaving the bench, with Horry's two-game ban serving as the only Spurs penalty.

So loud was the ensuing national outcry that longtime San Antonio Express-News columnist/Spurs historian Buck Harvey wondered whether San Antonio's Game 5 victory would wind up with a bigger asterisk than the one Phil Jackson famously affixed to the Spurs' first championship in the 1999 lockout season.

"The Spurs are no longer the team that America hates to watch," Harvey wrote. "Now they are the team that America just hates."

Yet it's instructive to note that the Suns -- after everything that's happened through five contentious games and even though they're suddenly the closest thing in the NBA to America's Team -- don't just want to force a Game 7 on Sunday.

They want to force us to call them Spurs-like.

"They do a great job of their system and staying true to form, making big plays in big moments," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni told reporters in Phoenix on Thursday. "That's what we're trying to get. Mental toughness, being lucky, I don't know what it is."

The Spurs, D'Antoni added, just seem to "believe a little bit more."

"All the time," he said.


That includes believing that Bowen's knee to Nash's groin to clear space in Game 3 and Horry's frustration foul on Nash in Game 4 were pardonable acts in the do-anything-necessary quest to win a fourth championship in nine seasons.

Which also includes living with Spurs-are-dirty talk. Pop will brand it "ridiculous" when someone brings it up, but he also won't expend too much energy trying to fight it.

His most creative attempt so far was suggesting that we're all missing the real injustice of Round 2: The fact, namely, that no one is paying any attention to what the Jazz did to Golden State.

"Neither of us is playing any better than Utah," Popovich said of the Spurs and Suns. "But Utah is kind of like San Antonio. They're boring like us."

A boring story, he meant.

You know. How the Spurs used to be seen.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Let's beat a dead horse...
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 08:42:04 AM »
Most of the time when the League makes a high profile ruling, they have a saavy eye towards the pocket book.  They did the exact opposite and probably hurt themselves financially in this case which makes me now wonder whether it was the right thing to do.  One thing is for sure, I feel sorry for the San Antonio Spurs.  Here was a team so dominant that a blind, deaf, half-wit would have confirmed they were pretty much a lock to win the Larry O'Brien trophy this year and now this Spurs legacy is forever tarnished.  The Spurs were the better team, we knew that, the Spurs knew that, the Suns knew that, the world knew that, and they didn't need any perceived help from the league office to do what they were going to do anyways, right.  Now they have the legacy of having advanced on a technicality.  Its a shame.     



===============================================================================
Stern, baby, Stern
 
By Sean Deveney - SportingNews


"I am sick to my stomach. The NBA can't be taken seriously anymore." -- Socks22

Oh, they were not happy, the blog-o-maniacs, the mavens of the message boards. Still, by the time the Western Conference semifinals were over, with the Spurs moving past the Suns in six grueling games -- all but one of which featured a close score and tense late-game moments -- there was little time to reflect.

Yes, San Antonio's series win over Phoenix made for compelling drama -- 13 days were packed with mudslinging, clawing, bruises, blood and, most memorably, suspensions, and it was widely agreed that the West champ, if not the NBA champ, would come from this series. But the league's schedule-makers left no opportunity for consideration of how lasting of an imprint the series had made on the league. "We play Utah in about three hours," Spurs guard Brent Barry joked.
 
It was more like 38 hours, but the Spurs did, indeed, tip off Sunday afternoon in the West finals at home against the Jazz, a young team reaching the postseason's third round for the first time since 1998. The series features intriguing matchups throughout, starting with venerable coaches Jerry Sloan of the Jazz and Gregg Popovich of the Spurs, who have 33 years of experience between them.

It also pits two of the league's best power forwards, Tim Duncan and Carlos Boozer, against each other -- a showdown that went decisively Duncan's way in the opener, as he scored easily over the smaller Boozer in the paint. With Duncan as their Game 1 anchor, the Spurs raced to an 18-point halftime lead before cruising to an 8-point win. There seemed to be no ramifications from the energy-draining Phoenix series.

Unfortunately, over the coming weeks -- and perhaps beyond -- the league figures to feel the ramifications of its heavy-handed suspensions of Suns players Boris Diaw and Amare Stoudemire, who left the bench after a dust-up followed a hard foul by Spurs forward Robert Horry on Suns guard Steve Nash in Game 4. Suspensions are automatic for players who leave the bench during an altercation, and commissioner David Stern insisted the league follow the letter of the law. Horry received a one-game suspension for the hit on Nash and another one-game suspension for a forearm to the Suns' Raja Bell. The Suns lost Game 5 by three points without Diaw and Stoudemire, which left fans to feel, at best, shortchanged and, at worst, outraged.

This is where Stern may have made a huge miscalculation. He was following the rule, but the perception remains that he rewarded Horry for a cheap shot. Worse, this all took place after Stoudemire called into question the Spurs' style, bluntly saying, "I think the Spurs are a dirty team."

Whatever the reality -- whether the Spurs are dirty, clean or only slightly grubby -- the perception remains that the playoffs have been tarnished, decided by men in suits in the New York office, not by players on the floor. The Suns did little to dissuade fans of that notion. "It's tough not to think forever what might have happened if this stupid rule hadn't gotten in the way," Nash said.

That stupid rule will overshadow the rest of the postseason, and the league is likely to pay a hefty price when it comes to television ratings. Remember the 2003 Finals, when ratings hit an all-time low? Next month's Finals figure to be in the same neighborhood, in part because would-be viewers now question the league's integrity.

This is of no concern whatsoever to the Spurs, who weren't -- and shouldn't have been -- making apologies for reaching the conference finals. Fact is, the team has the game's best postseason player, a guy who is, ironically, the NBA's Mr. Clean: Duncan. In Game 6 of the semifinals, he dominated the Suns by blocking a career-high nine shots. It's likely Duncan could have done the same had there been a Game 7. In the conference finals opener against the Jazz, Duncan held Boozer to 7-of-17 shooting, which is exactly why Boozer told reporters before the series, "He's probably the best post player we have in the game. ... What better challenge in basketball than to go up against Tim Duncan?"

Unfortunately, Boozer and Duncan are squaring off under a shadow. Boozer isn't the only one dealing with challenges leading up to The Finals -- Stern is, too.

 
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."